NBA "What-if" thread

[Karl Pilkington]

Basically a thread where we can go over a whole bunch of scenarios that nearly happened, but didn't.

I'll start off with my pet favourite:

What if Orlando had held on to Webber instead of trading him for Penny, and combined the best high post big man, who was easily capable of running an offense, with the best low post big man and most dominating force in basketball? They would have been surrounded by shooters.

Their lineup would have been:

Skiles (I'm pretty sure at least, might need to double check that)
Anderson
<insert a decent wing player they would have nabbed for about 8 million instead of Horace Grant>
Webber
Shaq

My take:
For starters, they would have destroyed everyone in the East, and Jordan wouldn't have gotten his second threepeat.

Secondly, as much as I love Penny, they wouldn't have needed another playmaker as Skiles could bring it up and kick it to Webber, who was a complete anomaly for all other PF's in the game at the time and would have relished the chance to run the offense as he did in Michigan (and would later do to rave reviews in Sacramento). Shaq wouldn't be able to be double teamed either, because you'd have the three shooters and Webber, instead of Horace "offensive liability" Grant.

They would have been a nightmare on the boards and in the post.

The bad:

Lack of a crunch time scorer. Both Webber and Shaq are notoriously bad crunch time players.

Lack of perimter D. Penny was a superstar on defense, and very crafty. Regularly gave Pippen fits (still the only player I ever saw who completely destroyed Pippen in his prime.

Conclusion:

It all comes down to who they sign instead of Horace. If they got a decent wingman who could play D and shoot the 3, this team would have won multiple championships until the inevitable alpha dog fight between Webber and Shaq.

thoughts on this one? Ideas for other what-ifs?

 

[peternorth]

only correct part was the dog fight between shaq and webber. webber wouldve been shipped out early.

horace didnt do too badly at the lakers when teamed with shaq.

 

[eathb]

lots of what Ifs for the Nuggets...

starting off to the start of the 07-08 season
What IF Denver traded Marcus Camby for Kwame Brown?
they then could've traded Kwame Brown for Pau Gasol.

What IF Denver traded Linas Kleiza and Najera for Ron Artest?
they then would've had Artest who is 10x better than Kleiza.

07-08 offseason
What IF Denver fired George Karl and hired Avery Johnson? 10x better already.

What IF Denver had not signed Anthony CarteR? Actually that wouldn't matter, Avery wouldn't even think about playing Carter.

Then Nuggets trade AI for Billups.

potential team:
C - Gasol / Birdman
PF - Nene / KMart
SF - Melo / Balkman
SG - Artest / JR Smith
PG - Billups / Atkins
coach: Avery Johnson

 

[krisholio14]

Possibly the biggest NBA 'What If?' of all time...

What if the Blazers had drafted MJ instead of Sam Bowie?

 

[Karl Pilkington]

Possibly the biggest NBA 'What If?' of all time...

What if the Blazers had drafted MJ instead of Sam Bowie?

I got a better one for you.

That same day, The Rockets and Blazers were incredibly close to doing a trade of Sampson for pick 2. This would have teamed up Sampson and Glide for an instant tilt at the championship, but more importantly, would ahve put MJ and Hakeem together for their entire careers.

Can you imagine? CAN YOU IMAGINE HOW ****ING AWESOME THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN?

 

[Karl Pilkington]

only correct part was the dog fight between shaq and webber. webber wouldve been shipped out early.

horace didnt do too badly at the lakers when teamed with shaq.

Horace was great at Orlando too, for what he was.

The point was, that they wouldn't have signed Horace and would have had room to sign a very good 3 man in his place, for the purposes of their offensive system.

What about that offense doesn't work? You have a brilliant playmaker who doubles as a 20/10/5/1.5 PF. You have two brilliant shooters in Anderson and Skiles. Then you have the most dominant low post player of all time in Shaq putting up 30/12/3/3.

I don't see how that team doesn't win championships. they certainly wouldn't have lost to Houston.

 

[krisholio14]

I got a better one for you.

That same day, The Rockets and Blazers were incredibly close to doing a trade of Sampson for pick 2. This would have teamed up Sampson and Glide for an instant tilt at the championship, but more importantly, would ahve put MJ and Hakeem together for their entire careers.

Can you imagine? CAN YOU IMAGINE HOW ****ING AWESOME THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN?

If the Blazers had kept pick 2 and traded Drexler for Sampson that would also have made things interesting.

Still A combo of Hakeem and MJ....considering between them they won 8 titles in a row.....sheesh I don't even want to think about that! lol

 

[krisholio14]

Horace was great at Orlando too, for what he was.

The point was, that they wouldn't have signed Horace and would have had room to sign a very good 3 man in his place, for the purposes of their offensive system.

What about that offense doesn't work? You have a brilliant playmaker who doubles as a 20/10/5/1.5 PF. You have two brilliant shooters in Anderson and Skiles. Then you have the most dominant low post player of all time in Shaq putting up 30/12/3/3.

I don't see how that team doesn't win championships. they certainly wouldn't have lost to Houston.

I'm not convinced Webber and Shaq would have worked myself. I'd have thought Shaq's presence would have had Weber too far away from the basket. Which is why a guy like Horace Grant fitted in well there. He didn't need x amount of shots per night, didn't get in Shaq's way, and was happy to come in and clean up whatever Shaq left behind. I don't know that Weber would have been content to fill the same role.

 

[Karl Pilkington]

I'm not convinced Webber and Shaq would have worked myself. I'd have thought Shaq's presence would have had Weber too far away from the basket. Which is why a guy like Horace Grant fitted in well there. He didn't need x amount of shots per night, didn't get in Shaq's way, and was happy to come in and clean up whatever Shaq left behind. I don't know that Weber would have been content to fill the same role.

Well Shaq had a real problem with Penny taking so many shots (Shaq has had a problem with everyone of his sidekicks, without fail).

But Webber was perfectly comfortable playing from the high post, in fact, he preferred it over playing down low. The reason he left GSW after one season was because nelson wanted to play him at C and he wanted to play as a distributing PF from the elbow.

You have to factor in that removing Penny from the lineup frees up all the ball carrying/distributing for Webber (which he loved more than shooting) and frees up some more shots for Shaq (as well as freeing him from the double team).

I reckon it would have worked, and at the very least, it would ahve been amazing to see in action.

 

[krisholio14]

Well Shaq had a real problem with Penny taking so many shots (Shaq has had a problem with everyone of his sidekicks, without fail).

But Webber was perfectly comfortable playing from the high post, in fact, he preferred it over playing down low. The reason he left GSW after one season was because nelson wanted to play him at C and he wanted to play as a distributing PF from the elbow.

You have to factor in that removing Penny from the lineup frees up all the ball carrying/distributing for Webber (which he loved more than shooting) and frees up some more shots for Shaq (as well as freeing him from the double team).

I reckon it would have worked, and at the very least, it would ahve been amazing to see in action.

It would have been interesting for sure. No doubt Chris Weber played the High Post very well. I just don't think C-Web's J was consistent enough from outside 10-15 feet to be playing high post all the time.

No doubt though, that his passing ability would have made for some crazy offensive sets in that line up. Possibly the first point power forward?

 

[Karl Pilkington]

It would have been interesting for sure. No doubt Chris Weber played the High Post very well. I just don't think C-Web's J was consistent enough from outside 10-15 feet to be playing high post all the time.

No doubt though, that his passing ability would have made for some crazy offensive sets in that line up. Possibly the first point power forward?

Well he kind of worked as the point power forward for Sacramento. A lot of their half court sets revolved around Bibby kicking it in to C-Webb in the triple threat position, then C-Webb either going for a baby hook, driving to the lane or Dishing out to Peja/Bibby coming off screens.

That said, you could make a case for that Sacramento team being the first point-team as a godly amount of players on that team could distribute effectively.

 

[krisholio14]

Well he kind of worked as the point power forward for Sacramento. A lot of their half court sets revolved around Bibby kicking it in to C-Webb in the triple threat position, then C-Webb either going for a baby hook, driving to the lane or Dishing out to Peja/Bibby coming off screens.

That said, you could make a case for that Sacramento team being the first point-team as a godly amount of players on that team could distribute effectively.

Which leads to another 'What If?'

How many titles would that Sacramento team have won if they'd had say, Phil Jackson coaching them and not Rick Adelman?

 

[Karl Pilkington]

Which leads to another 'What If?'

How many titles would that Sacramento team have won if they'd had say, Phil Jackson coaching them and not Rick Adelman?

Haha good point. They really only won one under Adelman (2001).

I reckon they would have been good for D'Antoni too. Everyone could shoot, pass and none of them were really good defenders.

 

[mdc]

To Karl's OP:

Yes, that's a good-looking line-up, but you have to take into account just how young it was. I personally don't believe experience is important in the playoffs, but toughness and maturity certainly are. Neither Shaq nor C-Webb had it in 1994, so ultimately, they would have failed.

Also, Dennis Scott would have been their 3, he could shoot the lights out.

Which leads to another 'What If?'

How many titles would that Sacramento team have won if they'd had say, Phil Jackson coaching them and not Rick Adelman?

None. Jackson's triangle requires a great post player (namely Jordan or Shaq).

On a side-note, Rick Adelman is the most underrated coach in history. Not his fault the Queens were soft, it's not like Peja and C-Webb turned into badasses once they left.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Karl the thought of Webber operating at the elbow with Shaq down low is intriguing. But there have been a couple of examples lately where that dyanamic doesnt work well in practise. The most recent was the Curry/Randolph thing in NY...I know, the talent gap is considerable. Barkley and Hakeem was another one. My memory is hazy but they both liked to switch b/w low and high post in Houston and it didnt work out.

Also Sacramento had a beautiful half court offense with webber running it. I used to love watching it. My favourite basketball memories are the Kings and NVE Mavs 130-128 games where we'd be running down chucking 3s while Sac would be running their half court stuff slowly knifing us.

I dont see Webber's being that affective with Shaq down there. he'd love finding Bibby/Peja/Christie on back cuts and that stuff wouldnt be there with Shaq and his defender down there. At least Vlade could drag his man out.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Well Shaq had a real problem with Penny taking so many shots (Shaq has had a problem with everyone of his sidekicks, without fail).

Im convinced Shaq has a personality disorder.

He's always paired with these great guards but hates them after the split. I thought he was very friendly with Wade, as he saw him as the opposite to Kobe's selfish persona.

But as soon as he went to Phoenix, first thing he said was something along the lines of "At least now I can play with a guard who gets others involved".

 

[mdc]

Karl the thought of Webber operating at the elbow with Shaq down low is intriguing. But there have been a couple of examples lately where that dyanamic doesnt work well in practise. The most recent was the Curry/Randolph thing in NY...I know, the talent gap is considerable. Barkley and Hakeem was another one. My memory is hazy but they both liked to switch b/w low and high post in Houston and it didnt work out.

...except Randolph isn't a high-post guy in the slightest and was simply forced out there by Curry, and Barkley was broken when he went to Houston.

Also Sacramento had a beautiful half court offense with webber running it. I used to love watching it. My favourite basketball memories are the Kings and NVE Mavs 130-128 games where we'd be running down chucking 3s while Sac would be running their half court stuff slowly knifing us.

I dont see Webber's being that affective with Shaq down there. he'd love finding Bibby/Peja/Christie on back cuts and that stuff wouldnt be there with Shaq and his defender down there. At least Vlade could drag his man out.

I do agree with this part though. No high-post guy will be as effective if there's a low-post guy constantly cramming his style.

One important thing to note is that it's almost impossible to throw a post-entry pass to the LP from the elbow.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Well he kind of worked as the point power forward for Sacramento. A lot of their half court sets revolved around Bibby kicking it in to C-Webb in the triple threat position, then C-Webb either going for a baby hook, driving to the lane or Dishing out to Peja/Bibby coming off screens.

That said, you could make a case for that Sacramento team being the first point-team as a godly amount of players on that team could distribute effectively.

What if Webber didn't blow his knee against Dallas! I still believe the Kings go on to win it all that year and that great team gets deserved due.

You are right that team was special. Everyone knew how to pass, a nice blend of inside and outside offensive play, and a nice mix of defensive players.

We ran our offence through Webber and Divac at the high post and its arugably the best passing big man duo in the NBA history. Both were brilliant distributors with high basketball IQ.

Couple that with deadly shooting from Peja and Bibby, heart, hustle and defensive play of Christie......far out. I still get excited just thinking what was and what could have been if Webber didn't blow his knee against Dallas.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

What if Webber didn't blow his knee against Dallas!

You would have beaten us, I'd imagine.

But I am sure we would have beaten San Antonio in those WCF's if Dirk didn't hurt his knee in game 3.

Karma is a bitch.

 

[Karl Pilkington]

What if Webber didn't blow his knee against Dallas! I still believe the Kings go on to win it all that year and that great team gets deserved due.

You are right that team was special. Everyone knew how to pass, a nice blend of inside and outside offensive play, and a nice mix of defensive players.

We ran our offence through Webber and Divac at the high post and its arugably the best passing big man duo in the NBA history. Both were brilliant distributors with high basketball IQ.

Couple that with deadly shooting from Peja and Bibby, heart, hustle and defensive play of Christie......far out. I still get excited just thinking what was and what could have been if Webber didn't blow his knee against Dallas.

Its not even just that, its how deep they went.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Its not even just that, its how deep they went.

That year when Webber blew out his knee, we could go 12 deep. Our 12th man that year was a very young Gerald Wallace.

 

[Karl Pilkington]

That year when Webber blew out his knee, we could go 12 deep. Our 12th man that year was a very young Gerald Wallace.

Exactly.

Who were the other 6 bench players? There was Turkoglu, Pollard, Bobby Jackson.... who else?

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Funderburke? Peeler?

 

[Karl Pilkington]

Funderburke? Peeler?

We're missing one player, hmmm

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Keon Clark? Jim Jackson?