Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

[WhiteHartLane23]

Thanks GreyCrow
I'll try and seek out what Ros and Peter's surname is now , and that will lead me to calling alot of people in the phone book.

Roslyn Kathleen Quinn (b 23 Jan 1954) married Peter Anthony Thompson (unfortunately not the rarest of surnames...)

 

[rbartlett]

Roslyn Kathleen Quinn (b 23 Jan 1954) married Peter Anthony Thompson (unfortunately not the rarest of surnames...)

Haha, I knew it was going to be something like that ,or Smith. lol.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Haha, I knew it was going to be something like that ,or Smith. lol.

Have experienced that many a time.

You could go from McMenamin --> Henley --> Gaffigan --> Walker and have that trending throughout the family tree.

 

[Oliver G]

In case it's not already been mentioned here but Malcolm Worrall's DOB was incorrectly listed in the records. Records indicate he was born on 10/10/1925 but in fact he was born on 10/12/1925.

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/Malcolm Worrall/7159

His daughter confirmed this to AF.

 

[ThePope]

In case it's not already been mentioned here but Malcolm Worrall's DOB was incorrectly listed in the records. Records indicate he was born on 10/10/1925 but in fact he was born on 10/12/1925.

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/Malcolm Worrall/7159

His daughter confirmed this to AF.

Did she confirm that he is still alive?

 

[GreyCrow]

<snip> still to be found

82 Walter "Wally" Hensen Miller b:21/10/1917 Fitz 1943-45

rbartlett have I missed something? A wiki page says he passed in Maroochydore in 1992

• This page was last edited on 21 November 2017, at 03:44.

 

[rbartlett]

rbartlett have I missed something? A wiki page says he passed in Maroochydore in 1992

• This page was last edited on 21 November 2017, at 03:44.

over to you WhiteHartLane23
Have we told the AFL about this entry?

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

over to you WhiteHartLane23
Have we told the AFL about this entry?

No - I didn't even realise he was on this list. (comes of working on too many things in parallel)
I was working on the wikipedia list and confirmed death details via his grand-daughter (Leeanne Miller) on Ancestry

 

[GreyCrow]

No - I didn't even realise he was on this list. (comes of working on too many things in parallel)
I was working on the wikipedia list and confirmed death details via his grand-daughter (Leeanne Miller) on Ancestry

Fixed , thank you

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Can I add a new one in to the mix...
John Lucas (Geelong) - born 27 June 1869
Published date of death is 25 November 1953 in Bellevue Hill, Sydney as per http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18398308

However looking on Ancestry, this John Lucas was born in Dorking, Surrey and in 1897 (when supposedly playing for Geelong) he and his wife had a son Frederick (as per death notice above) in Norwood, Surrey. The whole family can be seen in 1901 & 1911 UK census records. The family moved to Australia in the 1920s so pretty certain he is not the footballer. note: NSW BDM do not list a father / mother on his death record.

Birth record for stated birth date is probably one of
1869, 13852, Lucas John, John, Mooney Mary, Birregurra
1869, 25026, Lucas John Samuel, John, Mccullen Bridget, Sebastopol (died in 1921 in Mooroopna)

 

[35Daicos]

Can I add a new one in to the mix...
John Lucas (Geelong) - born 27 June 1869
Published date of death is 25 November 1953 in Bellevue Hill, Sydney as per http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18398308

Birth record for stated birth date is probably one of
1869, 13852, Lucas John, John, Mooney Mary, Birregurra
1869, 25026, Lucas John Samuel, John, Mccullen Bridget, Sebastopol (died in 1921 in Mooroopna)

Here's the death notice for this fellow (in case you haven't seen it and it's of any help). With the Vic. BDM entry saying he was 52 there should be a fair chance that this is the right one (27-06-1869 to 09-10-1921):- https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4639293

Here's a bit more on this chap (still don't know if he's the one you're after), no wonder it says "passed away suddenly" in the death notice!:- https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/174158892 (28 Nov. 1921)

It does also say (again) that he was 52 at the time of his death.

 

[GreyCrow]

Here's the death notice for this fellow (in case you haven't seen it and it's of any help). With the Vic. BDM entry saying he was 52 there should be a fair chance that this is the right one (27-06-1869 to 09-10-1921):- https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4639293

Here's a bit more on this chap (still don't know if he's the one you're after), no wonder it says "passed away suddenly" in the death notice!:- https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/174158892 (28 Nov. 1921)

It does also say (again) that he was 52 at the time of his death.

I saw these entries and cant see any mention of a sporting career, knowing of course there was a distinct lack of interest as opposed to todays efforts.

Another interesting point or at least something to consider is the doctors inquest

On opening the body, the heart was found flabby and exceedingly degenerated with fat; liver very pale and fatty, rather friable,and somewhat enlarged; stomach
large and distended; kidneys very friable, large and fatty; signs of old pleurisy on both, lungs

Not suggesting old footballers would not suffer these maladies and at 52 these symptoms could be present, also understanding training standards are much much different today , but it seems at odds , along with no mention of a sporting career . Born in Sebastopol and dying in Mooroopna both a long way from Geelong. I would hesitate to include this person.

The John Lucas to John and Mary Mooney is one I am looking at now. Registered at BIRREGURRA which Google tells me is close to Colac Shire and Surf Coast Shire

Added: There are 2 marriages of a John (only name) in 1897/98

One to a Maggie Clyde Cadzow in 1897
One to an Eliza Dellacca in 1898

There is a death notice of Maggie Clyde Lucas in 1955 with a reference to late John.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article71874967
A further 1936 notice says they are livin g in Fitzroy and John is alive. There is mention of Willie ( the below in this notice to link) http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205247876
But an earlier notice on the death of a son William lists them living in Geelong in 1912
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article150788052

So a possible death between 1936 and 1955

 

[GreyCrow]

To help clarify a sporting J Lucas living in the Birregurra area we have a John Lucas asking for permission to erect a swing gate from the Winchelsea council 1893
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article150285348

We then have a J Lucas picked for a Winchelsea football team 1892 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article150769278

Though this 1894 notice introduces a Joseph Lucas ie J Lucas http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article150359776
Though this Lucas is a few years older http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article149934651

Late 1894 playing for Deans Marsh ( note a goalkicker) http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article150366055

J Lucas also very athletic with numerous references to Hurdles through the 1890s this being one http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article149930977

Deans Marsh match on the Birregurra oval with J Lucas once again goalkicker http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article150499529

Athletics and a J Lucas of Birregurra http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article149738474

According to the AustralianFootball site Lucas plays only the 1 game and thats v Essendon as named in this team 1897
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article149740971
And why goalkicking is important to identify Lucas http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article149741100 ' Joe McShane , Lucas and McKay each having shots on goal but scoring minor points'

Minor council issues but identifying J Lucas Birregurra http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article150117732

No football in 1898 but still hurdling http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article150368492

Played and scored in this game for Winchelsea in 1899 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article150445676

Though you would think for such an athlete he could have chased this bloke down , now in Geelong West - though this could be John Sr
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article147721297

1902 still kicking goals for Winchelsea http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article147894861

It might seem as if there is a John Lucas still in Birregurra but I surmise , due to the Lease instructions , he lives elsewhere ie Geelong West
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article148715235

So what is the meaning of all this? I really dont think it provides any conclusive proof but I do think it ties up the sporting history of a J Lucas born 1869 in the Geelong peninsula , his position on the field for various local clubs and his position in his one game for Geelong. Is this the right one? I shall leave that for further exploration but I would be exploring this man more

 

[ThePope]

Interesting thing about Lucas is that he only played Geelong's first ever VFL game, but was named for the second, but apparently didn't turn up:
"The Geelong, who had 17 players out of the 25 chosen to represent the club, had to complete the team of 20 by including some enthusiastic followers
of the club's fortunes and misfortunes" although another report says that "Good men had to be left at home by Geelong,"
By comparing the 24 (not 25) named in the Geelong Addy on Friday against the 20 in the AFL tables list, I only see 2, not 3 who played but weren't named - Stan Enfield (23 year old who kicked 2 goals and played the next 2 weeks) and Jack Sharkey, a 23 year old who never played again. Were they the "enthusiastic followers called on to make up the numbers, or is the AFL Tables list incorrect? 2 other players, 17 year old Bill McKay and 21 year old Bob Paterson apparently played in the first 2 games, but never again.

 

[the croucher]

Interesting thing about Lucas is that he only played Geelong's first ever VFL game, but was named for the second, but apparently didn't turn up:
"The Geelong, who had 17 players out of the 25 chosen to represent the club, had to complete the team of 20 by including some enthusiastic followers
of the club's fortunes and misfortunes" although another report says that "Good men had to be left at home by Geelong,"
By comparing the 24 (not 25) named in the Geelong Addy on Friday against the 20 in the AFL tables list, I only see 2, not 3 who played but weren't named - Stan Enfield (23 year old who kicked 2 goals and played the next 2 weeks) and Jack Sharkey, a 23 year old who never played again. Were they the "enthusiastic followers called on to make up the numbers, or is the AFL Tables list incorrect? 2 other players, 17 year old Bill McKay and 21 year old Bob Paterson apparently played in the first 2 games, but never again.

A glance at the general football columns in the Geelong Advertiser during 1897
shows the surnames Enfield and Sharkey both playing fairly regularly with Geelong West.
Unfortunately, no initial or given names are used in the reports.

 

[35Daicos]

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/88434228 (17 Jul 1896)

In 1896 Geelong played a game against Colac District Association and Lucas was named among the better players for the Colac side. It also says "I have been informed that Hearn and Lucas were asked to play some trial matches with the pivotonians."

 

[35Daicos]

Interesting thing about Lucas is that he only played Geelong's first ever VFL game, but was named for the second, but apparently didn't turn up:
"The Geelong, who had 17 players out of the 25 chosen to represent the club, had to complete the team of 20 by including some enthusiastic followers
of the club's fortunes and misfortunes" although another report says that "Good men had to be left at home by Geelong,"
By comparing the 24 (not 25) named in the Geelong Addy on Friday against the 20 in the AFL tables list, I only see 2, not 3 who played but weren't named - Stan Enfield (23 year old who kicked 2 goals and played the next 2 weeks) and Jack Sharkey, a 23 year old who never played again. Were they the "enthusiastic followers called on to make up the numbers, or is the AFL Tables list incorrect? 2 other players, 17 year old Bill McKay and 21 year old Bob Paterson apparently played in the first 2 games, but never again.

A glance at the general football columns in the Geelong Advertiser during 1897
shows the surnames Enfield and Sharkey both playing fairly regularly with Geelong West.
Unfortunately, no initial or given names are used in the reports.

Geelong played a game against Ballarat on 1 May (a week prior to the Rd. 1 game) and "Sharkie" was named in the squad, so presumably Sharkey wasn't just one of the "enthusiastic followers of the club's fortunes and misfortunes" when he came into the Rd. 2 team at the last moment:- https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/149740630 (30 Apr 1897)

Enfield and Sharkey were named in the Geelong West squad for the game played on the day of the VFL Rd. 2 game:- https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/149741323 (14 May 1897)

Edit: The Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers says Jack Sharkey was "From Geelong West."

Sportsman named Lucas among the best players for Geelong in the rd. 2 game. He obviously wasn't meant to be playing (as far as today's records are concerned), so most likely a mistake!:- https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/227728888 (18 May 1897)

 

[ThePope]

No - I didn't even realise he was on this list. (comes of working on too many things in parallel)
I was working on the wikipedia list and confirmed death details via his grand-daughter (Leeanne Miller) on Ancestry

Another one that you seem to have updated, but wasn't on this list, is Ken McKernan. Col Hutchinson thought he was alive and one of the few AFL centurions in 2014, but you edited his Wikipedia article to say he died in September 2009 in Surfers. Was this also an Ancestry discovery, and has Stephen Rogers been informed?

 

[the croucher]

Another one that you seem to have updated, but wasn't on this list, is Ken McKernan. Col Hutchinson thought he was alive and one of the few AFL centurions in 2014, but you edited his Wikipedia article to say he died in September 2009 in Surfers. Was this also an Ancestry discovery, and has Stephen Rogers been informed?

Unfortunately this is one of those Ancestry family tree entries which is almost certainly correct...but does not cite any source...and I also notice does not give precise date of death.

A check of Herald-Sun tributes, and a separate check of Gold Coast Bulletin tributes does not show any entry for McKernan,
nor does any entry show up on the Ryerson index.

 

[35Daicos]

Another one that you seem to have updated, but wasn't on this list, is Ken McKernan. Col Hutchinson thought he was alive and one of the few AFL centurions in 2014, but you edited his Wikipedia article to say he died in September 2009 in Surfers. Was this also an Ancestry discovery, and has Stephen Rogers been informed?

I'd say the AFL has this one in their records, as AFL Record Season 2017 (page 721) lists these four players in the OLDEST LIVING LEAGUE PLAYERS section:-
Max Wilson (9/7/1914)
Ken Feltscheer (9/6/1915)
Keith Rae (30/7/1917)
Bob Sayers (26/10/1917)

Ken McKernan (9/8/1911) wasn't on the list in the 2016 and 2015 books either.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

I'd say the AFL has this one in their records, as AFL Record Season 2017 (page 721) lists these four players in the OLDEST LIVING LEAGUE PLAYERS section:-
Max Wilson (9/7/1914)
Ken Feltscheer (9/6/1915)
Keith Rae (30/7/1917)
Bob Sayers (26/10/1917)

Ken McKernan (9/8/1911) wasn't on the list in the 2016 and 2015 books either.

That was my assumption - I have just sent an email to Ken's daughter in Canberra to obtain the exact date of death but had confirmed from a niece that he had passed away in 2009. (I probably should have just asked Stephen Rodgers for the exact date)

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Max Wilson (9/7/1914)
Ken Feltscheer (9/6/1915)
Keith Rae (30/7/1917)
Bob Sayers (26/10/1917)

Now whittled down to 3 with Feltscheer's death at 102 years old this past fortnight.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

That was my assumption - I have just sent an email to Ken's daughter in Canberra to obtain the exact date of death but had confirmed from a niece that he had passed away in 2009. (I probably should have just asked Stephen Rodgers for the exact date)

Reply from Ken's daughter... he definitely passed away in Surfers Paradise in 2009
"I have forwarded your email to my brother who holds the death certificate but I think he died on 1st. Oct. 2009. His ashes are scattered behind St. Ninian’s Uniting Church, Lyneham, ACT. cheers Pat"

 

[GreyCrow]

I'd say the AFL has this one in their records, as AFL Record Season 2017 (page 721) lists these four players in the OLDEST LIVING LEAGUE PLAYERS section:-
Max Wilson (9/7/1914)
Ken Feltscheer (9/6/1915)
Keith Rae (30/7/1917)
Bob Sayers (26/10/1917)

Ken McKernan (9/8/1911) wasn't on the list in the 2016 and 2015 books either.

Mac Wilson in August 2017

Blueseum has it noted and Herald Sun also notes his passing

WILSON, Andrew McDonald (Mac) 9.7.1914 - 9.8.2017

Bob Sayers

SAYERS. Robert Walter Henry 26.10.1917 - 28.11.2016

 

[35Daicos]

Mac Wilson in August 2017

Blueseum has it noted and Herald Sun also notes his passing

WILSON, Andrew McDonald (Mac) 9.7.1914 - 9.8.2017

Bob Sayers

SAYERS. Robert Walter Henry 26.10.1917 - 28.11.2016

Bloody hell! That section of the book will obviously have a new look come next year's edition!

It looks as if Keith Rae is still going at least:- http://blueseum.org/Mac+Wilson
"For 10 days Carlton had two former players that were aged 100 with the other being Keith Rae who turned 100 on July 30, 2017."