Official List Changes for 2011

[Stamos]

Find me one Eddie Betts good performance in a crucial game, or even during a crucial period in the game.

How about his 5 goals and 1 assist against North Melbourne, which despite the woefull efforts from many of his team mates, and the maggots, kept us in the game?

 

[CarlosSETANTA]

Of course not, nor can those in charge of our list management, either side of the coin. Would be an educated decision, and I think based on a number of factors.

A best case scenario would be Garlett surpassing Betts, if he hasn't already as the most dangerous in our forward line, a middle ground scenario which seems the most likely, is that the natural improvement in not only Garlett, but also Yarran, Robinson and Collins surpasses the improvement Betts makes this year, worse would be Garlett not coming on as hoped, and worst would be both of them becoming strong contenders to wear Bullants red far too often the next year.

From what you hear from Ratten's press conferences and the consistency of his Coaches' MVP votes, he regards Garlett's forwardline pressure as an important aspect of our side, and I'd dare say he'd be one of the first picked each week.

Whilst, I agree, he's done enough over 6 years to be in our best 22, and hardly close to being delisted, due to various off-field indiscretions, he's apparently one more away from being shown the door, which can be interpreted as "one that we can't sweep under the rug". I'd say we've probably got one-two more seasons where improvement based on physical development is likely, and then after that, it's downhill, and I don't think he's intelligent enough to remould himself into a different type of player, get himself fit enough to play midfield, or be able to avoid the soft-tissue injuries he's liable to incur with those dodgy hamstrings.

Call it pro-active trading.

 

[CarlosSETANTA]

How about his 5 goals and 1 assist against North Melbourne, which despite the woefull efforts from many of his team mates, and the maggots, kept us in the game?

Yeah, probably the closest example possible to a good Betts game when it mattered. Maybe the Essendon game in '06 when he kicked two late in the game to snatch a draw....although that didn't really matter all that much, given we were tanking.

Having said that, I reckon two of those goals were when the result was apparent, and it was fairly end to end stuff that game..

 

[drusswaylander]

I don't possess a crystal ball, but form along with confidence/attitude etc. can ebb and flow.
Over the 6 years and 120 games he's been with us, I'd suggest that he is the favourable side of the ledger for now.

Yes, Garlett surpassed him this year.
Can you guarantee me that will be the case next year?

Anyway, I'm just a little surprised for the negative viewing on Betts from several here.

Considering Betts used to be one of the whipping boys it's not that surprising Harker. People hate giving up those negative viewpoints and it doesn't take much to bring them back.

Betts was picked up by the number one small defender and lets not forget how many goal assists Betts came up with. If he had been more selfish especially earlier in the year he would have been well over the fifty mark. He is actually our best forward at sharing it around despite the odd brain snap or two. I think both he and Garlett will be vital players for us. Like you Harker I find the negativity unfair.

 

[CarlosSETANTA]

Considering Betts used to be one of the whipping boys it's not that surprising Harker. People hate giving up those negative viewpoints and it doesn't take much to bring them back.

Betts was picked up by the number one small defender and lets not forget how many goal assists Betts came up with. If he had been more selfish especially earlier in the year he would have been well over the fifty mark. He is actually our best forward at sharing it around despite the odd brain snap or two. I think both he and Garlett will be vital players for us. Like you Harker I find the negativity unfair.

Feel free to back this opinion up with facts?

More often than not, the medium sized defenders did the job on him this year, Harry O'Brien and Dale Morris the main two who did the job on him. As such, I think coming up with the excuse that the opposition team's best small defender beat our best small forward is a pretty weak one.

Would we give such leeway to Fevola when Scarlett or Hudghton would pants him on a regular basis? After all, they were their team's best tall defender?

In terms of giving off goals, I think this is more a reflection of his poor set shot taking, and want to give it off at any time he has one, where teams actually pick up on this, and use it against him, similiar to how teams play Cloke and Mooney.

If he'd kicked straight earlier in the year, he'd have probably got 50 goals (was 6.11 after the first four weeks, including 0.4 against Brisbane that probably cost us the match, given how many were gimmes.)

 

[THE_GUN]

as an opposition supporter i am never worried when betts has the ball because you always know he will attempt to do too much & usually stuff it up but might get 1 flashy highlight goal every now & then.

but garlett is another story very dangerous & always does something with the ball , also with a couple of years up his sleave will go through the midfield aswell. to me garlett is a huge upgrade on betts.

 

[Sin City]

as an opposition supporter i am never worried when betts has the ball because you always know he will attempt to do too much & usually stuff it up but might get 1 flashy highlight goal every now & then.

He's kicked 15 goals against you in the last 6 games you dill

 

[Jeremias]

He's kicked 15 goals against you in the last 6 games you dill

True, but THE_GUN has a point - that's not a very good effort against Richmond.

 

[drusswaylander]

Feel free to back this opinion up with facts?

More often than not, the medium sized defenders did the job on him this year, Harry O'Brien and Dale Morris the main two who did the job on him. As such, I think coming up with the excuse that the opposition team's best small defender beat our best small forward is a pretty weak one.

Would we give such leeway to Fevola when Scarlett or Hudghton would pants him on a regular basis? After all, they were their team's best tall defender?

In terms of giving off goals, I think this is more a reflection of his poor set shot taking, and want to give it off at any time he has one, where teams actually pick up on this, and use it against him, similiar to how teams play Cloke and Mooney.

If he'd kicked straight earlier in the year, he'd have probably got 50 goals (was 6.11 after the first four weeks, including 0.4 against Brisbane that probably cost us the match, given how many were gimmes.)

So Harry O'Brien and Dale Morris don't pick up the best small forwards? Do you think perhaps that being picked up by an O'Brien or Morris might impact on Garlett and this call that he has surpassed Betts might be a bit premature. Very happy with the way the young bloke has come on mind

I concede that his kicking can be a problem, but more in the penetration stakes. That to me is a valid concern.

I don't buy the yips theory or even his lack of kicking penetration as to the main reason he shares it around, I just think that unlike Fev he does love to give off goals. Especially to the two young guys in Garlett and Yarren, who despite the rivalry, he has taken under his wing.

 

[THE_GUN]

He's kicked 15 goals against you in the last 6 games you dill

considering the margins carlton has beaten us by thats a terrible result surely
even you should know that sin.

 

[Sin City]

considering the margins carlton has beaten us by thats a terrible result surely
even you should know that sin.

He's been our leading goal kicker in three of the six games.

 

[CarlosSETANTA]

So Harry O'Brien and Dale Morris don't pick up the best small forwards? Do you think perhaps that being picked up by an O'Brien or Morris might impact on Garlett and this call that he has surpassed Betts might be a bit premature. Very happy with the way the young bloke has come on mind

Admittedly, Garlett had just as bad, if not worse a game in those 2 in question.

I reckon O'Brien or Morris are generally suited to the second/third tall forward against most clubs. Morris has a great record against Riewoldt for example. Most clubs will play smalls against Betts -McGrath and Nick Smith probably did the best on him this year.

Surpassed Betts in terms of ability is perhaps debatable and one for another season. Surpassed in terms of upside and perhaps their contribution to the overall set up of the forward-line, I think is a fair call.

Could even say that the match committee bowing to pressure from Lappin and Teague to play Garlett early in the year was a turning point in the season.

I concede that his kicking can be a problem, but more in the penetration stakes. That to me is a valid concern.

I don't buy the yips theory or even his lack of kicking penetration as to the main reason he shares it around, I just think that unlike Fev he does love to give off goals. Especially to the two young guys in Garlett and Yarren, who despite the rivalry, he has taken under his wing.

Yeah, is probably a 50/50 split on that, I agree that all three do try to get each other into the game, which is a huge plus given Yarran's penchant for a lack of intensity at times. Late in the year though, it got ridiculous. Richmond game in particular, I think it was, where he looked more comfortable having a shot from Platform 8 at Richmond Station than 40m straight out. For Betts to play the role of a leading forward and not want to take those, it's ridiculous. He either takes them, or the match committee start playing him as a traditional crumbing forward.

Stephen Milne is a very good example of a crumbing forward who has learnt to improve on his set shots over the years, and become much more dangerous and consistent for it.

 

[drusswaylander]

He's been our leading goal kicker in three of the six games.

I know that giving off goals now seems to be a flaw, but eight assists in the last four plus the eleven goals

 

[LemmingMaster]

Small forwards in this day and age to stop getting bagged really need to be able to move into the midfield. They need to be able to gain some possession to cope with the times when they're not kicking goals.

Schneider is the perfect example of a small forward who can drift into the midfield and be damaging when he is not making an impact on the scoring board.

 

[CarlosSETANTA]

He's been our leading goal kicker in three of the six games.

I think all, if not most of those 15 came in those three games also..

 

[Sin City]

I think all, if not most of those 15 came in those three games also..

Ten of the fifteen.

 

[drusswaylander]

Admittedly, Garlett had just as bad, if not worse a game in those 2 in question.

I reckon O'Brien or Morris are generally suited to the second/third tall forward against most clubs. Morris has a great record against Riewoldt for example. Most clubs will play smalls against Betts -McGrath and Nick Smith probably did the best on him this year.

Surpassed Betts in terms of ability is perhaps debatable and one for another season. Surpassed in terms of upside and perhaps their contribution to the overall set up of the forward-line, I think is a fair call.

Could even say that the match committee bowing to pressure from Lappin and Teague to play Garlett early in the year was a turning point in the season.



Yeah, is probably a 50/50 split on that, I agree that all three do try to get each other into the game, which is a huge plus given Yarran's penchant for a lack of intensity at times. Late in the year though, it got ridiculous. Richmond game in particular, I think it was, where he looked more comfortable having a shot from Platform 8 at Richmond Station than 40m straight out. For Betts to play the role of a leading forward and not want to take those, it's ridiculous. He either takes them, or the match committee start playing him as a traditional crumbing forward.

Stephen Milne is a very good example of a crumbing forward who has learnt to improve on his set shots over the years, and become much more dangerous and consistent for it.

I'm not sure if you going to get much support with Milne as an example if you are criticising Betts for his big game failures

Morris just takes the forward they want to shut down big or small. O'Brien again displays the versatility the modern defender needs, he plays on all types. Thats the modern game.

I agree the Garlett inclusion was a turning point in that it changed the dynamic and we were able to exploit space at the back of the zone, it was less effective once teams stopped always committing everyone to the zone and our players were confronted by contests rather than clear space. I think clubs also became better at dragging Eddie away from his most effective areas. I don't think bombing it long on Eddies head was quite what we were after at times though.

 

[drusswaylander]

Small forwards in this day and age to stop getting bagged really need to be able to move into the midfield. They need to be able to gain some possession to cope with the times when they're not kicking goals.

Schneider is the perfect example of a small forward who can drift into the midfield and be damaging when he is not making an impact on the scoring board.

That is what they tried with Davis and he did have a couple of good years. Still don't think he has kicked over forty goals though?

 

[CarlosSETANTA]

I'm not sure if you going to get much support with Milne as an example if you are criticising Betts for his big game failures

Was highlighting Milne as an example of players who looked gone (Thomas would have traded him had he stayed), and instead added an extra dimension to their game to stay not just on their list, but as important as any player in their best 22. Yes, another failure in big games, but not the point I was making.

Morris just takes the forward they want to shut down big or small. O'Brien again displays the versatility the modern defender needs, he plays on all types. Thats the modern game.

Agreed, but they're not small defenders by any sense of the term? Either way, I digress, semantics..

That is what they tried with Davis and he did have a couple of good years. Still don't think he has kicked over forty goals though?

Best of about 35 I think? Which is a fair effort when you consider he's usually been their 3rd goal scoring avenue, behind the likes of Tarrant, Anthony, Cloke, Didak, Dawes, etc. etc.

Physically, Davis can play midfield, he's got the aerobic capacity to do it, and has proven that.

Betts on the other hand, has teased, and even had coaching staff promise expectations of becoming an addition to our midfield rotations since he got to the club in 2005. With the exception of the occasional ten minute burst that may happen twice a year, he hasn't delivered on this.

In terms of overall fitness, I'm not sure much has improved, although with Lance's degenerative knees, he may be a chance of taking him in a time trial these days. Remember a few years back when Libba basically babysat him the entire preseason (and nearly drowned him down at Portsea in the process?) and was all for naught? No-one is going to babysit him in his mid twenties, it would be derelict to our responsibilities toward younger talent.

I'd much rather have a 20-30 goals a year small forward who can pinch hit in the midfield than a 50 a year stay at home goalsneak.

 

[Boltfromtheblue]

With the loss of Jacobs and Donaldson, I am worried about the lack of rangas in the club.
Should pick 18 should be best available ranga?

 

[drusswaylander]

Agreed, but they're not small defenders by any sense of the term? Either way, I digress, semantics

How many small defenders are there actually. What is it 180cm and below are classified as small, perhaps 179cm and below?

So some of those you have mentioned are actually mediums

How about quality defenders who pickup smalls and mediums and even sometimes talls

 

[drusswaylander]

With the loss of Jacobs and Donaldson, I am worried about the lack of rangas in the club.
Should pick 18 should be best available ranga?

Only if he is a tall we have too many smalls or...mediums

 

[Blue Dimension]

Don't write off Scotland so quickly.

He's been flogging that horse all year , similar to the 'Browne is a much better player than Ellard' comments

 

[drusswaylander]

Was highlighting Milne as an example of players who looked gone (Thomas would have traded him had he stayed), and instead added an extra dimension to their game to stay not just on their list, but as important as any player in their best 22. Yes, another failure in big games, but not the point I was making.



Agreed, but they're not small defenders by any sense of the term? Either way, I digress, semantics..



Best of about 35 I think? Which is a fair effort when you consider he's usually been their 3rd goal scoring avenue, behind the likes of Tarrant, Anthony, Cloke, Didak, Dawes, etc. etc.

Physically, Davis can play midfield, he's got the aerobic capacity to do it, and has proven that.

Betts on the other hand, has teased, and even had coaching staff promise expectations of becoming an addition to our midfield rotations since he got to the club in 2005. With the exception of the occasional ten minute burst that may happen twice a year, he hasn't delivered on this.

In terms of overall fitness, I'm not sure much has improved, although with Lance's degenerative knees, he may be a chance of taking him in a time trial these days. Remember a few years back when Libba basically babysat him the entire preseason (and nearly drowned him down at Portsea in the process?) and was all for naught? No-one is going to babysit him in his mid twenties, it would be derelict to our responsibilities toward younger talent.

I'd much rather have a 20-30 goals a year small forward who can pinch hit in the midfield than a 50 a year stay at home goalsneak.

Eddie has three years to go before he needs the same tank as Davis. How old do you think Davis was before the midfield move. Even when playing as a small forward he still never made the forty goal mark, nor do I think he had eddie's goal assist success. Equal top in the comp this season and equal second last year. It's not a bad effort.

 

[Aphrodite]

as an opposition supporter i am never worried when betts has the ball because you always know he will attempt to do too much & usually stuff it up but might get 1 flashy highlight goal every now & then.

but garlett is another story very dangerous & always does something with the ball , also with a couple of years up his sleave will go through the midfield aswell. to me garlett is a huge upgrade on betts.

Jake King board