Toast Mitch McGovern

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Lever too. So Carl's argument falls down as he is thinking that Neil Craig is still in charge from that time he dropped Davis after one game and then there was the Gunston treatment as well. Carl needs to remember that was about ten years ago. Things have changed.

Two examples from last season!

A proud history we've developed!

Forgive me for not penciling McGovern and Milera in for automatic 15 game seasons just yet.

 

[NikkiNoo]

Two examples from last season!

A proud history we've developed!

Forgive me for not penciling McGovern and Milera in for automatic 15 game seasons just yet.

When you are relying on things that happened over ten years ago to prove your argument against things that happened in the last two to three years, I think your argument is invalid, Carl. What matters is what has happened recently, not ten years ago. Things have changed at the club. Can also add in Atkins and Knights as well. They didn't set things on fire, but were kept in the team and built up to being considered in almost everyone's best 22 this season. So there are actually four examples from last season.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

When you are relying on things that happened over ten years ago to prove your argument against things that happened in the last two to three years, I think your argument is invalid, Carl. What matters is what has happened recently, not ten years ago. Things have changed at the club. Can also add in Atkins and Knights as well. They didn't set things on fire, but were kept in the team and built up to being considered in almost everyone's best 22 this season. So there are actually four examples from last season.

???

Rory Atkins
2013 - 0 games
2014 - 0 games
2015 - 8 games

Riley Knight
2014 - 0 games
2015 - 11 games

It's going to take them until their 5th season on the list to play 50 games.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Unfortunately he kicks like John Butcher. No value in a forward who can't kick.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Unfortunately he kicks like John Butcher. No value in a forward who can't kick.

His kicking was poor but I'd heard really good things about his kicking previously. Hopefully first game nerves, not a sign of things to come.

 

[Southerntakeover]

His kicking was poor but I'd heard really good things about his kicking previously. Hopefully first game nerves, not a sign of things to come.

His kicking was poor in the NAB cup as well.

 

[NikkiNoo]

???

Rory Atkins
2013 - 0 games
2014 - 0 games
2015 - 8 games

Riley Knight
2014 - 0 games
2015 - 11 games

It's going to take them until their 5th season on the list to play 50 games.

McGovern played 0 AFL games in his first season on the list too. He wasn't ready just yet, like Atkins and Knight weren't quite ready either. Atkins was coming from a bit further back considering his off field issues and fitness that needed fixing. Gov had similar issues at the start of last year and a few injuries. That isn't poor development holding them back in their first year, it is actually good development so that they can come in and play an extended run of games and solidify a spot in the team.

Are Knight and Atkins now considered best 22 in most people's eyes on the back of 8 and 11 games respectively?

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

McGovern played 0 AFL games in his first season on the list too. He wasn't ready just yet, like Atkins and Knight weren't quite ready either. Atkins was coming from a bit further back considering his off field issues and fitness that needed fixing. Gov had similar issues at the start of last year and a few injuries. That isn't poor development holding them back in their first year, it is actually good development so that they can come in and play an extended run of games and solidify a spot in the team.

Are Knight and Atkins now considered best 22 in most people's eyes on the back of 8 and 11 games respectively?

They're never ready!

Our method has been to drip feed games into players over a period of time without ever making a serious investment and backing them in.

Hence we get 5+ years down the path with Lyons, CEY, Grigg, Kerridge, Martin, Knight, Atkins... no closer to developing genuinely good players. Their development stalls/stagnates plus we've wasted games on them that could have been used on others.

If Milera and McGovern are still in the team at Round 6 then I'll concede that the winds of change have swept through the club and we're seeing a new dawn.

 

[Glenno23]

Are Knight and Atkins now considered best 22 in most people's eyes on the back of 8 and 11 games respectively?

Knight is on the back of his finals performance. Big games and he performs? yes please. Only reason he didn't come back in after his PS injury is that he is still young and hasn't got 6-7 pre seasons in his legs and needed a run in the magoos (as evidenced by his slow start)

But i'd have him in this week

Rat still not "best 22" lock yet, but has the talent to get there. Needs more consistency

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Best 22 is such a misnomer too.

Every team has a best 22, it doesn't mean anything. It's no measure of quality relative to the rest of the competition.

A 22 that can compete with the best teams in the competition is what matters.

 

[Scorpus]

Best 22 is such a misnomer too.

Every team has a best 22, it doesn't mean anything. It's no measure of quality relative to the rest of the competition.

A 22 that can compete with the best teams in the competition is what matters.

This doesn't make any sense.

Best 22 is and has ways been a measure of which of our players is better relative to the other players in our squad. A player being "best 22" at the Crows doesn't mean they are as good as best 22 players at a premiership squad. It's purely to judge our own players.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

This doesn't make any sense.

Best 22 is and has ways been a measure of which of our players is better relative to the other players in our squad. A player being "best 22" at the Crows doesn't mean they are as good as best 22 players at a premiership squad. It's purely to judge our own players.

Yep, so it's no competition-wide badge of honour.

Saying that Knight or Atkins are "Best 22" is meaningless when we're talking about whether Adelaide is a good club or has a good team or whether they have developed into good players. All it means is that we have developed them to the point that they are better than our 23rd player. Or they haven't developed at all and our 23rd guy has just gotten worse.

The wooden spooner has a Best 22. The premier has a Best 22.

 

[Scorpus]

Yep, so it's no competition-wide badge of honour.

Saying that Knight or Atkins are "Best 22" is meaningless when we're talking about whether Adelaide is a good club or has a good team or whether they have developed into good players. All it means is that we have developed them to the point that they are better than our 23rd player. Or they haven't developed at all and our 23rd guy has just gotten worse.

The wooden spooner has a Best 22. The premier has a Best 22.

Developing players into best 22 players is the first step. You then need to take the best 22 and elevate them into flag contenders.

The coach can do very little about having the wrong personnel mid season. That'd up to the recruitment team

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Developing players into best 22 players is the first step. You then need to take the best 22 and elevate them into flag contenders.

The coach can do very little about having the wrong personnel mid season. That'd up to the recruitment team

But that's nothing.

We're always going to have a best 22 no matter how crap the coach, players or recruiting team are. It's meaningless.

 

[Scorpus]

But that's nothing.

We're always going to have a best 22 no matter how crap the coach, players or recruiting team are. It's meaningless.

It's only meaningless if you use it to evaluate players in the wrong way

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

It's only meaningless if you use it to evaluate players in the wrong way

It's only meaningless if you use it to evaluate players at all.

Being in Hawthorn's best 22 means that you're a good player. Being in our best 22 does not.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

They're never ready!

Our method has been to drip feed games into players over a period of time without ever making a serious investment and backing them in.

Hence we get 5+ years down the path with Lyons, CEY, Grigg, Kerridge, Martin, Knight, Atkins... no closer to developing genuinely good players. Their development stalls/stagnates plus we've wasted games on them that could have been used on others.

If Milera and McGovern are still in the team at Round 6 then I'll concede that the winds of change have swept through the club and we're seeing a new dawn.

you've become a real pessimist .......there's a massive difference in playing players with genuine talent versus players who are struggling at the grade

Knights .....11 games in first season AFL
Atkins ........9 games in first AFL season
Cameron .... 7 games first year, 20 games last season
Hartigan ...... 3, 7, and 16 games in first 3 seasons
Laird .............18 games first season
Brown ............3 games first season, 21 games 2nd season

McGovern and Milera first game players in round 1 .....2016, after the club finished 6th in 2015 ??

Rising Star nominations
2013 ...L. Brown, B. Crouch, S. Kerridge, R. Laird
2014 ...M, Crouch
2015 ...C.Cameron, J.Lever

So who exactly is the club holding back .......yep, the players CEY, Lyons, who simply are not putting runs on the board to demand selection

Cream ALWAYS rises to the top .....the club has ALWAYS fast tracked talent ....Are you unhappy having Milera chosen over Lyons ? .....I'm not

 

[Scorpus]

It's only meaningless if you use it to evaluate players at all.

Being in Hawthorn's best 22 means that you're a good player. Being in our best 22 does not.

That is the wrong sort of evaluation best 22 provides. Best 22 can only be used to evaluate how good our players are relative to our other players. It does not tell you how good players are compared to everyone else in the competition

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Three of the top four players you listed there aren't in the team.

Let's see what happens this week.

A good selection attitude will see Cameron and Knight come in and Milera and McGovern retained.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

That is the wrong sort of evaluation best 22 provides. Best 22 can only be used to evaluate how good our players are relative to our other players. It does not tell you how good players are compared to everyone else in the competition

That's right, so it's meaningless for us to ask the question - are Atkins/Knight now best 22? - as evidence of how well we have developed players.

 

[Archie87]

Bit harsh on the Gov to suggest he's on John Butcher levels of bad kicking. Two of his misses on the weekend were difficult snaps under pressure. We can forgive him those as he'll nail those with more exposure at the level. He's kicked those at SANFL level.

The only one I'm critical of is his set shot. Should've been a simple drop punt. None of this Stevie J stuff until you've played a few more!

 

[Scorpus]

That's right, so it's meaningless for us to ask the question - are Atkins/Knight now best 22? - as evidence of how well we have developed players.

Well we can use that metric to say we've developed them better or they have shown to have more talent than our other players. That's it.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Bit harsh on the Gov to suggest he's on John Butcher levels of bad kicking. Two of his misses on the weekend were difficult snaps under pressure. We can forgive him those as he'll nail those with more exposure at the level. He's kicked those at SANFL level.

The only one I'm critical of is his set shot. Should've been a simple drop punt. None of this Stevie J stuff until you've played a few more!

He's consistently missed kickable shots from the few times I've watched him.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

That's right, so it's meaningless for us to ask the question - are Atkins/Knight now best 22? - as evidence of how well we have developed players.

Atkins getting there .....Knight definitely .....Is Atkins kicking same or better than Polec ?

Seems whilst we lost out on Polec .....we may have picked up a slightly slower but equally as good and maybe a more resilient player in Atkins ....thoughts?

 

[NikkiNoo]

Three of the top four players you listed there aren't in the team.

Let's see what happens this week.

A good selection attitude will see Cameron and Knight come in and Milera and McGovern retained.

No it won't. Cameron is not ready for AFL this year. If you watched the SANFL game that would have been obvious. It would be poor development for him. Playing the kids regardless is not good development. Not everyone is exactly the same and different pathways are needed to be taken for that in a coaching development consideration for those individuals.