NAB CUP - selection / positional experiments

[Shaneprice97]

Frost to play 100%
But playing Frost forward could be an interesting move

 

[pablo disco bar]

Yeah never really seen gault play...give him a run

Sent from my GT-I9305T using Tapatalk

 

[Jelly Bean]

I'm also not 100% sold that we need 3 key forwards. It is my preference, but I'd be happy with a forward line of Cloke + Reid, with Grundy and Witts sharing ruck duties. If we are short of a defender, then Reid can go back and Cloke can work with White (who can also back up ruck and means we can play an extra runner)

I really like the blend.

It's not really a model that can work though, with Grundy and Witts as the rucks. For a couple of reasons in my mind.

a) You can't have them swapping onto the bench (e.g. Grundy starting, with Witts on the bench, then doing a direct swap). That means you are tying up one bench position for two players, and only getting 50% game time average out of those players (probably less for Witts given Grundy will probably play more), as you need to spread your rest minutes more evenly across your midfield. So that isn't really an optimal solution.

b) So if the above is agreed, then the response would be that Witts gets time in the forwardline to give his bench spot to those who need it. Aside from the fact that this is actually playing with 3 key forwards, I think that it needs to be another player who is key forward first, and ruckman only at a pinch. Given the majority of time for the second ruck (in this case Witts) is spent in the forwardline, they need to be a good forward first, and then capable ruck second. White, Lynch, Cloke, Reid, etc, all better forwards than Witts. And all provide more flexibility in the case of injury etc.

I think the structure we seem to be moving towards is the right mix to optimise across the ground (two primary key forwards in Cloke and Reid, and a third key forward / ruck in White or Lynch, with Grundy in the ruck). The only way Witts really ever gets a game is if he becomes a strong enough key forward threat to be a legitimate target when not in ruck (or overtakes Grundy in the ruck).

 

[Knightmare]

Frost to play 100%
But playing Frost forward could be an interesting move

Frost doesn't have key forward talent. Like we've seen in the short glimpses of Keeffe and Brown some years back as forwards it's not going to be anything you'll be calling to see again.
He's not someone who can take advantage of a key defender in any way. Cloke will take the contested mark. Hawkins 1v1 is too big and can just shove you off the ball. Franklin is too good when the ball hits the ground and his second effort is better than any key defender in the competition.
All Frost would bring as a key forward is a keen tackling energy which by position would be excellent. But that's not what key forwards are there to do first so he's better served as a backman as someone who as a forward would struggle to get his hands on it, not provide any great scoreboard pressure or take a whole lot of marks.

 

[Quicky]

I would like to see the following:

Oxley and Seedsman of the half back flank. I think this position is theirs for the taking and they should get every opportunity to make it theirs.

A Cloke, Reid and White forward line. I want to see if it works and for these guys to start getting an understanding for each other.

Equally a Cloke, Reid, Karnezis forward line.

Broomhead as a forward pocket.

Witts and Grundy combo in the ruck.

 

[Quicky]

It's not really a model that can work though, with Grundy and Witts as the rucks. For a couple of reasons in my mind.

I disagree. I think it is a combo that could work. But it would mean trouble for White and Lynch. You couldn't play either of those with the two ruck combination.

What you sacrifice is some mobility forward, but (potentially) gain in the ruck.

I probably wouldn't do it in the regular season as I don't think the difference in what Witts offers in the ruck compared to the other two makes up for that loss of forward mobility. But I see no reason why we shouldn't do it in the preseason comp to assess it as an option and with a longer term view.

 

[Jelly Bean]

I disagree. I think it is a combo that could work. But it would mean trouble for White and Lynch. You couldn't play either of those with the two ruck combination.

What you sacrifice is some mobility forward, but (potentially) gain in the ruck.

Yep. But they spend more time in the forwardline than the ruck. And anyway, even more specifically, you gain only in hitouts in the ruck, and still lose out in mobility in the ruck.

I probably wouldn't do it in the regular season as I don't think the difference in what Witts offers in the ruck compared to the other two makes up for that loss of forward mobility. But I see no reason why we shouldn't do it in the preseason comp to assess it as an option and with a longer term view.

So I guess we aren't really disagreeing after all, are we Quicky...?

I was talking about during the season. In the experimental cup, I am more than happy to see come in and get game time (as I have said earlier).

 

[rand corp]

Witts to get time in the ruck with Grundy - Need to see Witts make significant progress this season

White/Cloke/Ried forward line combo - probably our best tall forward combination, need to get them playing together as quickly as possible

Freeman as a small forward - let's see what the lads got and let's give him a taste

Sure we will give a run to the money-ball trades - Karnesis and Armstrong and the rehabilitated Young and look forward to getting a look at what they might have to offer this season.

Beams, JT and Adams in the guts (a glimpse at the future)

Also, looking forward to the returns of Fasolo and Toovey when it comes - though probably not as early as the NAB.

Hope both Oxley and Frost get a run out in the NAB, both look very promising to me.

Whilst I have serious doubts about Mooney making it, he needs to be given the opportunity as this is probably his season of reckoning.

Will be interesting to see if Dwyer can continue to improve on his impressive first season.

Will be interesting to see if players like Martin, Broomhead and Ramsay get a go in the NAB, but they will have all season to prove their credentials. Martin is the most ready and probably needs his chance earlier than the other two and needs to take it.

Also, think we will see a maturing and solid development from Keefe, Seedsman and Williams this season and look forward to it. Elliot is another who should be more consistent in the new season.

 

[Jonno94]

I honestly cant wait to see the Elliott/Fasolo combo tear it up next year, they're going to be seriously good in the forward line together.

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

Do we know if Jesse White can actually ruck? A lot of eggs are being put into that basket, especially when you consider how promising his late season forward line form was.

 

[Shaneprice97]

Do we know if Jesse White can actually ruck? A lot of eggs are being put into that basket, especially when you consider how promising his late season forward line form was.

He played as a Back up ruck for Swans in 2009 very effectively, over his AFL career he averaged 4.2 hitouts a game playing different positions over the ground, when he played NEAFL he was the most dominating number 1 ruck by a large margin. White can play back up ruck a lot more effectively then Lynch and Dawes because he is taller and a lot more athletically gifted so he has a good chance winning the centre bounce duels. White can play number 1 ruck effectively as well.

 

[Quicky]

So I guess we aren't really disagreeing after all, are we Quicky...?

I was talking about during the season. In the experimental cup, I am more than happy to see come in and get game time (as I have said earlier).

Not really.

Actually it's not so much that I wouldn't be happy to play a Grundy and Witts combo in the regular season as I think we have better options. I still think that combo could work.

In the immediate future however my ruck preference goes like this:

1. Grundy - White combo
2. Grundy - Lynch combo
3. Grundy - Witts combo

Witts is my second choice number one ruck ahead of Hudson but more for development reasons. Hudson is still the better ruckman at this stage.

 

[Jelly Bean]

Not really.

Actually it's not so much that I wouldn't be happy to play a Grundy and Witts combo in the regular season as I think we have better options. I still think that combo could work.

In the immediate future however my ruck preference goes like this:

1. Grundy - White combo
2. Grundy - Lynch combo
3. Grundy - Witts combo

Witts is my second choice number one ruck ahead of Hudson but more for development reasons. Hudson is still the better ruckman at this stage.

I agree with this.

 

[Knightmare]

Do we know if Jesse White can actually ruck? A lot of eggs are being put into that basket, especially when you consider how promising his late season forward line form was.

He hasn't received much of a chance to ruck throughout having mostly played key forward throughout his career.

He's big bodied and athletic enough to compete so he'll have to do. Seeing as Lynch was ineffective as a ruckman last year and White is 4cm taller he'll have to do for that roughly 20% of gametime Grundy rests.

What he'll need to work on I suspect will be his followup work as a ruckman as his tackling and propensity to give second and third efforts has been consistently poor throughout his career. If he gets that right then he'll while not ideal, suffice.

 

[pies 4 ever]

Long time pie supporter, first time user.
I would like to see Lumumba tried on the forward flank in the pre season. As much as I like him playing wing/HB his kicks into the forward line have too much hang time and as such put pressure on forwards.
He has good pace and defensive capabilities, is able to shrug tacklers, is rarely caught and generally gets his kick away, is a booming accurate kick (as evidenced by players handballing to him from outside 50) and when firing his enthusiasm is contagious. Although not a crumber he would provide height without losing line forward pace. Elliott and Fas both have stated a desire to play upfield and this would be the ideal time to trial them.

 

[Knightmare]

Long time pie supporter, first time user.
I would like to see Lumumba tried on the forward flank in the pre season. As much as I like him playing wing/HB his kicks into the forward line have too much hang time and as such put pressure on forwards.
He has good pace and defensive capabilities, is able to shrug tacklers, is rarely caught and generally gets his kick away, is a booming accurate kick (as evidenced by players handballing to him from outside 50) and when firing his enthusiasm is contagious. Although not a crumber he would provide height without losing line forward pace. Elliott and Fas both have stated a desire to play upfield and this would be the ideal time to trial them.

The issue taking Harry/Heritier off a wing is the loss of run. Without Shaw in the back half there is such limited outside drive. Seedman can run which is a start. Young if he plays can help penetrate but losing what Harry did last year hurts regardless of what Young or any others can add.

Additionally worth considering with Harry the forward is his poor lateral movement. He's purely a straight-line runner. His change of direction and turning circle is as poor as you'll see on our squad and that's why he struggled against those better moving forwards previously as a defender and had to move up to a wing this year. I suspect that it would similarly limit his play on a forward flank.

Had you suggested Harry to the front half last year I would quite likely have strongly agreed but given his strong and consistent form on a wing even as a NAB Cup experiment it's not something I'm dying to see.
As a 27 year old in the NAB he could get away with only playing the one trial game before the premiership season begins so he shouldn't get in the way of Fasolo or Elliott who I agree should for their developing during the NAB Cup receive an opportunity up the field to better get a feel for what they can/can't do.

 

[jjsmitty8]

I wouldn't mind seeing Freeman, Langdon, Marsh, Karnezis and Armstrong have a run.

 

[Mkcaptain]

Hopefully Karnezis can repeat his NAB Cup form from last year

 

[jmac70]

Hopefully Karnezis can repeat his NAB Cup form from last year

Does that include being dropped when the real stuff begins?

 

[Mkcaptain]

Does that include being dropped when the real stuff begins?

Yeah. Cause I can't afford to be sucked in to putting him in my SC team again.

 

[Hinequarters]

Does that include being dropped when the real stuff begins?

Did we hire Voss as an assistant coach

 

[Duggy31]

Did we hire Voss as an assistant coach

Imagine Karnezis face if this hadve eventuated!

 

[Shaneprice97]

Imagine Karnezis face if this hadve eventuated!

"I am not amused"

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

He hasn't received much of a chance to ruck throughout having mostly played key forward throughout his career.

He's big bodied and athletic enough to compete so he'll have to do. Seeing as Lynch was ineffective as a ruckman last year and White is 4cm taller he'll have to do for that roughly 20% of gametime Grundy rests.

What he'll need to work on I suspect will be his followup work as a ruckman as his tackling and propensity to give second and third efforts has been consistently poor throughout his career. If he gets that right then he'll while not ideal, suffice.

Fair enough. I agree he has the physical tools to be a dangerous ruckman/forward, especially with his pace. I actually thought Lynch was excellent in the role early in the season, far more effective than Leigh Brown was for the majority of his time at the club, but for whatever reason his form dropped off drastically. All the second ruck needs to do is provide a physical contest and I'm happy to give White time to do that. If it doesn't work however, I think White has the ability to be a really dangerous permanent forward for us. His late 2013 form proved that.

Have a feeling plan a will be:
Key backs: Brown, Keefe. 3rd tall/quarter back from Harry, Maxwell, Scharenberg or Oxley.
Key forwards: Cloke, Reid
Forward/ruck: White

Plan b:
B: Brown, Keefe. 3rd tall/quarter back: Reid
F: Cloke, White
Ruck/forward: Lynch (only if fully fit)

I honestly prefer plan b.

 

[soreplums]

I honestly cant wait to see the Elliott/Fasolo combo tear it up next year, they're going to be seriously good in the forward line together.

Like to see both get a run through the middle, Williams included. Fas to me could be a good centreman, will also give him the opportunity to work on his midfield defensive game. Elliott has clean hands which would be useful around the clearances and his marking ability will help around the ground as another option in transition. Also means Dwyer can spend his time as half forward.

Would even like to see how Elliott and Fas go on a wing.