Discussion Nicky Winmar

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George said:
I gave you one example that was from someone inside the club, my other experiences have been with Heritier first hand. This was years ago, around the time we were playing them in finals. I'd say probably 08, 09, 10, 11. I would have half a dozen experiences of my own that is backed up by similar patterns of behaviour that he exhibited around others that I knew. Now you can take my word on that or not, I'm not really fussed either way. This is what I have experienced.

You wanting to label Buckley and whoever else that is alleged to have made racist comments towards Heritier because teammates have come out and said so is the definition of hearsay.

I'm still unsure as to what the issue is around waiting for the investigation to be completed before we start labelling people? I am happy to change my thinking of Heritier if in fact these allegations are true. Is there something wrong with me wanting to wait?


Agree mate! If what happened to Heritier is true it is disgusting, especially in this day and age. Collingwood have a history of this sort of stuff, only need to look at our club and what this thread comes back to re Winmar & McAdam to see that.

I do have serious concerns about how the investigation is being run, I hope it's done with impartiality given it is not an independent investigation. It doesn't look good for Collingwood but I refuse to jump to conclusions until we know for sure. If true I will be right there with everyone else to stick the boot in!
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oh so now it's not based on what your mate told you but its also based your own personal experiences with him... what exactly were the nature of these experiences?

btw that's not the issue i have here.

the issue here is how quickly you've come to the defence of labeling any of these comments as "not racist" scroll back and read what you wrote on newman. then you've brought up Lumumba out of no where and immediately attacked his character!

that's the issue i have.

why bring up Lumunda? what relevance does he have for Newman and Co making racist comments?
 
StCicatriz said:
oh so now it's not based on what your mate told you but its also based your own personal experiences with him... what exactly were the nature of these experiences?
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Maybe you need to re-read what I posted, I gave one example of something I was told and then also have had my own personal experiences that back up what I heard over a long period of time for me to come to an opinion of what I think of Heritier.

I'm not stubborn though, so if it comes to be that these allegations are true then I will change my thinking most definitely.

You seem pretty annoyed that I want to wait for the full story. Why is that? Just because you want to label people as racists without knowing all the facts doesn't mean I have to. More than happy to wait and see what the fallout is before I jump to conclusions.
 
George said:
Maybe you need to re-read what I posted, I gave one example of something I was told and then also have had my own personal experiences that back up what I heard over a long period of time for me to come to an opinion of what I think of Heritier.

I'm not stubborn though, so if it comes to be that these allegations are true then I will change my thinking most definitely.

You seem pretty annoyed that I want to wait for the full story. Why is that?
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what exactly was your own experience, i'm still none the wiser...
 

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George said:
I gave you one example that was from someone inside the club, my other experiences have been with Heritier first hand. This was years ago, around the time we were playing them in finals. I'd say probably 08, 09, 10, 11. I would have half a dozen experiences of my own that is backed up by similar patterns of behaviour that he exhibited around others that I knew. Now you can take my word on that or not, I'm not really fussed either way. This is what I have experienced.

You wanting to label Buckley and whoever else that is alleged to have made racist comments towards Heritier because teammates have come out and said so is the definition of hearsay.

I'm still unsure as to what the issue is around waiting for the investigation to be completed before we start labelling people? I am happy to change my thinking of Heritier if in fact these allegations are true. Is there something wrong with me wanting to wait?
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nothing wrong with anting to wait .. nothing at all but i think everyone can see an investigation on collingwood being held on their current coach and president during that time being investigated by Collingwood is as credible as a billionaire self reporting his tax ...
if we are legit about finding out what happened then an indipendent body from outside even the AFL needs to investigate it otherwise it becomes a sweeping unde the rug project ....

so yes we should not hang Buckley for his crimes but at the same time you cant dismiss Lumumba claims cause your friend told you some stories and you had some negative run ins with the bloke ... we make comment on the info at hand and from that Bucks comes off really poorly .. it might not be the case but the fishy smell is coming from that way not Lumumba
 
George said:
I'm not blaming him at all. I don't know what happened. I am saying wait for the facts. My experience of Heritier isn't based on hearsay like the assassination of Buckley's character is.
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There has been a bit of character assassination goin on , processes should not be about characters (neither Buckley or Heritier) but what occurred and what may have to change. What you experience or knowledge of Buckley or Heritier should not matter one iota.


This thread is about Nicky Winmar - look how his character is being attacked......why should he sue, only in it for the money etc etc
 
st_trav_ofWA said:
nothing wrong with anting to wait .. nothing at all but i think everyone can see an investigation on collingwood being held on their current coach and president during that time being investigated by Collingwood is as credible as a billionaire self reporting his tax ...
if we are legit about finding out what happened then an indipendent body from outside even the AFL needs to investigate it otherwise it becomes a sweeping unde the rug project ....

so yes we should not hang Buckley for his crimes but at the same time you cant dismiss Lumumba claims cause your friend told you some stories and you had some negative run ins with the bloke ... we make comment on the info at hand and from that Bucks comes off really poorly .. it might not be the case but the fishy smell is coming from that way not Lumumba
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2nd your suggestion.

it's actually really poor governance, especially when you consider that the league who administer's the game where Lumumba was technically an employee has a department to deal with these exact issues.

it stinks of if we just ignore it for long enough, it will go away.

which is disheartening because that was the exact philosophy used with Goodes

especially when you consider how easily verifiable all of this is!
 
StCicatriz said:
am i the only one wondering how Lumumba is anyway shape or form related to the incident with Newman, Sheahan and that other bloke who's name i can't recall? how did we end up down this path?
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Exactly.....
 
st_trav_ofWA said:
nothing wrong with anting to wait .. nothing at all but i think everyone can see an investigation on collingwood being held on their current coach and president during that time being investigated by Collingwood is as credible as a billionaire self reporting his tax ...
if we are legit about finding out what happened then an indipendent body from outside even the AFL needs to investigate it otherwise it becomes a sweeping unde the rug project ....

so yes we should not hang Buckley for his crimes but at the same time you cant dismiss Lumumba claims cause your friend told you some stories and you had some negative run ins with the bloke ... we make comment on the info at hand and from that Bucks comes off really poorly .. it might not be the case but the fishy smell is coming from that way not Lumumba
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Not dismissing his claims either. I'm not sure how clearly I need to put it. Maybe dot points may help.

. I don't know what happened.
. I have an opinion of Heritier from past experience that leads me to believe he is not telling the full story - but happy for this to be looked into and my opinion will change if he is proven correct.
. I would prefer to know what actually happened before labelling anyone as anything.

I think my view on this issue is fairly reasonable. And I agree completely with your independent review comment. I have concerns over CFC reviewing it too and hope they are impartial.

Verdun said:
There has been a bit of character assassination goin on , processes should not be about characters (neither Buckley or Heritier) but what occurred and what may have to change. What you experience or knowledge of Buckley or Heritier should not matter one iota.


This thread is about Nicky Winmar - look how his character is being attacked......why should he sue, only in it for the money etc etc
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Agree completely, as I have said many many times already, lets wait until we know what actually happened.

Was that in the papers re Winmar? What dickhead has said that?
 
StCicatriz said:
am i the only one wondering how Lumumba is anyway shape or form related to the incident with Newman, Sheahan and that other bloke who's name i can't recall? how did we end up down this path?
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Verdun said:
Exactly.....
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St. Trav raised it this afternoon.

Happy to move on.
 
George said:
No my experiences are from the time he was playing at Collingwood, not after he retired. In fact I haven't heard anything about him for almost 10 years.

You may be completely correct Trav, I am not saying it did or didn't happen. Some players have said it happened and some have said it didn't. Again, and I hope you can finally understand this - I am waiting until we know what happened for sure. It seems like you have an issue with someone wanting to know the full story before making up their mind. Why is that?
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not at all ... im actually in the same boat that unless you know the whole story you cant paint anyone the bad guy ... the thing that drew me to this line of discussion was the comment that Lumumba was "basically insane" .. as that line ive seen been thrown at "trouble making blacks" throughout history .. my interest is spiked when its seen as though a person becomes the villan the instant they point the finger of racism ...
as i mentioned in a previous post its a very very common trend in this country that we turn brutally on people who stand up to and shine a mirror on our societys negatives ... and thats not only reserved to people of colour .. look at the connentation of the whinging pom .. the whole Fit in or F off .. the love it or leave it mantra ... the aussie mindset is ready to turn on anyone who isnt gushing about how great we are ...
 
StCicatriz said:
oh so now it's not based on what your mate told you but its also based your own personal experiences with him... what exactly were the nature of these experiences?

btw that's not the issue i have here.

the issue here is how quickly you've come to the defence of labeling any of these comments as "not racist" scroll back and read what you wrote on newman. then you've brought up Lumumba out of no where and immediately attacked his character!

that's the issue i have.

why bring up Lumunda? what relevance does he have for Newman and Co making racist comments?
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i brought up Lumumba cause Newman tweeted negitivly about him
 

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st_trav_ofWA said:
not at all ... im actually in the same boat that unless you know the whole story you cant paint anyone the bad guy ... the thing that drew me to this line of discussion was the comment that Lumumba was "basically insane" .. as that line ive seen been thrown at "trouble making blacks" throughout history .. my interest is spiked when its seen as though a person becomes the villan the instant they point the finger of racism ...
as i mentioned in a previous post its a very very common trend in this country that we turn brutally on people who stand up to and shine a mirror on our societys negatives ... and thats not only reserved to people of colour .. look at the connentation of the whinging pom .. the whole Fit in or F off .. the love it or leave it mantra ... the aussie mindset is ready to turn on anyone who isnt gushing about how great we are ...
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Fair enough and I would take issue with it as well. My comments and opinion of him is not based on race and was before the time that he spoke out against CFC. As I said it's probably been 10 years since I last was involved. I shouldn't have said insane, maybe a lighter phrase...to me he was a bit "left field" if that's any nicer way of putting it.
 
George said:
Fair enough and I would take issue with it as well. My comments and opinion of him is not based on race and was before the time that he spoke out against CFC. As I said it's probably been 10 years since I last was involved. I shouldn't have said insane, maybe a lighter phrase...to me he was a bit "left field" if that's any nicer way of putting it.
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fair call ... i dont think you personally were basing an opinion on him because of race but there is that perseption out there ... im happy to drop this subject as we are certainly getting of the actual topic and in the end neither of us can make a certain claim as to what happened but im pretty sure we are on the same page when it comes to how it should be investigated and what if it turns out to be true should be done .....
 
st_trav_ofWA said:
fair call ... i dont think you personally were basing an opinion on him because of race but there is that perseption out there ... im happy to drop this subject as we are certainly getting of the actual topic and in the end neither of us can make a certain claim as to what happened but im pretty sure we are on the same page when it comes to how it should be investigated and what if it turns out to be true should be done .....
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All good mate - yep happy to move focus to Nicky :thumbsu:
 
Was at the game in 1993 at Victoria Park.

The racism towards Gil and Nicky was relentless throughout the day.

The filth cheered and jeered when Harvs tore his hammy.

Nicky pointed to his skin.

During the week the filth president said aboriginal players are ok only of they behave like 'normal people'.

For Newman, Scott, and Sheahan to try to revise history to again vilify Nicky is beyond reprehensible.

For anyone to defend this old priviliged white man as some sort of parlour game is in my view disgusting.
 
Joffaboy said:
Was at the game in 1993 at Victoria Park.

The racism towards Gil and Nicky was relentless throughout the day.

The filth cheered and jeered when Harvs tore his hammy.

Nicky pointed to his skin.

During the week the filth president said aboriginal players are ok only of they behave like 'normal people'.

For Newman, Scott, and Sheahan to try to revise history to again vilify Nicky is beyond reprehensible.

For anyone to defend this old priviliged white man as some sort of parlour game is in my view disgusting.
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Hear bloody hear. I stood in an outer with a bunch of fellow Melburnians who weren't racist but managed to spend 3 hours of their life spewing their inner most thoughts out towards other humans. Because of a game of football. A stain on our city that we all love that day. Great to hear they weren't racist though just their words were...that mindset is one that I'll never agree with
 
Anyway this thread is ultimately meant to be about Nicky Winmar and what a spectacular Saint he was who gave us all numerous memorable moments with his brilliance, skill and bravery!

And to know categorically he like many Aboriginals and other racial minorities suffered from such disgraceful abuse is a blight on both the game and the country!
 
I was at the game... Sitting in the outer opposite Collingwood members so did not see it. I remember buying both papers next day to read about the win. From memory the the Age ran with the anti rascism stance and the iconic photo. I remember other news radio outlets reporting it using the “we’ve got guts” line. I must admit I didn’t distinguish between the 2 at the time. Irrespective we should all stand with Winmar on this one.
 
George said:
I think there's a difference between being uneducated or saying the wrong thing, and being a racist. I don't even think his comment was racist. I just think it was insensitive like many things he has said in the past. I think he holds his persona as a badge of honour, he revels in the fact he will speak his mind on anything and everything despite a PC culture we live in. Sometimes though you need to understand where the boundaries are and he has definitely crossed them often.

This is him speaking after Farmer's passing - I think deep down he is an alright guy, unfortunately there are many people his age that share the same thinking as he does - he just has a platform to make his voice heard.

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Hi all,
Long time reader, first time poster. When I read Newman's comments on Winmar this week, it actually reminded me of his tribute to Polly Farmer and how enraged it made me feel at the time. If you haven't seen it, he claims he never once heard Polly subjected to racial abuse. Robbo immediately contradicts him and refers to an earlier interview when Farmer claimed he was frequently racially abused, and rather than take that onboard and accept the man's own words, Sam's response is to double down and still insist it never happened. So yeah, not surprising he has his own interpretation of an event where he wasn't even present that contradicts the recollections of the man who was at the centre of it.

I'm sure his affection for Polly Farmer is real but he also clearly has that classic trait of accepting aboriginal players as long as they kept their mouths shut, accept whatever abuse comes their way and gets on with the game. But then feels threatened whenever someone speaks up.
 
Welcome Swedishsaint great first up post that I respect, remember the diatribe you are referring to on Polly Farmer. The accumalitive effect on indigenous players is huge. You are right there is an expectation that as long as indigenous players 'behave' they will be accepted, imagine how that would make you feel - like continually being called a dumb racist you'd react by being defensive.

Goes back to the fact that we should be referring to their experience not some bloke craving relevance by abusing others.
 
gringo2011 said:
He's either realised what he said was wrong or he's trying to get away from legal action.

7news.com.au

Respected journalist quits over Sam Newman controversy

"Indigenous players, who I have a healthy relationship with, they were hurt and angry."
7news.com.au 7news.com.au
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that is pi55 weak by sheahan ....
his reason for quiting is cause he feels upset by the critisism of him ... not that what he was part of was wrong but because some people who he likes were unhappy ...
thats poor ...
Sheahan trying to play the victim
 
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