Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

[35Daicos]

Searching for clues on Ivan Clues...

The only record of him in any trees on Ancestry shows a different birth date to what accepted records have. The league / Encyclopedia has Clues born on 10 May 1929, while this tree has him born on 5 October 1929.

The following is a bit of speculation on my behalf, but given Ancestry doesn't allow living people to be searched in trees, and this is the Clues family tree, my mind is turning to one of two conclusions: either Clues has died and the tree owner hasn't listed or made public his death date (it is a private tree), or the tree owner is not particularly au fait with Ancestry and has added Clues manually recently without unticking the 'deceased' button which Ancestry would presume when you are adding someone born in 1929. Not sure, but there might be more out there.

View attachment 1912774

I guess the only other explanation is that no one knows his death date, if it's already happened?

See below: I'm not convinced the Ivan Noel Clues from Collingwood and the Ivan Clues from Queensland are the same guy.

View attachment 1912780

There really is nothing else in the Ancestry records to go off, other than the fact he got married in 1949:

View attachment 1912781

The only thing making me think that the Collingwood and Queensland person might be one and the same is that it appears Clues didn't list his middle name in his marriage certificate, and it was added by an Ancestry user after the fact, so perhaps he was inconsistent in applying his middle name to official documents.

Regardless, I'm none the wiser right now.

P.S. Shout-out to Collingwood Forever who have written a wonderfully detailed article on a two-game player!

His first marriage can’t have lasted long (even in 1954 he's not living with his spouse), and (if it is him) he ended up living with (and almost certainly married to) Dawn Hope (nee Cummings) at Mount Isa, Queensland. The electoral roll had them together there in 1977 and 1980. She died and was buried at Mount Isa in 1982.

I chatted with the Collingwood club historian about Ivan Clues a while back, and it's simply not known as to whether or not he is still alive.

 

[GreyCrow]

Surname:HEARN
First Names:William
Death Date:03-Nov-1949
Age:35
Gender:M
Marital Status:N
Place of Death:Nr Oodnadatta
Residence:No fixed abode
Relative:Not Recorded
District:Frome
Book/Page:747/5783
Notes:Not Recorded

 

[Gibbsy]

Surname:HEARN
First Names:William
Death Date:03-Nov-1949
Age:35
Gender:M
Marital Status:N
Place of Death:Nr Oodnadatta
Residence:No fixed abode
Relative:Not Recorded
District:Frome
Book/Page:747/5783
Notes:Not Recorded

Holy s**t.

It’s him! No fixed abode, no relatives, age matches, DOD matches (essentially), Oodnadatta matches. I reckon we can call this one!

Thank you team! One of our best finds yet, I reckon

 

[rbartlett]

Let me play devil's advocate here for a moment.

Help me understand the main evidence that connects the Roger Musgrove "Bill" Hearn info we knew when we started (ie: birthdate date 1913/1914, WW2 ) to that specific Ancestry tree/Genealogy page.

Because what you've found is the Genealogy data of the Roger (Distance) Hearn tree, right?
So what connects that Tree to the Bill Hearn footballer.

 

[Gibbsy]

Let me play devil's advocate here for a moment.

Help me understand the main evidence that connects the Roger Musgrove "Bill" Hearn info we knew when we started (ie: birthdate date 1913/1914, WW2 ) to that specific Ancestry tree/Genealogy page.

No probs, the list posted here gives a summary and links of all the research points on Hearn up until yesterday. Sorry, I’m on my phone currently, but happy for someone else to join the dots on my behalf. I think the breakthrough was probably the recent discovery of the manual “hand-written” tree that had names, dates and siblings found nowhere else, and then we got actual verbal confirmation from a family member of Hearn’s passing near Oodnadatta on or around that date

 

[rbartlett]

No probs, the list posted here gives a summary and links of all the research points on Hearn up until yesterday. Sorry, I’m on my phone currently, but happy for someone else to join the dots on my behalf. I think the breakthrough was probably the recent discovery of the manual “hand-written” tree that had names, dates and siblings found nowhere else, and then we got actual verbal confirmation from a family member of Hearn’s passing near Oodnadatta on or around that date

I see your earlier list with the summary, so thank you for that Gibbsy.
What's everyone's thoughts, and then if there's no major objection I can make Rodgers aware of these posts.

I guess an alternate question to ask is, is there any major info on this Hearn Genealogy post/Ancestry Tree that doesn't match up with what we already knew about Hearn. (Or, if there are discrepancies are they rather minor, ie: dates out by a year or so, that they can be concluded as just being an error in standard family tree building)

 

[GreyCrow]

Just tome more irrelevant info

IN the matter of the estates of the undermentioned deceased persons:- Hearn, WiUiam, late of Oodnadatta, labourer.

From SA Government Gazette Vol1page401

Nothing to be gained from that

 

[rbartlett]

Just tome more irrelevant info

IN the matter of the estates of the undermentioned deceased persons:- Hearn, WiUiam, late of Oodnadatta, labourer.

From SA Government Gazette Vol1page401

Nothing to be gained from that

Ah but you are wrong GreyCrow, there is something very important to be gained from that piece of information you posted.

For you see, in William Hearn's ww2 service record, he writes his occupation as .... labourer

Gibbsy
Am I right to say the only outstanding piece of confusion is that apparently Hearn was not listed as deceased in his brother's death notice in 1974. (We could lodge an argument that the paper forgot to list him as deceased, or perhaps the person who put the notice in didnt know he had died decades earlier seeing his movements were pretty vague)
If the other posters agree with your finding re: William Hearn, then I can make Rodgers aware.
Can you just do a summary post so we've got a clear paragraph on what the new Hearn info is to be (ie: name, dob, dod, place of death etc) for Rodgers to see as a summary. Thank you

 

[Gibbsy]

Can you just do a summary post so we've got a clear paragraph on what the new Hearn info is to be (ie: name, dob, dod, place of death etc) for Rodgers to see as a summary. Thank you

No worries. We can take it from the top in a linear fashion – easiest to follow along. So let's first start with Hearn's DOB and name. These are intertwined because of the way he changed them to suit his agenda, based on what he was doing or where he was going.

The more I researched and sourced along the way, the more I found, including a heap of stuff that's never been revealed before! I know this has turned into a bit of an essay/article, but it can now be used as a reference point to illustrate the colourful life of Bill Hearn.


Early life

Roger Musgrove Hearn was born on 4 March 1914. This is the DOB currently listed on Australian Football as well as in the latest edition of The Encyclopedia, but other sources such as AFL Tables and Wikipedia list 4 March 1913. The reason for this discrepancy is because Hearn himself, when enlisting in the Australian Army for WWII, gave a DOB of 4 March 1913 and a name of William Hearn, for reasons we will soon get to.

The Victorian BDM listing for Roger Musgrove Hearn shows 1914, born in Bungaree (near Ballarat) to Richard William Hearn and Sarah Hearn (nee Dempsey). This is the definitive source.




Local football in Ballarat

Hearn – who goes by the nickname "Bill" – begins playing football in the Ballarat league. He plays for Golden Point in 1932, and then joins South Ballarat in 1933, playing alongside his brother Donald Michael Hearn (who we learn was better known as "Mike"). You will notice that the newspaper reports of these times are a bit inaccurate with first initals, but there are plausible explanations here:

• Roger Musgrove "Bill" Hearn is known to everyone as Bill, which is almost always a contraction of William in those days; journalist who doesn't know any different lists him as W. Hearn.
• Donald Michael "Mike" Hearn is known to everyone as Mike, which is almost always a contraction of Michael; journalist who doesn't know that he goes by his middle name lists him as M. Hearn. Note that by 1935, at least one journalist knew that "Mike" was a nickname.

Anyway, back to Bill Hearn. Early in 1934, he tries out at Richmond for the first time. Supposedly, a lot of league clubs are interested in "Mike" Hearn instead. Bill transfers to Lascelles to play alongside his brother John Hearn. Mike stays at South Ballarat and wins a premiership that year. John gets rubbed out for 12 months for abusing an umpire. There isn't a great deal of info on the Mallee league in 1934 on Trove to learn how or why this happened, but Bill returned to play with South Ballarat later in 1934, and can be seen alongside brother Mike in this picture. Bill would go on to play in that same premiership as brother Mike.


League football for Richmond

Bill Hearn was transferred to Richmond in February 1935 under the name W. Hearne (note: the extra 'e' was listed in previous editions of The Encyclopedia as well as P. Hogan's 1996 tome The Tigers of Old). Richmond was still waiting for the clearance to be processed by May of that year. Hearn eventually made his senior debut in late June, a Rd 9 win over Hawthorn. He played 6 consecutive games in the firsts for a total of 5 goals. He also played 8 reserves games for Richmond through this time, for 7 goals.


Return to local football; trouble with the law

In early 1936, Bill Hearn had completed almost a year of living in Richmond, and was listed under the name Roger Musgrove Hearn in that year's electoral rolls as a labourer.



By May 1936, he had been cleared back to South Ballarat from Richmond. Later that month, Hearn went on trial in Ballarat for a break-and-enter as well has stealing some watched. The article listed him as Roger Musgrove Hearn, "a prominent player in the Ballarat Football League and formerly a League player". It goes on to quote the victim's remarks from the morning of the attack, where the victim says, "What's the strength of you being her [sic] 'Bill'?" This confirms that Roger Musgrove Hearn, Bill Hearn and W. Hearn are one and the same. The only inaccuracy in the article is listing Hearn's age as 24; he would have been 22 at the time, although one wonders whether Hearn himself even knew how old he was.

This inaccuracy is corrected in the follow-up article from his trial two weeks later in June. Roger Musgrove Hearn is listed as 22 years old, a labourer, who lived in Ligar St, Ballarat. He pleaded guilty, and in the trial, it was described how Hearn was of exemplary character before he went to Melbourne 12 months prior to try out with Richmond. Since his return, "it was stated, Hearn seemed to have become wilder. He frequented billiards saloons, and had formed the occasional habit of drinking spirits".

Hearn was given a sentence of six months' hard labour, but that would be suspended if Hearn paid a £25 bond, abstained from drinking for six months, and was of good behaviour for two years.


Move to Minyip; more trouble

In 1937, Bill Hearn was drawn by the lure of his brother Mike and joined Minyip, where Mike had captain-coached the side the previous season (Mike was listed in this article as Mick Hearn). The media spoke of how the pair were "proving worthy acquisitions" in the Wimmera league, and were described as "still great players". The Hearn brothers reprised their role as star players in 1938, with Bill putting in solid performances each week, even while Mike was suspended for four weeks for belting an opponent after the final siren!

It appears Bill Hearn was looking for a change of scenery in early 1939 – this article listing applications for the role of playing coach at Terang shows that a "W. Hearn, Richmond" put his name forward. Perhaps Bill thought listing his club of origin as a league club may have given him a better change at getting the gig. Alas, he was unsuccessful, and so continued to ply his trade at Minyip alongside brother Mike. By this stage, Bill Hearn was probably the best player on Minyup's list.

Then it all came crumbling down again. In the wee hours of a Saturday night / Sunday morning in August 1939, after Minyip had been beaten heavily by Stawell to the tune of 107 points earlier that day – with Bill Hearn in the best players for kicking two goals – Bill and his younger brother Leslie Mannix Hearn were arrested by police. Bill, who appeared to give his name as William Hearn in the article (aged 25 – this matches up with the 1914 DOB), was charged with three counts of shop breaking, while Leslie was charged with one count of receiving money.

The pair appeared in Minyip Police Court on 22 August 1939. Bill Hearn (still listed as William Hearn in the article) pleaded guilty to all three charges, while the charge against Leslie Hearn was dismissed. Bill was ordered to appear at Horsham General Sessions in September. When he did, the result was not favourable. Named in this article as Roger ("Bill") Hearn, he again pleaded guilty to all three charges and was "sentenced to six months' imprisonment with hard labour on each charge, the sentences to be concurrent." Hearn also admitted to his prior conviction "for house breaking at Ballarat" back in 1936, where he was released on bond.


Out of gaol; leaving Minyip

Hearn would have completed his time in prison by around 8 March 1940, a few days after his 26th birthday. He wasted no time in searching for a new football club, given it was fairly obvious he would be accepted back at Minyup after his indiscretions. Hearn was in the form of his life, having won the Wimmera league goalkicking award in 1939 with 41 goals (ref: The Tigers of Old). And so he decided he would have another crack at the big time.

On 2 April 1940, Bill Hearn trained at Geelong, having "developed considerably since his former appearance in League ranks". Listed as Bill Hearn and with an age of 24, this was in fact two years younger than his actual age of 26 – quite possibly a ploy from Hearn to avoid being rejected on account of being too old. Another report the following day described "B. Hearn from Minyip" as an "additional recruit" to Geelong, and that he was a "half-back of distinct promise". Even after tearing apart opposition defenders for years at Minyip, it seemed Hearn was willing to join them in a last-ditch attempt to revive his big league hopes.

The following week, Bill's younger brother Leslie came down from South Ballarat to join Bill for a run at Geelong training. But less than a week later, Geelong had conducted the first reduction of its training list, and neither Hearn brother was listed in the squads for Geelong's 'blue' vs. 'red' intra-club practice match to be played on 20 April 1940. And so Bill went west, joining Coleraine in the Western District Football League (listed here as "Hearne, from Minyip) for the 1940 season, which began on 18 May.

Hearn was a major asset to the Coleraine side. In one powerful mid-season performance, he booted four goals and was "outstanding as a utility man". Coleraine was the team to beat, and Hearn put the team on his back, eventually leading the side to that year's premiership with a six-goal haul in the grand final, where he was described (this time correctly as Bill Hearn) as "in rare form in attack".


Joining the Army

Having climbed the mountaintop in 1940 with a premiership at Coleraine, Bill Hearn turned his attention to joining the Second AIF. On 11 August 1941, a William Hearn enlisted with the Australian Army, giving his DOB as 4 March 1913. Closer inspection of Hearn's war records paint two pictures: one, that "William Hearn" is the Roger Musgrove "Bill" Hearn who had spent most of his life as a decorated local footballer, and two, that Hearn had to conceal his identity to be accepted into the force.

On Hearn's attestation form, he gives his name as "William Hearn", born near Ballarat on 4 March 1913. He describes himself as a single labourer, and whose next of kin was his mother Sarah Ann Hearn, who lived in Peel Street, Ballarat North. The matches are obvious:

• Hearn gives the name "William", likely as it comes conveniently to him as an extension of Bill, his nickname
• He is listed as a labourer, identical to his occupation in the 1936 Richmond electoral roll and his 1936 Ballarat trial
• He gives the birth date 4 March 1913, exactly one year earlier than his actual birth date.

Most poignantly, and the reason behind all of this shady behaviour, is that Hearn solemnly declares that he has never been convicted by a civil court.



To do so would surely have ruled out his chances at joining the Army. And hence we have the true reason for such a seemingly minor change in identity, that managed to fool those vetting the voluntary applications. While Roger Musgrove Hearn had been convicted on two separate occasions, "William Hearn" was as clean as a whistle – because he didn't exist.


Four years at War

Hearn is no angel during his time in the Second AIF. While he eventually worked his way up to a rank of Private, it didn't come without a number of misdemeanours along the way. According to Hearn's service and casualty forms, I counted at least 16 listed offences, ranging from disobeying a lawful commander to public drunkenness, and a further two Court Martial trials in December 1942 and August 1943, where in the former he was scheduled to 60 days' field punishment without pay.

It is obvious, and saddening, that Hearn was having a tough time of it whilst on duty. One can only assume that his struggles with alcohol addiction had returned. "William Hearn" discharged from the Army on 21 December 1945, having served a total of 1567 days, or a bit more than 4-and-a-quarter years. Despite this, Hearn gave his date of birth as 4 March 1914 and age upon completion of the form on 20 September 1945 as "31 yrs, 6 months", which would of course mean that he had forgotten to use his fake DOB/age and gave his actual age. The completing officer, noticing this error, 'corrected' his birth year of 1914 to 1913 after the fact.


Move to Carnegie; charged yet again

There is little to no record of Hearn's movements, football or otherwise, following his discharge in December 1945. An "R. Hearn" (sometimes "Hearne") played for Traralgon in the Central Gippsland league in 1946, was named best on ground in the grand final in Traralgon's thumping premiership win, and was awarded both the Fallon Trophy for best defender in the game and another trophy for most serviceable player was indeed Randall Hearn – not Roger, as Randall continued to play on into the next decade.

What we do know, for certain, is that Bill Hearn was caught by the law once again, this time under his 'new' name, "William Hearn". On 24 December 1947, Hearn – listed as 33 years of age and a labourer of Clifton Street, Carnegie (again, a match for both age and occupation) – was charged at North Melbourne court. A little over a month earlier, on 11 November 1947, he attempted to bribe a police officer with a £1 note after he had been arrested on another charge. The judge said "Hearn's clumsy action appeared to be the result of liquor". Hearn's mother, Sarah, had died on 17 July 1947, less than four months before his indiscretion.

Hearn's lawyer appealed for leniency on behalf of his "five years' good record with the AIF", and Hearn was ultimately fined £4, in default 14 days' imprisonment and granted a stay of 28 days.


Disappearance, "Distance" and a crucial lead

With no listed death certificate anywhere in Australia for a "Roger Musgrove Hearn", information on Bill Hearn's whereabouts was always going to be hard to come by. At almost 110 years of age, he would definitely no longer be alive. Speculation had abound amongst the AFL and its researchers for years around a potential 1974 death date, with multiple Ancestry trees purporting this lead, which came about due to a 1974 death notice of brother Richard William Hearn that did not list Roger as deceased.

Further scouring of Ancestry for any "Roger Hearn"s led us to a chance discovery of a "Roger (Distance) Hearn" who had a listed DOD of 2 November 1949, alongside a birth year of 1914. The tree on which this Roger Hearn was listed was essentially 'hand-written', compiled purely of family notes transcribed into the computer without referencing any database or online sources. It also included numerous dates, nicknames and relationships for Hearn's siblings that were not displayed anywhere else.

Knowing the owner of this tree was quite close to the source, we were able to get in touch with them through a contact, and they passed on a response: "with regard to your question Roger (Distance) Hearn B. 1914 -- D. 2 Nov. 1949... around Oodnadatta. My paper work shows there were 13 siblings. My grandmother was 10th."

The remote town of Oodnadatta in outback South Australia was now the closest thing we had to a confirmation for Bill Hearn's death.


Discovery

Armed with the knowledge that Hearn died "around Oodnadatta", we pulled up a search for anyone with the surname Hearn dying in South Australia in 1949. Lo and behold, the death of a "William Hearn" was listed in the Australian Death Index for 3 November 1949 (just one day after the presumed DOD).

There were also zero tree listings for a "William Hearn" who died either side of 1949 in South Australia, indicating that he did not 'exist' outside of this particular death record.

A further search into the Genealogy SA archives revealed that Hearn's South Australian death notice listed his age at death as 35 (a match to Bill Hearn's 1914 DOB), the place of death near Oodnadatta (a match to the family connection), and a residence of "no fixed abode", with "no relative recorded".

The logical explanation for all of this is that Bill Hearn, after his football career, name change, war service and multiple misdemeanours decided to pack it all up and move a long way away from his previous life, some time between January 1948 and December 1949. This no doubt gave him the name "Distance" amongst those close to him, for he had moved further away than any of them could imagine.

One can also deduce that the knowledge of his 1949 death became apparent to his immediate family only much later in life, certainly well beyond the 1974 date of the death of Bill's brother Richard. By 1949, both of Hearn's parents had passed away, and it appears he sadly became estranged from the brothers he played footy with and grew up alongside.

Ultimately, Bill Hearn's death is a sad tale. Nevertheless, we can draw solace from the fact that his story has now been told, and another page in the dwindling book of unknown V/AFL player deaths has now been written.


In summary...

Name: Roger Musgrove "Bill" Hearn; changed to William Hearn c. August 1941
DOB: 4 March 1914 in Bungaree, Victoria
DOD: 3 November 1949 near Oodnadatta, South Australia

 

[rbartlett]

Great summary Gibbsy (far more indepth that I was expecting or required).
I've sent the post to Stephen Rodgers, and now we wait for his response.

Rhett

 

[rbartlett]

Hello. Stephen Rodgers has accepted the Bill Hearn solution , as listed in post 1184.
Congratulations to all involved.


You can filter through to Wikipedia/Australian Football/ *Paul* , and I'll update Tigerland Archive.

 

[the croucher]

Searching for clues on Ivan Clues...

The only record of him in any trees on Ancestry shows a different birth date to what accepted records have. The league / Encyclopedia has Clues born on 10 May 1929, while this tree has him born on 5 October 1929.

The following is a bit of speculation on my behalf, but given Ancestry doesn't allow living people to be searched in trees, and this is the Clues family tree, my mind is turning to one of two conclusions: either Clues has died and the tree owner hasn't listed or made public his death date (it is a private tree), or the tree owner is not particularly au fait with Ancestry and has added Clues manually recently without unticking the 'deceased' button which Ancestry would presume when you are adding someone born in 1929. Not sure, but there might be more out there.

View attachment 1912774
<snip>

Just a note on the quirks of Ancestry and date indexing...
It is ideal for an Ancestry tree to have DOB/DOD etc written as number followed by abbreviated month and the full year.

If written 10 May 1929, then that is what appears on the tree and also any index summaries.
However, if written 10/5/1929, then Ancestry auto-index summary [like copy you show] lists it as 5 Oct 1929...the American version...month/day/year

The full copy of the private tree may well have Ivan Noel Clues DOB as 10th May 1929, but because of way the tree owner has written it, summary listing interprets it as 5th October 1929, and makes us think there is a different date used.

 

[Gibbsy]

Great summary Gibbsy (far more indepth that I was expecting or required).
I've sent the post to Stephen Rodgers, and now we wait for his response.

Rhett

Feel free to use it as an article on the RFC website

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Roger Musgrove Hearn.

You silly Billy.

You thought your various paths would be blocked off didn't you.

Lucky for us, you have a group of people with tools strong enough to unblock your paths.

To Gibbsy, Daics, Thirsty and co, well bloody done.

BigFooty's longest serving brick wall is no more.

 

[GreyCrow]

His first marriage can’t have lasted long (even in 1954 he's not living with his spouse), and (if it is him) he ended up living with (and almost certainly married to) Dawn Hope (nee Cummings) at Mount Isa, Queensland. The electoral roll had them together there in 1977 and 1980. She died and was buried at Mount Isa in 1982.

I chatted with the Collingwood club historian about Ivan Clues a while back, and it's simply not known as to whether or not he is still alive.

Searching Dawn Cummings provides 8 trees with one suggesting a marriage 13 December 1969 ( to private)

Tree owner has the same name as her mothers maiden name

 

[rbartlett]

Saw this today and thought it interesting.
No one knows when Albert "Alby" Green, the first Magarey Medallist, who had early played for Geelong, died.

Alby Green - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[GreyCrow]

Saw this today and thought it interesting.
No one knows when Albert "Alby" Green, the first Magarey Medallist, who had early played for Geelong, died.

Alby Green - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

According to Victor Not the Author Hugo Alby went West and was alive in 1929

BOYS OF YESTERDAY—AND OTHERS. - Referee (Sydney, NSW : 1886 - 1939) - 23 Jan 1929

Mr. Victor Hugo, the old South Australian cricketer, writes from Adelaide on a multitude of matters, and, incidentally, most interestingly about the players who ...

nla.gov.au

 

[Gibbsy]

Here's a bit more of a spiel on Green from around a month ago, courtesy of the Redlegs Museum (via Australian Rules Football History FB page):

Today, 28 January 2024, marks the 150th anniversary of the birthdate of South Australian cricketer, Australian Rules footballer and all round sportsman, Albert Green, who mysteriously disappeared in Sydney in 1912.

In 1898, Green was the very first recipient of the oldest individual award in Australian Rules Football, the Magarey Medal.
Educated in Adelaide at Glenelg Grammar School, St Peters College and then a boarder at Geelong Grammar School, Green played 27 games for the Geelong Football Club whilst still a schoolboy, including the 1891 premiership. On his return to Adelaide, he joined the Norwood Football Club.

In his first season, 1893, an Adelaide football journalist who used the non de plume of “Onlooker”, declared Green to be the best player for the season in what was then called the South Australian Football Association. In 1894, he became a premiership player for Norwood - a remarkable feat considering he contracted typhoid fever whilst prospecting in the WA Goldfields earlier that same year. In 2010, he was inducted in to the Norwood Football Club Hall of Fame.

Whilst playing football at Norwood, he also played state cricket; played for "George Giffen's Australian XI” in Perth and the WA Goldfields, and played two games against touring English teams. One prominent English player was Kumar Shri Ranjitsinhji, known as “Ranji”, who was also a Prince of Nawanagar State in India. Ranji ridiculed Green and three others for not being worth 40 runs between them “in their best canter”. Shortly afterwards in Toowoomba, Ranji made a “duck’s egg”. Green then sent him a telegraph on behalf of all four players Ranji had criticised which simply said “Surely not your best canter – none of the four made a blob” - and signed it! Prince Ranji was livid.....especially since Green had dismissed him in Adelaide!

After winning the Magarey Medal, Green promptly retired in protest at the 1899 introduction of electorates, which meant that because he didn’t live in the Norwood club’s electorate (ie zone), he could no longer play football for Norwood. Green was one of many players affected by the new ruling, which was also applied to district cricket in Adelaide.

In 1901, Green competed in the South Australian Tennis Championships which were held at the Jubilee Oval. He won the singles, the mixed doubles, and for a clean sweep, also won the men’s doubles with none other than Clem Hill – his great mate who went on to Captain the Australian Cricket Team.

Not long afterwards, Green moved to far North Queensland where he worked in the mining industry around Chillagoe, approximately 200km inland from Cairns. In 1907 he had surgery in Sydney but when later asked about it, his response was simply that “they were looking for inside information”.

Five years later, on 28 February 1912, Green disappeared after he left Nurse Toby’s Private Hospital in Pennant Hills, Sydney. He had been convalescing there for five months, possibly with tuberculosis. Upon leaving he was asked where he was going, to which he replied he was “going to see a specialist”. He was never seen again.

In 1935, his Magarey Medal mysteriously turned up (reputedly in a pawnbroker or a jeweller) and it was bought by a great Norwood benefactor, Ted Heidenreich, who gave it to the club (where it remains to this day).

Since around 1980, sports historians have been searching for answers to what became of Albert Green. There is no death certificate for him anywhere in Australia. Therefore there is also no known grave. The mystery remains alive but recently, I have been making efforts in tandem with a lady from Queensland (Sue Compton), and many others, to see if the mystery of Alby Green’s disappearance can finally be solved. The search has so far included extensive investigations in SA, WA, Victoria, NSW, Qld, New Zealand, South Africa and England. Some interesting leads have been found which are being further explored, but sadly, another task ahead may be to investigate unidentified bodies.

If you know anything, or know someone, that may help to solve this enduring mystery, please feel free to get in touch at enquiries@redlegsmuseum.com.au . Please also feel free to share this post among your own networks.

 

[Gibbsy]

Reading through that it seems like so many avenues have already been exhausted, but a few extra eyes from this board looking over it can't hurt. Green's wife lived for a long time after his disappearance. Is that the path to start exploring? Note the addition of a middle initial too, E, which didn't seem to be on his NSW birth record. Can't seem to find a marriage record for this either, but I haven't looked very hard.

 

[GreyCrow]

Reading through that it seems like so many avenues have already been exhausted, but a few extra eyes from this board looking over it can't hurt. Green's wife lived for a long time after his disappearance. Is that the path to start exploring? Note the addition of a middle initial too, E, which didn't seem to be on his NSW birth record. Can't seem to find a marriage record for this either, but I haven't looked very hard.

View attachment 1915502

View attachment 1915503

Emily Finlayson Burford dies Oct 23 1953 as Emily Finlayson Burford and was born as EFB

I saw that and figured it was a dud

 

[GreyCrow]

There were 4 ( as far as I can see) children of Patrick and Eliza

Herbert, Maud Lillian, Edith and Albert

Edith died in 1930 Funeral Notice only
Herbert in 1846 Wife and children mention only'
Maud Lillian married Langbridge and died in 1954 with only husband and children noted
Albert nothing yet

In conjunction with the WA comment there is a 1944 thank you for an Albie Green with no corresponding death certificate in 1944

Given a quick look at the names given I cant find a Green connection (yet) but he was called brother and son and I feel its way too late for his mother to be alive (maybe)

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Emily's obits don't mention her husband.

They also didn't have any mention of kids.

Just that she was the daughter of William and Mary Burford.

 

[Bandit55]

This doesn't help, but according to Cricinfo he was born on January 28, 1874 in Medindie, South Australia:

Albert Green Profile - Cricket Player Australia | Stats, Records, Video

His brother Tom died in Manly in mysterious circumstances:

Australian Football - the death of tom green

12

Tom Green

Age

23

Ht

192cm

Wt

92kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.5

3star

K

4.3

2star

HB

7.3

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.3

4star

CL

2.8

4star

D

11.5

3star

K

4.3

2star

HB

7.3

4star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.3

3star

CL

2.8

4star

D

11.5

3star

K

4.3

2star

HB

7.3

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.3

4star

CL

2.8

5star

 

[Gibbsy]

Table update with our most recent new finds. I also added Ray Hutchins and Ernie Collihole to the missing DOD list.

Missing dates of death for V/AFL footballers as at 28 February 2024

Player name	Full name	D.O.B.	Career	Notes
Harry Brown	Harold Francis Brown	[?] [?] 1902	StK 1927	⬥ Thought by AFL to be Henry John Brown, DOB 16 Oct 1903 (unlikely) ⬥ Played for Caulfield and Hawksburn prior to StK ⬥ H. Brown transferred StK > Camberwell ⬥ H. F. Brown (same guy?) went C'well > Coll. District ⬥ Interment date is 17 Mar 1975; DOD possibly 13 Mar 1975 ⬥ This puts DOB some time between 13 Mar and 31 Dec 1902 ⬥ Both the DOB and DOD can be confirmed by purchasing certificates
Otto Buck	Samuel Otto John Buck	15 Nov 1876	Carl 1897	⬥ Last confirmed existence in Mildura, 1917 (electoral roll) ⬥ Extensive notes on Ancestry here but no DOD ⬥ Did not die in 1946 as some trees claim (different Samuel Buck)
Jack Cliff	Jack Louis Cliff	23 May 1919	StK 1940–42	⬥ Played for West Broken Hill prior to StK ⬥ AFL/SR says: became a 'gangster', killed in unmarked grave ⬥ Last confirmed existence in Elwood, 1980 (electoral roll)
Ernie Collihole	Ernest James Collihole	26 Dec 1930	SM 1950–51	⬥ DOD listed on Find a Grave of 14 Sep 1985; need confirmation
Frank Corby	Eugene Francis Corby	24 Dec 1924	Coll 1948	⬥ Lawrence William Corby was Frank's brother, not a pseudonym ⬥ Previous Coll FC contact with family did not reveal DOD
Fred Coulsell	Frederick Rowland Coulsell	17 Dec 1905	NM 1927 Ess 1931	⬥ Ancestry tree shows DOD of 16 Jun 1997 at Beenleigh, QLD ⬥ DOD can be confirmed by purchasing certificate
Bobby Craig	Robert Ritchie Craig	29 Mar 1882	Melb 1902	⬥ Born in Williamstown (Aus), moved to Scotland by 1901 (census) ⬥ Departed Liverpool for Argentina in 1913, married in Scotland in 1914 ⬥ Brother Andrew buried in Dromana (Aus) in 1982
Ray Hutchins	Raymond Ferris Hutchins	23 Mar 1929	Melb 1950–51	⬥ Obituary post from Melbourne FC on 3 Feb 2021 mentions his passing but without an exact date
Charlie Jenkins	William Charles Jenkins	21 Aug 1874	Fitz 1898	⬥ Thought by AFL to be Charles Herbert Jenkins, DOB 17 Jun 1878, cousin of Ern Jenkins (unlikely) ⬥ Jenkins often called himself Charles William instead of William Charles ⬥ He transferred to Fitzroy in 1894 ⬥ Ancestry tree shows DOD of 1 Jun 1956 ⬥ DOD can be confirmed by purchasing certificate
Edmund Kirwin	Edmund Kirwin	31 Mar 1876	StK 1898	⬥ Kirwin's brother Maurice died in 1960 ⬥ Kirwin was an established cricketer for St Kilda CC; CricketArchive records list an Edward Kirwan (diff spelling both names), DOB 1872, DOD 20 Feb 1929 ⬥ Michael Kirwen (again, diff spelling) listed as brother of Maurice, died in 1952, but no mention of Edmund, despite the fact they were also brothers
Tom Lee	Thomas Francis Lee	11 Dec 1874	Coll 1897–98	⬥ Lee's mother Elizabeth appears to have died on the day of his birth ⬥ There are no death notices for any of his relatives that have died ⬥ Ancestry tress and death notices suggest he died before 1915, possibly before 1904
George Lockwood	George Lockwood	6 Dec 1872	Geel 1899–1901 Coll 1902–04	⬥ AFL/SR says: possible death year of 1946(unlikely) ⬥ A George Hislop Lockwood died overseas in war in 1917 (inconclusive) ⬥ Lockwood lived until at least 1944 according to death notice of relative ⬥ Lockwood's twin Teddy died in 1953 ⬥ The Lockwood lineage looks as so
Joe Marchant	[?]	[?] c. 1884	StK 1904	⬥ Thought by AFL to be John Albert Marchant, DOB 11 Sep 1884 in NSW (unlikely) ⬥ No transfer details; "The Encyclopedia" lists him as Joseph Marchant
Jack McKenzie	John James McKenzie	19 Aug 1908	Ess 1929	⬥ Son of John Joseph 'Dookie' McKenzie (1881–1946) ⬥ Married Lorna Davis Ireland in 1933, divorced in 1939 ⬥ Listed as deceased in father Dookie's death notice, so McKenzie's death is presumed between Jul 1939 and Mar 1946
Alf Neeson	Alfred Carl Frank Neeson (later: Alfred Milton Briggs)	15 Jun 1914	Fitz 1935–36 Haw 1936–38	⬥ DOB thought in early research to be 5 June 1914 due to war records (proven false via Vic BDM) ⬥ Joined Army in early 1935 and discharged later that year ⬥ Was arrested in 1939 for stealing a car, changed his name at some point around this time to Alfred Briggs ⬥ Married Ivy McRae/Seale in 1940 as Alfred M. Briggs ⬥ Potentially interchanging use of Briggs/Neeson names, was in WA goldfields region in late 1940s ⬥ Former wife Ivy died in 1974 ⬥ Further evidence suggesting Alf swapped between Briggs & Neeson throughout his life ⬥ AFL/SR says: suggest Alf used Alfred Milton Briggs as a full name; Alfred and Ivy on Kalgoorlie electoral roll in 1949 ⬥ Further SR research; no Briggs in Kalgoorlie cemetery ⬥ Alma Seale (sister of Ivy Briggs)'s daughter Winifred moved to Frankston before 1980 ⬥ Winifred contacted Rhett in Nov 2017 but only vague memories of Alf ⬥ SR: No response from New Norcia Monastery (lead from Winifred) ⬥ Genealogist with history of researching Alf says he married at least once, possibly twice more after Ivy, and Milton Kenneth Briggs is possibly an adopted son
Mick O'Hagan	Michael Joseph O'Hagan	22 Jan 1878	StK 1897	⬥ Michael Joseph O'Hagan studied pharmacy at Melb Uni in 1895; mentioned in court case in 1908 as being from Nathalia ⬥ His sister, Mary Terese, died in 1970 aged 90; death notice lists Mick as deceased ⬥ Some questioning over whether Michael Joseph is our man given lack of quality of early St Kilda player records ⬥ Given contemporaries and schooling, confident that he is the right man
George Prismall	George Henry Prismall	10 Mar 1915	Ess 1935	⬥ Served in British Merchant Navy during WWII ⬥ Mother was Gladys Prismall (1893–1980), who didn't marry ⬥ His sister, Phyllis Catherine, died in 2014 ⬥ Last existence, living in Earls Court (Aussie hotspot) circa 1947–48
Sam Reid	Samuel Alexander Reid	17 Jun 1872	Carl 1897	⬥ Parents were likely James Reid and Ann Eliza Reid (nee Ralston) ⬥ Probably not the Samuel Reid 50 Samuel Reid Age 34 Ht 188cm Wt 85kg Pos. Def Career Season Last 5 D 12.4 3star K 6.5 3star HB 5.9 4star M 3.1 3star T 3.0 5star MG 176.3 3star No current season stats available D 12.6 4star K 4.0 2star HB 8.6 5star M 3.4 4star T 4.6 5star that died in 1949 and may have lived in Japan (different parents to those listed on Blueseum)
Arch Robinson	Archibald Robinson	9 Jul 1890	Rich 1911	⬥ Served in AIF in WWI; Army records suggest born in 1888, not 1890 ⬥ Divorced Edith Robinson Whitehead in 1921 ⬥ Was often misnamed as Robertson
Ray Ross	Raymond Paul Ross	2 May 1900	Ess 1921	⬥ Ross is not Rich/StK player Raymond Roberts Ross from similar era ⬥ Potential that Raymond Paul Ross changed his name to Raymond Paul Elliott and died in 1980 (same mother) ⬥ More ruling out of other people (aka Raymond Roberts Ross) ⬥ Permit for an R. Ross going from Ess > NM in Rd 4, 1922 ⬥ Raymond Paul Ross was not a jeweller listed in 1921 (different guy)
Jim Smith	James William Smith	11 Feb 1887	SM 1906	⬥ Listed as from Marylebone (Geelong Juniors) in "The Encyclopedia" ⬥ Born to John Smith and Mary Williams ⬥ Likely ruled out James Smith, DOB 1887, DOD 1963 in Geelong ⬥ Returned to Geelong Junior Association in 1907 ⬥ Possibly captain of East Geelong from 1910–1919 ⬥ J Smith is cleared from East Geel to Eastern District in 1923
Alby Williams	Albert Joseph Williams	3 Aug 1916	NM 1943	⬥ Married Doris Vivienne Williams (nee Jackman) in 1940 ⬥ When Doris passed away in 1964, Alby was still listed as alive in her death notice
Bill Woods	William Cross Woods	[?] [?] 1881	Geel 1909	⬥ Thought by AFL to be William Henry Woods, DOB 31 Aug 1890 (unlikely) ⬥ Then believed to be William Woods, born 1890 in Portarlington, enlisted in First AIF in 1915 and returned to Aus in 1919 ⬥ Potential cremation date 6 July 1972 in Springvale (unlikely to be our man) ⬥ Initial scepticism from AFL/SR; mention of brother called Ike ⬥ Potential match of William Cross Woods (1881–1959) ⬥ Third son of Emma and Isaac Woods (potentially William's parents) died in 1891 ⬥ Discovery of alternate surname Burgess which seemed to be used interchangeably with Woods ⬥ DOD of William Cross Woods listed as 3 Aug 1959 in Geelong ⬥ Info on William's son Isaac ⬥ Detailed family tree of William Cross Woods, refuting AFL/SR likely incorrect beliefs that he was still William Henry Woods ⬥ AFL/SR still pushing back on William Cross ⬥ Burial info on Woods' potential wife Adeline Alice ⬥ Suggestion for AFL to purchase Woods' mother's death certificate to glean more information

Possibly living (born pre-1930) V/AFL footballers as at 28 February 2024

Player name	Full name	D.O.B.	Career	Notes
Angus Abbey	Angus Maxwell Abbey	15 Nov 1925	Foot 1949–54
Jack Atkinson	[?]	23 Jun 1928	Rich 1950
Lindsay Baglin	Lindsay Gordon Baglin	2 Mar 1929	Foot 1947 NM 1949
Des Bell	Desmond Clyde Bell	23 May 1923	Melb 1946–48	⬥ Alive in Aug 2022
Ivan Clues	Ivan Noel Clues	10 May 1929	Coll 1951	⬥ Married in 1949, likely divorced by 1954 ⬥ Appears to have been living in Mt Isa in 1980 ⬥ Collingwood FC unsure on his current whereabouts
Greg Dean	[?]	14 Oct 1928	StK 1949–50
Norm Edwards	[?]	23 Oct 1928	Foot 1950–51
Arthur Fitt	Arthur Aloysius Fitt Jr.	12 Feb 1928	Fitz 1950
Nick Gelavis	Nikolas Gelavis	15 Jun 1929	SM 1953–54 Foot 1954
Brian Gilmore	Brian R. Gilmore	1 Dec 1929	Ess 1950–53 StK 1955
Max Glass	Maxwell Herbert Glass	2 Oct 1925	SM 1945	⬥ Last confirmed existence in Jan 1999 (possibly near Coffs Harbour) ⬥ Living in Rye, 1980 (electoral roll), has a son also named Maxwell (John)
Eddie Goodger	Edmund James Goodger	10 Mar 1929	Fitz 1949–58
Gordon Green	Gordon Stanley Green	31 May 1925	NM 1942	⬥ Alive in Jul 2018
Barry Griffiths	Barry McIntosh Griffiths	12 Jul 1929	Haw 1950–52	⬥ Originally from Canterbury ⬥ Lived in Ashburton, played for East. Suburban Churches ⬥ Possibly thought to be Barry Joseph Griffiths (unlikely) ⬥ Listed in 1953 article as 22 y.o., conflicts with 1929 DOB ⬥ Transferred from Oakleigh to Albury in 1954 ⬥ Played with Acton in Canberra in 1959 ⬥ Strong match for Barry McIntosh re: locations etc.
Doug Guy	Douglas George Guy	21 Nov 1929	Carl 1950–53
Les Jarry	[?]	28 Sep 1928	SM 1948–49
Andy Larkins	[?]	30 Oct 1928	Geel 1950
Greg Lourey	[?]	1 Aug 1927	Melb 1948; 1950 Fitz 1951–52
Jack MacDonald	Jack R. MacDonald	16 May 1927	Haw 1951–53	⬥ Originally from Carey Grammar / Camberwell ⬥ Also played for Creswick and Glen Iris ⬥ Coached at Powelltown
Jim Miller	James Henry Miller	30 May 1919	Foot 1938–48	⬥ Alive in Jun 2023
Tom Miller	[?]	3 Jul 1928	Foot 1947–50
Wally Nash	[?]	10 Jun 1929	Haw 1953–54
Frank Pattison	Francis Xavier Pattison	29 Sep 1928	StK 1951
Fred Payne	Frederick Ronald Payne	4 Feb 1927	Ess 1949–53	⬥ Alive in Feb 2024
Harry Paynter	Henry Charles Paynter	17 Sep 1927	Coll 1950	⬥ Alive in Feb 2024
Jim Rattray	[?]	22 Aug 1929	Haw 1949–52
Bill Redmond	William George Arthur Redmond	29 May 1927	Carl 1947–48
Cliff Riley	Clifford David Riley	2 Feb 1927	StK 1951–52
Don Scott	Donald Rex Scott	5 Nov 1929	SM 1950–54
Jack Storey	John Ivan Storey	1 Jul 1929	Foot 1948–49
Jack Taylor	[?]	9 May 1924	Haw 1945	⬥ Originally from Melbourne High School ⬥ Lived in Ashburton, played for Glen Ormond
Bob Templeton	[?]	25 Oct 1927	Foot 1947–49; 1953
Jack Thomson	[?]	22 Jan 1929	Melb 1949–53
Ron Warren	[?]	5 Oct 1928	Geel 1949
Kevin Webb	[?]	2 Oct 1928	Rich 1949 Melb 1951
Brian Williamson	[?]	9 Dec 1928	NM 1947

There are a further...

• 24 players born in 1930
• 31 players born in 1931
• 22 players born in 1932
• 49 players born in 1933
• 44 players born in 1934

Recently confirmed DODs and/or DOBs (since 23 February 2024)

Player name	Full name	D.O.B.	D.O.D.	Career	Notes
Bill Hearn	Roger Musgrove Hearn (later: William Hearn)	4 Mar 1914	3 Nov 1949	Rich 1935	Confirmation post
Charlie King	Charles William King	31 Jul 1926	12 Sep 2007	Geel 1949	Confirmation post
Jim Broockmann	[?]	6 May 1936	31 Oct 2011	Fitz 1958	Confirmation post
Pat Harrington	Patrick Keith Harrington	18 Mar 1929	2 Jul 2011	SM 1954	Confirmation post

---

Missing DOBs V/AFL footballers as at 28 February 2024

Player name	Full name	D.O.B.	D.O.D.	Career	Notes
Stewart Anderson	Glen Stewart Anderson	1910	7 Aug 1962	StK 1933–35 NM 1937–38
Harry Brown	Harold Francis Brown	1902	[?]	StK 1927	See DOD list
Dick Casey	Richard James Casey	c. 1881	16 Apr 1919	SM 1905–12
Morrie Davidson	Maurice Davidson	1904	11 Jul 1970	NM 1930
Bill Hennington	William Hennington	c. 1891	11 Jul 1964	SM 1914
Jim Schellnack	James Schellnack	c. 1880	24 May 1968	SM 1904

 

[Gibbsy]

This doesn't help, but according to Cricinfo he was born on January 28, 1874 in Medindie, South Australia:

Albert Green Profile - Cricket Player Australia | Stats, Records, Video

His brother Tom died in Manly in mysterious circumstances:

Australian Football - the death of tom green

I reckon that's simply a transcription error of his actual birth place of Menindee, New South Wales.

NSW BDM backs this up, albeit with a spelling error of its own: