Discussion Nicky Winmar

[st_trav_ofWA]

Off topic but here is Nicky with the King of Soul back in the day

Courtesy of a friend as we were discussing the 1993 game on Saturday night.View attachment 902466

love the 90's fashion there .... phew.. sharp dresser back in the day Mr Winmar

 

[George]

look if you were a person who has been targeted racially in such a way that its cause you pain then the though that youcan make a racist comment without being a racist doesnt sit well ... now you may very well have been a subject of racial abuse im not assuming either way if you have or havent but im going to guess if you have the abuse wasnt as scathing to you that you felt the "ping" of the hurt behind it otherwise i dont know how it would be possible for you to net see the person making the comment as anything but racist ... again being racist isnt just KKK style ... my grandmother is racist but she is a sweetheart as well but she is not worldly enough and lives an insular life to not really understand that what she says is racist and at 92 years of age really there is little point to try and fix that..

as i said we all have those moments and as a human we make mistakes and learn from them the real problem is when you make a racist remark of action and when its highlighted to you you double down on that racist comment or action by dismissing the fact that you have strayed down the racist path ...
prime example is the "im not racist but......" when i hear that what i take is "im not a sheet wearing lynch mob racist but what im going to say is just a little racist" and in the end racist is racist ..

Yes obviously there's varying degrees of racism but "I thought he meant gutsy win" is not a racist comment.

This is how I see it;

Sam Newman isn't a racist but has made racist remarks in the past and I don't see it this way but one could argue there were racial narrative behind what he said regarding Winmar. I disagree that because you make a racist comment you are then a racist. Refer to MG's post for more on that, I couldn't have said it better than he did. My main point regarding the young Collingwood supporter was to provide an example of saying something racist and being a racist aren't the same thing, as you have said in your second paragraph people make mistakes and have the opportunity or ability to learn from them. I don't believe Sam judges people based on the colour of their skin but I do believe he can be insensitive, not just towards race but he has done similar to homosexuals and women in the past. I think the era he grew up in definitely plays a large part in how he sees the world, just like the era I grew up in shape who I am as a person and how I view the world. His views are from a bygone era and I would put money on many thousands of people his age that think the same way, the only difference is he (unfortunately) has a public platform to share those views. When I say the era he grew up in plays a part I am not saying everyone from that era thinks the same, obviously, but back in his day it wasn't as harshly criticized and you could get away with saying much worse. Look at Jane Elliott's experiment if you want some proof that saying racist things and being a racist are two separate things.

I don't agree with what he said at all by the way, and I stand by Nicky 100%. If Nicky says it hurt him, who am I to say otherwise. I am just a man with an opinion. I'm not affected by what Newman said but Nicky was, so I feel for him. He shouldn't have to justify why he did what he did. But to say "gutsy win" is a racist comment is not true. Racist narrative perhaps, but not a racist comment. Newman should've changed his thinking in the 25 years after the event despite what he may have initially thought, and some suggest there's racial narrative behind Newman's actions - that is debatable, and quite frankly I can't really be bothered to argue that point. I just want what is best for Nicky.

 

[George]

Just came across Matt Finnis who spoke about the incident yesterday on 3AW

Matt Finnis on 3AW with Ox and Marko - 3AW is Football

Saints CEO Matt Finnis joined Mark Allen and David Schwarz on Twilight Zone.

omny.fm

 

[gringo2011]

Saying something racist and actually being a racist are two different things. I think we're both in agreeance he should be pulled up whenever he says something insensitive. Newman's comments definitely weren't racist but yes extremely insensitive. Saying he thought it was a gutsy win isn't a racist comment. He was insensitive to Winmar however and yes should be called out for that.

His blackface skit back in the mid 90's was definitely racist. Sam's uneducated and insensitive. He likes to go against generally accepted views, I think he is proud of himself for that. But he definitely gets it wrong.

I'm not sure where to draw the definition line. To me you are just uneducated when you don't know. You can easily be informed of the reasons why it might hurt someone and change. At the point you know and choose to ignore it you are either straight out racist or have a sociopathic tendency towards other people's feelings.

I think he courts controversy to gain attention definitely but either way he comes out of this looking like a very ordinary human being. My grandmother would have been a bit prone to using terms now considered offensive for other races back in her day, but by the time she died she was pretty aware of why they were wrong and chose not to use them. That's progression. Deliberately ignoring it is shit behaviour no matter what it's defined as.

Eddie is probably more you casual racist that doesn't think before saying stuff. He's too proud to back down but he's had his own issues with racism, but at the same time he also championed a lot of indigenous stuff back in the old days and helped actually change the discourse. He also backed the AFL when they championed the issue too.

 

[gringo2011]

love the 90's fashion there .... phew.. sharp dresser back in the day Mr Winmar

More of a fop than Brody Grundy. Looks like he needs the Fyfe cane.

 

[George]

I'm not sure where to draw the definition line. To me you are just uneducated when you don't know. You can easily be informed of the reasons why it might hurt someone and change. At the point you know and choose to ignore it you are either straight out racist or have a sociopathic tendency towards other people's feelings.

I think he courts controversy to gain attention definitely but either way he comes out of this looking like a very ordinary human being. My grandmother would have been a bit prone to using terms now considered offensive for other races back in her day, but by the time she died she was pretty aware of why they were wrong and chose not to use them. That's progression. Deliberately ignoring it is sh*t behaviour no matter what it's defined as.

Eddie is probably more you casual racist that doesn't think before saying stuff. He's too proud to back down but he's had his own issues with racism, but at the same time he also championed a lot of indigenous stuff back in the old days and helped actually change the discourse. He also backed the AFL when they championed the issue too.

I think sociopathic tendency is probably more towards the correct assumption of him - he hasn't just done it with race but other groups too. Definitely an attention seeker. Full of himself, too.

As for Eddie - political play, or closet racist?

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

because sam newman said some nice things about polly farmer doesn't suddenly make him a good guy.

it's like finding the needle in a hay stack of sh*t. the guy has a long long history of being a pretty sh*t person. he's not a good bloke. he has a history of having issues with anyone who is not like him, be it women or minorities.

his latest thing is to go down the conservative path driven by what's occurring in the states. like many over here are starting to do. he idiolises trump and for a time there was considering running for mayor with a similar trump type approach.

btw what they said was racist:
"Maybe Nicky’s dining out on it now about lifting his jumper"

many believe that indigenous people make money by exploiting their situation. the usual cry is centerlink benefits. in this case the statement was made that he's made money by lying about the original act of lifting his jumper and using the attention of racism in sport to benefit from it.

what really started this was Sam again having issues with minorities, especially when they're out spoken. it all stemmed from Nicky Winmar wearing a shirt of George Floyd. that's what kicked Sam off.

so ask your self this question, why does Sam care so much about that? think about that real hard and you will have your answer.

and look thats in part some of the private school toff stereotype coming through ... the thing is back in the day Sam was an educated man who could use the big words the average punter on the street didnt understand .. he made a killing from using that "talking down" to the common man on the street and we all went for the ride as he used those people for laughs .. to make it worse people were queing up to be made to look stupid by him on TV... this in my opinion breeds a feeling of him thinking he is above and better than those below him and that anything or anyone that is not as higly educated and well versed as he is open game for him to target for ridicule ...
you are right he has seen how trump has used his privilage and showmanship to make it all the way to the highest office so in part he wants to be that here and for a pocket of society he apeals for greatly ..
you just need to look at his tweets the are almost mirriored by trumps tweets .. they hate on the same people , they talk down to people while bignoting themselves and push a thought of freedom of speach as long as its on something they agree with ...

he is a nasty nasty man

 

[StCicatriz]

and look thats in part some of the private school toff stereotype coming through ... the thing is back in the day Sam was an educated man who could use the big words the average punter on the street didnt understand .. he made a killing from using that "talking down" to the common man on the street and we all went for the ride as he used those people for laughs .. to make it worse people were queing up to be made to look stupid by him on TV... this in my opinion breeds a feeling of him thinking he is above and better than those below him and that anything or anyone that is not as higly educated and well versed as he is open game for him to target for ridicule ...
you are right he has seen how trump has used his privilage and showmanship to make it all the way to the highest office so in part he wants to be that here and for a pocket of society he apeals for greatly ..
you just need to look at his tweets the are almost mirriored by trumps tweets .. they hate on the same people , they talk down to people while bignoting themselves and push a thought of freedom of speach as long as its on something they agree with ...

he is a nasty nasty man

trump just re-tweeted a bloke chanting white power... was up for a while then got deleted. that's the type of person sam is trying to emulate.

i don't see how people can't see the racism in what was said on that "podcast". it's fairly obvious to me. it's not a one off for sam either.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Yes obviously there's varying degrees of racism but "I thought he meant gutsy win" is not a racist comment.

This is how I see it;

Sam Newman isn't a racist but has made racist remarks in the past and I don't see it this way but one could argue there were racial narrative behind what he said regarding Winmar. I disagree that because you make a racist comment you are then a racist. Refer to MG's post for more on that, I couldn't have said it better than he did. My main point regarding the young Collingwood supporter was to provide an example of saying something racist and being a racist aren't the same thing, as you have said in your second paragraph people make mistakes and have the opportunity or ability to learn from them. I don't believe Sam judges people based on the colour of their skin but I do believe he can be insensitive, not just towards race but he has done similar to homosexuals and women in the past. I think the era he grew up in definitely plays a large part in how he sees the world, just like the era I grew up in shape who I am as a person and how I view the world. His views are from a bygone era and I would put money on many thousands of people his age that think the same way, the only difference is he (unfortunately) has a public platform to share those views. When I say the era he grew up in plays a part I am not saying everyone from that era thinks the same, obviously, but back in his day it wasn't as harshly criticized and you could get away with saying much worse. Look at Jane Elliott's experiment if you want some proof that saying racist things and being a racist are two separate things.

I don't agree with what he said at all by the way, and I stand by Nicky 100%. If Nicky says it hurt him, who am I to say otherwise. I am just a man with an opinion. I'm not affected by what Newman said but Nicky was, so I feel for him. He shouldn't have to justify why he did what he did. But to say "gutsy win" is a racist comment is not true. Racist narrative perhaps, but not a racist comment. Newman should've changed his thinking in the 25 years after the event despite what he may have initially thought, and some suggest there's racial narrative behind Newman's actions - that is debatable, and quite frankly I can't really be bothered to argue that point. I just want what is best for Nicky.

i think you are missing the point a little though's i said before we all have our moments but when called out for those moments we have two options ,, we either learn from them and acknowledge that it was wrong then you move on (at that point you can be a person who isnt racist but made a racist comment) or you can not accept that you have made a racist comment and double down on it that then moves you very much into the racist category as you feel your right to offend is more valueble then the right of the person you are offending ...

look on the surface in isolation what Scott and Newman and Sheahen said could be viewed as an off taste hurtful opinion bringing into question the integrity of 3 men ... but with the full body of work of Newman you see a trend developing and a certain demographic being held at a lower light and their objectiond being less important , if you will being "below" him ... that in itself is racism ... you are right where you say Newman most likely wouldnt attend a KKK meeting , he most likely wouldnt directly discriminate agains a specific race .. but he will and does regularly show signs of supiriority over what he would deem lesser people (be it females, be it LBGTI, be it muslims, be it Indians, be it greeks, be it aboriginals) and that in itself is the root of racism thinking you are above someone else because of how they were born ...

saying he thought he said it was a gutsy win is on the surface just a misinterpretation of what happened but on the back of his previous comments on the basis on why they were discussing it in the first place it was a slander that Nicky has been riding the gravy train of that moment when it is nothing to do with race .. now that might not seem like much to some people and for some people that maybe the truth that they feel comfortable with... but to air this comment a few days after his george floyd is a sh*t bloke comment and the BLM movement based around his death is in Newmans well off white man of privilage point of veiw a farce to then say Nickys gesture is also a farce and the movment that followed was based of a lie .... this is again putting his well off white male opinion as the more important and authoritive version of events, this week Newman also tweeted that Héritier Lumumba was a loser and thats why he was never asked to come on TFS after Héritier made claims about the racisim he faced ....
theres a pattern and im sorry if it waddles like a duck it quacks like a duck then its a duck

Newman is a racist bigot homophobic outdated fool .

 

[George]

i think you are missing the point a little though's i said before we all have our moments but when called out for those moments we have two options ,, we either learn from them and acknowledge that it was wrong then you move on (at that point you can be a person who isnt racist but made a racist comment) or you can not accept that you have made a racist comment and double down on it that then moves you very much into the racist category as you feel your right to offend is more valueble then the right of the person you are offending ...

look on the surface in isolation what Scott and Newman and Sheahen said could be viewed as an off taste hurtful opinion bringing into question the integrity of 3 men ... but with the full body of work of Newman you see a trend developing and a certain demographic being held at a lower light and their objectiond being less important , if you will being "below" him ... that in itself is racism ... you are right where you say Newman most likely wouldnt attend a KKK meeting , he most likely wouldnt directly discriminate agains a specific race .. but he will and does regularly show signs of supiriority over what he would deem lesser people (be it females, be it LBGTI, be it muslims, be it Indians, be it greeks, be it aboriginals) and that in itself is the root of racism thinking you are above someone else because of how they were born ...

saying he thought he said it was a gutsy win is on the surface just a misinterpretation of what happened but on the back of his previous comments on the basis on why they were discussing it in the first place it was a slander that Nicky has been riding the gravy train of that moment when it is nothing to do with race .. now that might not seem like much to some people and for some people that maybe the truth that they feel comfortable with... but to air this comment a few days after his george floyd is a sh*t bloke comment and the BLM movement based around his death is in Newmans well off white man of privilage point of veiw a farce to then say Nickys gesture is also a farce and the movment that followed was based of a lie .... this is again putting his well off white male opinion as the more important and authoritive version of events, this week Newman also tweeted that Héritier Lumumba was a loser and thats why he was never asked to come on TFS after Héritier made claims about the racisim he faced ....
theres a pattern and im sorry if it waddles like a duck it quacks like a duck then its a duck

Newman is a racist bigot homophobic outdated fool .

Can agree with most of that, I definitely don't see it one way and not the other, there's parts of what others have said that I agree with. He is a dickhead I think we can agree on that at least.

Lumumba is another kettle of fish, I know people that have been very close to Collingwood for a long time and they have told me Lumumba is borderline insane...one specific moment I remember was him asking Eddie McGuire to organise a meeting with Barack Obama as Lumumba felt he was the spokesperson for race issues in Australia. I've believed Lumumba for a long time is a narcissist. I'm interested to see where the Collingwood investigation into his claims ends up going. Story for another day though.

 

[StCicatriz]

Can agree with most of that, I definitely don't see it one way and not the other, there's parts of what others have said that I agree with. He is a dickhead I think we can agree on that at least.

Lumumba is another kettle of fish, I know people that have been very close to Collingwood for a long time and they have told me Lumumba is borderline insane...one specific moment I remember was him asking Eddie McGuire to organise a meeting with Barack Obama as Lumumba felt he was the spokesperson for race issues in Australia. I've believed Lumumba for a long time is a narcissist. I'm interested to see where the Collingwood investigation into his claims ends up going. Story for another day though.

problem is the cover up more so than any behavioral issues Lumumba may have. all people try to do with that is remove responsibility away from collingwood.

this wasn't the 70's or 80s. hell it was even the 90s, when the game went out of it's way to kill racism in it's sport. it was 6 years ago!!!!!

i'm sorry but calling someone chimp in this day and age is beyond belief. then for buckley to pretend he wasn't part of it and for the pies to try and bury it, that's more concerning. no wonder you have all these players and coaches coming out of the wood work to offer support.

Paul Roos put it brilliantly explaining the impact it had on Lumumba.

and you wonder why Goodes took the Ape comment very seriously with McGuire and Collingwood, given the club was still racially vilifying one of their very own players with a very similar comment.

 

[gringo2011]

I think sociopathic tendency is probably more towards the correct assumption of him - he hasn't just done it with race but other groups too. Definitely an attention seeker. Full of himself, too.

As for Eddie - political play, or closet racist?

Eddie will back Collingwood over his own good sense at times. I reckon he's your classic casual racist. He says stuff that shows he's pretty naive about issues which is fine but the stuff with Goodes showed he would back his club image over anything else. He's swept it under the carpet but it looks like Collingwood is going to get burned over the Lamumba complaint. They have handled this extremely badly again and it will make them look shit.

Bucks should have gone on the front foot and said he used a derogatory nickname but didn't intend to hurt anyone and that he's progressed over time. An apology and a bit of love probably makes them look good. Instead it will play out by media with a background of a lot of focus on the issue right now.

It's amazing the speed that the landscape is changing with a lot of people seeming to be on board with a real shift in race relations. Hopefully out of it all we end up as a society sorting some shit out that was just ignored for a long time.

 

[George]

problem is the cover up more so than any behavioral issues Lumumba may have. all people try to do with that is remove responsibility away from collingwood.

this wasn't the 70's or 80s. hell it was even the 90s, when the game went out of it's way to kill racism in it's sport. it was 6 years ago!!!!!

i'm sorry but calling someone chimp in this day and age is beyond belief. then for buckley to pretend he wasn't part of it and for the pies to try and bury it, that's more concerning. no wonder you have all these players and coaches coming out of the wood work to offer support.

Paul Roos put it brilliantly explaining the impact it had on Lumumba.

and you wonder why Goodes took the Ape comment very seriously with McGuire and Collingwood, given the club was still racially vilifying one of their very own players with a very similar comment.

Eddie will back Collingwood over his own good sense at times. I reckon he's your classic casual racist. He says stuff that shows he's pretty naive about issues which is fine but the stuff with Goodes showed he would back his club image over anything else. He's swept it under the carpet but it looks like Collingwood is going to get burned over the Lamumba complaint. They have handled this extremely badly again and it will make them look sh*t.

Bucks should have gone on the front foot and said he used a derogatory nickname but didn't intend to hurt anyone and that he's progressed over time. An apology and a bit of love probably makes them look good. Instead it will play out by media with a background of a lot of focus on the issue right now.

It's amazing the speed that the landscape is changing with a lot of people seeming to be on board with a real shift in race relations. Hopefully out of it all we end up as a society sorting some sh*t out that was just ignored for a long time.

Lets see how the investigation goes. There's a reason Buckley was defensive. To many of the players at Collingwood during that time, Lumumba was an attention seeker. He thought he was above everyone else. He was not well liked because of that, not because he was black.

 

[gringo2011]

problem is the cover up more so than any behavioral issues Lumumba may have. all people try to do with that is remove responsibility away from collingwood.

this wasn't the 70's or 80s. hell it was even the 90s, when the game went out of it's way to kill racism in it's sport. it was 6 years ago!!!!!

i'm sorry but calling someone chimp in this day and age is beyond belief. then for buckley to pretend he wasn't part of it and for the pies to try and bury it, that's more concerning. no wonder you have all these players and coaches coming out of the wood work to offer support.

Paul Roos put it brilliantly explaining the impact it had on Lumumba.

and you wonder why Goodes took the Ape comment very seriously with McGuire and Collingwood, given the club was still racially vilifying one of their very own players with a very similar comment.

I remember in the early to mid 90s the Indigenous guys would get hammered every game. I can still remember going to a game with my brother and a mate he had from school who was boarding in Melbourne. His old man was a elder in Arnhem Land. It must have been Carlton St Kilda and the crowd was bagging the black guys unmercifully, even the side's own players. It was the first time I had really noticed how it sounded to someone who had skin in the game.

People would say stuff then embarrassed turn around like something had slipped out and they gave looks to say "sorry not you mate". It was pretty excruciating viewing. He was pretty good natured about it and just took it in quietly like it was what he expected. By the late 90s the discourse moved and a lot and players were pulled up for racism and the AFL really pushed hard to stop it. It was probably one of the first sporting bodies to really drive policy to stamp it out.

The Footy Show and particularly Eddie used to make a point of giving it a voice and having guys like Long on to explain himself. They might have been directed to by the AFL but they did it with Newman being seen as a bit of an older generation idiot when he did prickle about it.

I remember in about 1997 going to watch NSL and the Knights fans would make monkey noises and throw bananas at one of their own players. It was seriously ****ing insane. It's improving but still some way to go.

 

[gringo2011]

Lets see how the investigation goes. There's a reason Buckley was defensive. To many of the players at Collingwood during that time, Lumumba was an attention seeker. He thought he was above everyone else. He was not well liked because of that, not because he was black.

I know that's the narrative that was spread around when he left Collingwood. If he had issues that weren't heard he probably felt like he was being gaslighted by them all and ended up acting like a nut bag.

 

[StCicatriz]

Lets see how the investigation goes. There's a reason Buckley was defensive. To many of the players at Collingwood during that time, Lumumba was an attention seeker. He thought he was above everyone else. He was not well liked because of that, not because he was black.

whether or not he was well liked is irrelevant. same as if he is an attention seeker. like wise the narcism. none of that matters.

if the pies players were using the nick name chimp and management were aware of it, they're in strife.

if buckley as captain and later an assistant coach and then senior coach was aware of it, then he's in strife.

its already been verified by numerous players.

 

[George]

I know that's the narrative that was spread around when he left Collingwood. If he had issues that weren't heard he probably felt like he was being gaslighted by them all and ended up acting like a nut bag.

I wouldn't be surprised if he was never called any names. It's a bit of boy that cried wolf with him, he has been after attention so many times during his career for other things that when he comes out and says something like that I do question it, so I'm intrigued to see what happens with them looking into it. I will say I don't think Collingwood should be investigating it because if there actually was racism present then I'm sure they would do their best to try and cover it up as best they could. I think they need an independent review.

whether or not he was well liked is irrelevant. same as if he is an attention seeker. like wise the narcism. none of that matters.

if the pies players were using the nick name chimp and management were aware of it, they're in strife.

if buckley as captain and later an assistant coach and then senior coach was aware of it, then he's in strife.

its already been verified by numerous players.

If is the key word there. I am giving examples of why I question the validity of his claims. As I said, lets see what happens.

 

[Crusty Undies]

What does that mean? She made a racist comment but most would agree she is not a racist, correct?

Newman didn't make a racist comment, he made an insensitive one. I guess you could argue it had racial narratives and have said that is fair enough. I don't believe he is racist, you do. Who are we to judge. Up to Nicky to decide how he feels and that's fine by me. Being a racist and saying something racist are two different things. One is the constant judgement of people based on the colour of their skin, and the other could be a stupid comment that doesn't reflect the persons more broader character but also where the person doesn't understand how it could hurt someone, such is the example of the Collingwood-Goodes incident. People have made mistakes and people have the ability to change. You don't just label someone as something because they may haven't had realised in the past the effect their words had on other people. I am not defending Newman I'm just saying in general.

The difference is that the Collingwood supporter 1) was underage, 2) wasat the footy in a heated environment in the front row, 3) doesn't have a 30 year history of being racist.

The first time it's insensitive, every time after that it's racist.

 

[George]

The difference is that the Collingwood supporter 1) was underage, 2) wasat the footy in a heated environment in the front row, 3) doesn't have a 30 year history of being racist.

The first time it's insensitive, every time after that it's racist.

It was an example of why saying something racist and being a racist are two different things. That's all. And I guess you just gave three reasons as to why she is not a racist despite making a racist comment. I guess you agree with me.

 

[StCicatriz]

I wouldn't be surprised if he was never called any names. It's a bit of boy that cried wolf with him, he has been after attention so many times during his career for other things that when he comes out and says something like that I do question it, so I'm intrigued to see what happens with them looking into it. I will say I don't think Collingwood should be investigating it because if there actually was racism present then I'm sure they would do their best to try and cover it up as best they could. I think they need an independent review.


If is the key word there. I am giving examples of why I question the validity of his claims. As I said, lets see what happens.

it's looking like it did occur. players who have verified the claims:
- mccaffer
- dawes
- davis
- egan
- mcNamara
- krakouer

Paul Roos has just come out in support of Lumumba as well. unlike the Pies, he's been very positive about his experiences with Lumumba

 

[George]

it's looking like it did occur. players who have verified the claims:
- mccaffer
- dawes
- davis
- egan
- mcNamara

Paul Roos has just come out in support of Lumumba as well. unlike the Pies, he's been very positive about his experiences with Lumumba

That's fine but there's also players (and Buckley) who strongly dispute those claims so just because a handful of players side with Lumumba doesn't make his claims true. We will see what happens in the review.

If it's true then it's incredible how much Bucks has changed since then, there's a couple of young black kids on their list that he has treated superbly since they were drafted.

 

[StCicatriz]

He remembers going out for a night out with teammates almost a year into his time at Collingwood.

They were in a taxi driving along the West Gate bridge. Lumumba was in the front seat, and at the back were a few teammates. One had a little too much to drink, according to him.

"I had like a shaved head. And he was like slapping the back of my head to make this slapping sound," Lumumba said.

"And I remember him making a comment about it like he was slapping me like I was his 'little chimp' and it got giggles around the place."

That was the first time Lumumba would be called 'chimp' by his teammates. He was 19-years-old, a rookie at the club.

"I was starting literally from the bottom of the ****ing ladder," he told The Feed.

Lumumba felt "just a numbness" to it all. He thought at the time: "You've got to survive in this system, you got to."

"I didn't want it to be difficult for me on the day to day," Lumumba said.

Lumumba found the nickname dehumanising, drawing from a long history of racism comparing black people to primates, but he wanted to fit in.


Four weeks after speaking out against McGuire, Lumumba set up a meeting with the leadership group.

"We call Nathan Buckley into the meeting as well. Well, I called him. I called this meeting," he told The Feed.

"I got up and I spoke about my experience, I spoke about racism. I spoke about internalised racism, you know, that spoke about the, the internalised inferiority or the racist ideas of black inferiority.

"After that meeting the nickname stopped."

And this, he says, contradicts Buckley's claims that he 'didn't hear' the nickname.


The meeting wasn't just an opportunity to call out his nickname but to address the culture at the club.

Brent Macaffer was at the meeting: "I remember like we're going to being in the meeting room, you know, the players and coaches and other other staff at the football department at the time and [Heritier] getting up and speaking about those things that he's obviously dealt with internally by himself for a long period of time."

A week after the meeting, Lumumba recalls a club staff member joking about then Collingwood player Paul Seedsman's hair saying: "He had a 'lesbian hairstyle'."

Lumumba says no one laughed.

Macaffer remembers Seedsman's nickname was 'Lez'.

"And obviously with Heritier not wanting to be called 'chimp' anymore. Was it still alright to call Seeds 'Lez'?"

To break the tension, according to Lumumba, Buckley made a joke.

"Buckley gets up. And he was like, sort of looked at me and goes, 'Oh, is everything okay there, H? Is that okay? Is that okay?'," Lumumba said.

"I was just like, in my head. Just a matter of a few days before I just poured my heart out, I was so vulnerable."

That's when the communication between Buckley and Lumumba broke down. Lumumba left the club the following year in 2014.

"So, for you to not acknowledge and not come in with compassion for Heritier, that tells me a lot about you."
Brent Macaffer can't see how people at the club could be unaware of the nickname.

"I've seen that [Buckley] said that he wasn't aware of it. I find it very difficult people at the football club at that time could be unaware that would be his nickname as it was used just frequently as anyone else's nickname is around the club," Macaffer said.

 

[gringo2011]

That's fine but there's also players (and Buckley) who strongly dispute those claims so just because a handful of players side with Lumumba doesn't make his claims true. We will see what happens in the review.

If it's true then it's incredible how much Bucks has changed since then, there's a couple of young black kids on their list that he has treated superbly since they were drafted.

There was an ex player who was from America on SEN the other day and he said he felt ashamed he hadn't stood up for HL. He confirmed it too.

 

[StCicatriz]

That's fine but there's also players (and Buckley) who strongly dispute those claims so just because a handful of players side with Lumumba doesn't make his claims true. We will see what happens in the review.

If it's true then it's incredible how much Bucks has changed since then, there's a couple of young black kids on their list that he has treated superbly since they were drafted.

i'm hardly surprised that he and eddie are denying it ever happened. the took that approach early on. they're stuck to it now.

the greater crime now is the cover up. if it comes out that bucks was aware of it and he flat out lied about it (which is looking like the case), all the way until now, then he must go.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Can agree with most of that, I definitely don't see it one way and not the other, there's parts of what others have said that I agree with. He is a dickhead I think we can agree on that at least.

Lumumba is another kettle of fish, I know people that have been very close to Collingwood for a long time and they have told me Lumumba is borderline insane...one specific moment I remember was him asking Eddie McGuire to organise a meeting with Barack Obama as Lumumba felt he was the spokesperson for race issues in Australia. I've believed Lumumba for a long time is a narcissist. I'm interested to see where the Collingwood investigation into his claims ends up going. Story for another day though.

ok now please stay with me on this ... there is a school of thought that an assertive black man with confidence and ambition (even if its somewhat over the top) is painted as an insane ..
Lumumba certainly was outspoken, for sure he was very confident in his own opinion he also had his moment in the sun when the footy world felt he had something worth listening to and he was an influencial person of interest . but then he made the big mistake of a person of colour in Australia he turned the mirror onto ourselves. see he was an inspiration when talking about where he came from and how moving here and making a name for himself here wasthrough hard work and determination but once he mentioned he get treated poorly here and how we often drop the ball with our actions and our comments , when he askes us to look at ourselves he suddenly becomes a Flog, borderline insane, up himself, a sook .....
and thats the big concern in this country we like to thing we are not racist and for a large part we are not we do strive for everyone to be treated equally but if you are a blackman and you upset the apple cart then you are stepping out of your lane and thats when you are going to hit trouble ...
our country is very much accepting of people of colour provided they know their place and stay in their lane and dont make us uncomfortble ...

the fact Collingwood try to deflect and hide that they had issues when they know very well they had issues and Lumumba wasnt the onlyone complaining thats the real disapointing thing .. as i mentioned before making a mistake and learning and growing from it is how we mover forward denying it happend and turning the victim into the villan is how that racist under toe takes hold ....

watch the tradjectory of Wingard ... at the moment he is being praised for his stand , but if he doesnt toe the line again soon he will step out of his lane and be painted a flog, insane, up himself, sook....