Society/Culture Notional Take Back Australia Day

[Gethelred]

Ok, looks live we've got our wires crossed and we've misunderstood each other.

I'm not twisting myself in knots to avoid stating the conclusion, certainly not deliberately

Yes, I agree that society, by voting in self interest at an individual levels maintains the 'racism'. Just stating also it's not for nefarious reasons, it's for reasons of self interest (largely)

I did answer the question Gethy, my first words were 'obviously not' in regard to
'Do you genuinely think all those who supported slavery thought black people were lesser beings?'

So If I've somehow missed it, what is your point then? (not tryna play dumb here btw, genuine question)

... if wider society is willing to allow racist things in order to remain inconvenienced, there is only a semantic difference as to whether they are racist or not.

In practical terms, it means that the society is racist, even if not all individuals within it are.

 

[demondavey]

Fair enough.

What I've said is still the case tho.

I just don't think awards are followed and I doubt any penalties are enforced when people don't pay migrant workers fairly. From the stuff I've seen anyway, for what that's worth.

Don’t disagree. Very important to check in on the PACT website though if there’s uncertainty. I know it’s hard when English isn’t your first language. People still take advantage.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Sometimes I think we're so focused on culture wars we forget the class war is the real one.

That's the whole point of pushing this culture war garbage.

 

[demondavey]

Ok, looks live we've got our wires crossed and we've misunderstood each other.

I'm not twisting myself in knots to avoid stating the conclusion, certainly not deliberately

Yes, I agree that society, by voting in self interest at an individual levels maintains the 'racism'. Just stating also it's not for nefarious reasons, it's for reasons of self interest (largely)

I did answer the question Gethy, my first words were 'obviously not' in regard to
'Do you genuinely think all those who supported slavery thought black people were lesser beings?'

So If I've somehow missed it, what is your point then? (not tryna play dumb here btw, genuine question)



.

Yes, absolutely they did. Even after slavery was abolished this still went on.

In 1944 an African American called George Stinney who was 14 years old was strapped in the electric chair and executed for the ‘murder’ of two white girls. He was wrongfully convicted.

Imagine putting a child in front of an all white jury, taking no time at all to find him guilty then blasting a few thousand volts into him. You know why? Because he was black.

If that isn’t racism, GTFO of this thread.

 

[Carringbush2010]

In practical terms, it means that the society is racist, even if not all individuals within it are.

And I haven't disagreed with that, or tried to avoid it deliberately that you've claimed.

Again, I'll state, like in my previous post, this is not (by and large) for nefarious reasons, it's for reasons of self interest (largely).

I think that's pertinent, the intent. i:e 'I'll vote for myself, not coz I hate other people' - if that makes one racist then I guess most people are racist.

You may or may not agree (I'd hope you do).

 

[Gethelred]

I think that's pertinent, the intent. i:e 'I'll vote for myself, not coz I hate other people' - if that makes one racist then I guess most people are racist.

Precisely.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Yes, absolutely they did. Even after slavery was abolished this still went on.

Which is still going on now, as ferball explained earlier about foreign back packers etc. fruit pickers being underpaid or wage theft for work that the locals don't wanna do.

That's deliberate exploitation (the intent) from the 'employers', a far cry from the individual at the polling booth voting in self interest (the intent) that maintains the racism.

 

[Gethelred]

Sometimes I think we're so focused on culture wars we forget the class war is the real one.

While true, class solidarity necessitates protecting our coalition from those who would divide it. Attacking minority rights while dogwhistling at the conservative members of the union movement is how we are defeated apart rather than successful united.

 

[demondavey]

Which is still going on now, as ferball explained earlier about foreign back packers etc. fruit pickers being underpaid or wage theft for work that the locals don't wanna do.

That's deliberate exploitation (the intent) from the 'employers', a far cry from the individual at the polling booth voting in self interest (the intent) that maintains the racism.

You just can’t admit it, can you?

Those exploitative employers also vote. Self interest doesn’t really have much to do with it. If it did and the voice was passed with not much individual impact on people then why not vote yes? It’s not self interest at all. It’s embedded and institutional racism. It’s fed by a big conglomerate called News Corp / Sky News that has an incredibly right wing agenda.

 

[Episode IV]

While true, class solidarity necessitates protecting our coalition from those who would divide it. Attacking minority rights while dogwhistling at the conservative members of the union movement is how we are defeated apart rather than successful united.

Haha. Fantastic.
Can just imagine a whole bunch of uni students repeating that one trying to get laid.

Come on Gethy, you can disguise it better than that. That one was just lazy.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Precisely.

Then the problem is how the term 'racism' is percieved I guess. Because it's thrown at society as a pejorative.

I'm going to put my own context in what racism looks like from our conversation.

• Joe public at the polling booth votes in self interest = racist but not with intent to be racist. I think this is important for everyone to acknowledge.
• Fruit farm owner who exploits non aus backpackers / tourists = racist with greed but may or may not have ill intent toward their exploited workers because of their race.
• Racist people who just hate / dislike people of other races / colour = racist.

In summary I think given what we've discussed, the term racism is immediately defined as a pejorative, so I don't think Joe public or society at large should be accused of a pejorative because by and large that is not the intent of most of Jan and Joe publics out there.

Just my thoughts, what's your view on that?

 

[Episode IV]

... which is part of why I made it.

You didn't. davey did.

Your little Stanford Prison Experiment is getting away from you Gethy. Concentrate.

C'mon. You know precisely where you're going with that.

I do.
Humanity has a tendency to look after their own first.

Tell us all how I'm wrong, Gethy.

 

[Episode IV]

Then the problem is how the term 'racism' is percieved I guess. Because it's thrown at society as a pejorative.

I'm going to put my own context in what racism looks like from our conversation.

• Joe public at the polling booth votes in self interest = racist but not with intent to be racist. I think this is important for everyone to acknowledge.
• Fruit farm owner who exploits non aus backpackers / tourists = racist with greed but may or may not have ill intent toward their exploited workers because of their race.
• Racist people who just hate / dislike people of other races / colour = racist.

In summary I think given what we've discussed, the term racism is immediately defined as a pejorative, so I don't think Joe public or society at large should be accused of a pejorative because by and large that is not the intent of most of Jan and Joe publics out there.

Just my thoughts, what's your view on that?

I'm still trying to figure out if you've been designated prisoner or guard.

Either the rookie guard who gets hired with idealistic notions thinking he can reform the prisoners and makes efforts to become their friends, or that prisoner who curries favour with the guards by bribing them to turn a blind eye to his smuggling... not sure.

 

[RCAB]

Sometimes I think we're so focused on culture wars we forget the class war is the real one.

Sometimes? It's a permanent feature.

I just listended to Asmongold's take regarding Venezuela and given most hard-right in America argee with him... He said:

- People right now protesting about what's happened in Venezuela (all democrats apparently) should be put in a concentration camp in Wyoming.

- When pressed about the legality of the abduction, he basically said that "the law is not important, in fact, I don't follow the law, I follow whatever advances me to my goal"

- in response why the US can do this..."we can, that's it" basically advocating for a Lord of the Flies psychotic dogma and their own version of Moral Nihlishm.

But to some it up...it's just a L for the Libs. That's how most thing can be justified "morally" by a majority of conservatives in the US.

IMO they're not only hypocritical they're very ironic as well. They're celebtrting Trump (Asmongold said he would vote him for a third term) by sprouting their post-law authoritarian thinking, and it shows up because they think they're morally justified and believe outcomes matter more than process.

 

[Gethelred]

Then the problem is how the term 'racism' is percieved I guess. Because it's thrown at society as a pejorative.

I'm going to put my own context in what racism looks like from our conversation.

• Joe public at the polling booth votes in self interest = racist but not with intent to be racist. I think this is important for everyone to acknowledge.
• Fruit farm owner who exploits non aus backpackers / tourists = racist with greed but may or may not have ill intent toward their exploited workers because of their race.
• Racist people who just hate / dislike people of other races / colour = racist.

In summary I think given what we've discussed, the term racism is immediately defined as a pejorative, so I don't think Joe public or society at large should be accused of a pejorative because by and large that is not the intent of most of Jan and Joe publics out there.

Just my thoughts, what's your view on that?

I'm content calling all three racist because they're perpetuating a racist system. I do not think the why of it matters more than that it is done.

If you think about it, it makes sense to treat things this way. It's certainly how we treat killing a person: while we have different names for it, it's still murder and you're still subject to the consequences of it.

 

[RCAB]

While true, class solidarity necessitates protecting our coalition from those who would divide it. Attacking minority rights while dogwhistling at the conservative members of the union movement is how we are defeated apart rather than successful united.

Maybe it's been a long day for me and I have diminshed cognition or it could be my ignorance but I read that three times and I still don't understand exactly what you mean. Is there an example you can provide?

 

[Episode IV]

I just listended to Asmongold...

Of course you were. He makes a ton of money out of your sort.

So... "Listended". Is that, like, you were listening to him for quite a long time?

 

[ferball]

While true, class solidarity necessitates protecting our coalition from those who would divide it. Attacking minority rights while dogwhistling at the conservative members of the union movement is how we are defeated apart rather than successful united.

I completely agree.

Our public discourse seems overly concerned with culture war stuff, not concerned enough with class war stuff tho.

Classic example is what Clinton said in 2016 when she mentioned half of Trump's supporters were deplorables. It was the most stupid thing she's said and probably cost the election. And if you actually read what she said she goes out of her way to mention class war issues afterward (tho she was part of that problem imo,) but none of that was heard cos of the noise from her initial comments.

I remember thinking afterward it was up there with "Let them eat cake!".

 

[Gethelred]

Maybe it's been a long day for me and I have diminshed cognition or it could be my ignorance but I read that three times and I still don't understand exactly what you mean. Is there an example you can provide?

In Britain, during Thatcher's starve the unions in 1985-86, a coalition of LGBTQI+ people came and formed LGSM: Lesbians and Gays support the Miners. They supplied them with food, with coal and wood; things to get them through the strikes while Thatcher actively tried to starve them out. In reply, unions have supported the campaigns for rights for gay people; not at all times, but often.

What we are as a political forces are the great unwashed. We are the triumph of numbers; the unity of all workers. Inclusiveness isn't just something we do because it's the right thing to do, it's the only way we can compete with the ruling classes who have the resources to outnumber each component of our movement alone.

America as a whole is a superb example of what happens when you can divide the union movement, prevent strikes, reduce people to their minority groups and then defeat them with economics.

In simple terms: we need each other, all of us, to win the class war. We cannot afford to abandon the culture wars, because doing so would make hollow our claims of solidarity against the true enemy.

 

[ferball]

Which is still going on now, as ferball explained earlier about foreign back packers etc. fruit pickers being underpaid or wage theft for work that the locals don't wanna do.

That's deliberate exploitation (the intent) from the 'employers', a far cry from the individual at the polling booth voting in self interest (the intent) that maintains the racism.

One thing about this is that locals would do it if the wages were comparable to what they were 30 years ago.

And if locals didn't there would be enough potential itinerant workers in Australia who would think it was worth while.

That was what used to happen and the government that undermined that (Howard's Gov) also made a massive song and dance about deciding who came to Australia and how they got here.

Some of it was circumstantial too as a massive influx of backpackers across the 90s meant there was now a cheap labour force floating around. They'd happily work cash in hand for lower wages because it meant they could enjoy more time here and spend more money while they were here. It wasn't until 2010 onwards before the GFC really cut into that tourist market and by then things had changed so much that farmers in particular were dependent on that sort of cheap labour.

 

[ferball]

In simple terms: we need each other, all of us, to win the class war. We cannot afford to abandon the culture wars, because doing so would make hollow our claims of solidarity against the true enemy.

I pretty much agree with what you are saying but for one thing.

Its not abandoning the culture war that is the issue. Its that the class war has been abandoned or at least deprioritised.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I'm still trying to figure out if you've been designated prisoner or guard.

Either the rookie guard who gets hired with idealistic notions thinking he can reform the prisoners and makes efforts to become their friends, or that prisoner who curries favour with the guards by bribing them to turn a blind eye to his smuggling... not sure.

 

[demondavey]

Then the problem is how the term 'racism' is percieved I guess. Because it's thrown at society as a pejorative.

I'm going to put my own context in what racism looks like from our conversation.

• Joe public at the polling booth votes in self interest = racist but not with intent to be racist. I think this is important for everyone to acknowledge.
• Fruit farm owner who exploits non aus backpackers / tourists = racist with greed but may or may not have ill intent toward their exploited workers because of their race.
• Racist people who just hate / dislike people of other races / colour = racist.

In summary I think given what we've discussed, the term racism is immediately defined as a pejorative, so I don't think Joe public or society at large should be accused of a pejorative because by and large that is not the intent of most of Jan and Joe publics out there.

Just my thoughts, what's your view on that?

You do realise that with all 3 examples of racism they are all racism?

I mean, wow.

You’re still not getting it.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I'm content calling all three racist because they're perpetuating a racist system. I do not think the why of it matters more than that it is done.

This is where we disagree, I think intent matters, more than anything else, because if you leave out what one's intent is in their voting (for example) then you're leaving the context as to the why.

Thus it makes it easy and simplistic to label society / individauls as racist, immediately that's viewed as a pejorative, rigid and simplistic.

Like I said, being called racist because of self interest is being labelled a pejorative, unwarranted.

Being labelled racist because you have a hate / dislike for other races is totally justified. Intent.

 

[Carringbush2010]

You do realise that with all 3 examples of racism they are all racism?

I mean, wow.

You’re still not getting it.

Yes I do realize, you're just not willing to admit that it's not zero or 100, there's context as to the why.

The voter who votes in self interest because it keeps the status quo is not the same as having genuine hate / dislike toward other races.

So I guess by this logic, the self interested voter is a racist, ok then but because their self interest is not intended as discrmination then their conscience should be clear.

I'm a racist with a clear conscience.