Omaha

[Borgsta]

I am absolutely loving this game at the moment. Keep winning money from idiots. My favourite thing to do at the moment is go into Titan poker (100% match offer) and start a low Pot limit table (.10/.20) and wait for 1 person to come. These guys almost always have no idea how to play and then take all their money in about 20-30 minutes. Just now I won $12 off a guy in about 15 minutes.

Anyway what are some strategies you guys use when playing Omaha or Omaha hi/lo.

For hi/lo Im a lot looser with my lows and will play any 2 cards under 5 til the flop.

Im not that great at Omaha yet so Id like some advice from anyone else.

 

[Crosby87]

For hi/lo Im a lot looser with my lows and will play any 2 cards under 5 til the flop

The general theory behind Hi/Lo split is that you want to play hands that will allow you to scoop the pot. Don't keep looking to hit the LOW, because it's not profitable if you miss.

Ideally, you should be playing hands, as I said, that have scoop possibilities, such as A-A-2-3 with a suited ace, or two suited aces (which gives you to flush possibilies, straight possibilities, and the best low possibilities). You should also play A-A-2-x, A-A-3-x, and A-2-3-4. Other big hands are A-2-K-K or Q-Q, A-3-4-5, A-A-4-5, A-2-Qs-Ks or Ks-Js, and As-3s-K-K.

These are the starting hands you should look at playing in Hi/Lo. However, it's a good idea to play any hand with A-2 in a multi-way pot. And when you do have the low, you should play it very aggressively. Make sure if it's a multi-way pot, that you keep on raising. However, don't keep drawing to the best low hand if a multi-way pot is being continuously raised - obviously because it will cost a lot to try and hit a hand under eight. In that situation, it's not profitable to shoot for just the low - but if you flop the best low hand, as you will a number of times with A-2, that's when you play it aggressively.

The best advice I can give for split games is to know when you have the low hand. This takes some getting used to. A lot of novices shoot for the low but don't actually have the best low hand, and thus it's cost them a lot of chips for nothing. For example, if you have A-4, and the flop comes 5-6-7, it may look good, and you may want to continue with it because you have an open ended straight draw and perhaps the best low hand, but you could very well already be beat. A lot of people limp at lower limits with anything in Hi/Lo, and could easily have a 3-4 or 8-9 for the straight. So you're drawing dead to the high pot, and could very well behind in the low end, as anyone with an A-2, 2-3 or A-3 beats your hand, and if someone's raising or re-raising aggressively on the flop, he probably has one of those hands and is waiting to get action.

Both Omaha games are very good, but you can easily fall into a number of traps.

 

[dougthelegend]

Theres a good article on Omaha Hi-Lo strategy in this months Bluff (Australasian edition)

 

[red+black]

yeah i've read the article. i'm not messing with HL for the time being, still a virge with the high stuff. pic below from the under construction http://www.bluffmagazine.com.au/ (pic links may not work in weeks to come). HL ref bottom right.

 

[Falchoon]

2nd hand hi/lo SNG, 5 familiar faces on table.

I have AA69 double suited. Raised to 40-60-80 before me, unfamiliar face is original raiser. I raise maximum, UFF re raises, other 2 fold.

I re raise, he re raises, I think if you have A23 etc good luck to you, let's go , all in.

He turns over 247J, last 3 cards are 8,9,10

 

[Borgsta]

2nd hand hi/lo SNG, 5 familiar faces on table.

I have AA69 double suited. Raised to 40-60-80 before me, unfamiliar face is original raiser. I raise maximum, UFF re raises, other 2 fold.

I re raise, he re raises, I think if you have A23 etc good luck to you, let's go , all in.

He turns over 247J, last 3 cards are 8,9,10

Im about to start a $5 sit and go. Join in.

 

[Crosby87]

2nd hand hi/lo SNG, 5 familiar faces on table.

I have AA69 double suited. Raised to 40-60-80 before me, unfamiliar face is original raiser. I raise maximum, UFF re raises, other 2 fold.

I re raise, he re raises, I think if you have A23 etc good luck to you, let's go , all in.

He turns over 247J, last 3 cards are 8,9,10

The moral of this story is, is that it's unwise - and probably unnecessary - to move all-in in Hi/Lo split with A-A-6-9 pre-flop, suited or not.

And another tip for people starting out with Hi/Lo - don't play it in the Pot Limit or No Limit form (I'm assuming this was PL as you "raised the maximum"). It's hard enough trying to learn it at Limit (and it's hardly played at PL or NL, anyway). Oh, and don't play No Limit Omaha Hi, either. It'll give you brain-damage.

 

[red+black]

Annie Duke has some O/8 strategy articles on her site.

 

[red+black]

Don't think I've posted this on any other threads, so here will do. If you don't have Doyle's Super System 2, and I don't, you can still read the whole book online.

The POT LIMIT OMAHA HIGH chapter, written by triple bracelet winner Lyle Berman, can be found here.

The OMAHA EIGHT OR BETTER chapter, written by 1978 WSOP champion Bobby Baldwin can be found here.

 

[red+black]

I have an O8 question. I know it's easy, but there's one thing I just don't understand about having the nut high and the nut low.

Your hand: AKK2

The board: 78KK6

What do you have?

 

[red+black]

Wasn't sure whether to put this on the poker sites thread or here. Chose here.

Peter Rempel's Omaha blog

 

[Crosby87]

I have an O8 question. I know it's easy, but there's one thing I just don't understand about having the nut high and the nut low.

Your hand: AKK2

The board: 78KK6

What do you have?

(Note - the bold cards are those you hold in your hand.)

Your high is obviously K-K-K-K-8, for four-of-a-kind, Kings.
Your low is A-2-6-7-8, for the nut low. The reason for this is because A-2-6-7-8 beats 2-3-6-7-8, and A-3-6-7-8, as while both hands are considered "8-7" hands, the A-2 is "lower", and thus is the worst hand. If you were playing a High game, of course, 2-3-6-7-8 would beat A-2-6-7-8 because the three is higher than the two.

So in the example, the player holding A-2 is a lock for the low, because no hand can beat it. Another A-2 would split the low, as both players have the same low hand.

Of course, in the example, you also have the nuts for the high hand, and would scoop the pot. I think what a lot of beginning Omaha players fail to understand is that just because you use the K-K for the high pot, you DON'T need to use it for the low pot. You still take any two cards in your hand for the low pot, and the three qualifying cards under eight on the table. Consider it as playing two different games at once.

 

[red+black]

Consider it as playing two different games at once.

I think this sums up what I didn't understand. I was thinking that you can only use two cards from your hand, but if you have the nut high and the nut low, which two do you use?

So what you are saying is that you can in fact use all four cards and make a high hand with two and a low hand with the other two? In my example, then the worst you could do is win the high and split the low.

OK. Another example.

Your hand: AA2K

The board: AA345 (with no straight flush possible)

Do you have the nut high (quad aces) and the nut low (wheel)? The difference to my first example is that in this case one of your aces would have to count towards both the high and the low. Is that allowed? Or do you only have the nut high?

 

[Falchoon]

Your hand: AA2K

The board: AA345 (with no straight flush possible)

Do you have the nut high (quad aces) and the nut low (wheel)? The difference to my first example is that in this case one of your aces would have to count towards both the high and the low. Is that allowed? Or do you only have the nut high?

You have both, basically you're playing 2 seperate hands, you can use any 2 cards for each of those hands.

 

[Crosby87]

OK. Another example.

Your hand: AA2K

The board: AA345 (with no straight flush possible)

Do you have the nut high (quad aces) and the nut low (wheel)? The difference to my first example is that in this case one of your aces would have to count towards both the high and the low. Is that allowed? Or do you only have the nut high?

You would have both, as you can use any two cards from your hand for both "individual" pots. So essentially, you're playing two pots at once, and looking to either win one, or two (generally the best strategy is to scoop the pot [win both], as it's more profitable). Of course, the strategy between strong hands in Omaha Hi/Lo such as A-A-2-3, is that you are looking to scoop the pot by hitting the wheel, or by hitting another Ace and winning the low (say a board of A-4-7-K-8), or hitting a flush using two cards, and the low with two others (say a board of Ax-4s-7s-Ks-8x, with three spades, and your A-3 are of spades... in this case, your low would be A-2-4-7-8, using A-2 in your hand, but your flush would be A-3-4-7-K of spades.)

Of course, what cards you use in your hand depends on what qualifying cards are on the table, for the low.

For instance, if you have A-2-3-3, and the board comes A-4-K-7-K, your low hand would be A-2-3-4-7, but the ace you use would be the one on the table, as you must use three qualifying cards under eight on the board - thus, you would use 2-3 in your hand. Then, for the high, you would make your highest hand, so you would use the A-3 in your hand for A-A-K-K-3, for two pair - using the Kings on the table. Your three would act as the kicker.

A lot of people look at that board and say, well I can't win the low as I'm using my A-3 in the high hand, and there's an Ace on the table, so A-A-3-4-7 doesn't qualify as the low hand due to the pair. But, of course, that's not the case, as it's a whole new pot to win, and you can use whichever two cards in your hole that "match" with the three on the table.

 

[Borgsta]

Yeah I think the easiest way to think of it is:

You can any 2 cards you like for both the high and the low. You can use the same cards in both the high and the low if you like.

EG. A4K8
Board: 2-3-5-9-Q

You would use A2345 as the high str8 and 5432A as the low.

The reason I wrote 5432A is because its the easiest way to think of a low. Think of it as a number so it would be 54,321 which is the lowest Omaha number possible. Or 87,532 beats 87,541

 

[red+black]

What's a better low? A4678 or 23678.

I had 223K and folded UTG, wasn't sure if I should have limped to catch a 2 or try for the low.

 

[red+black]

Played two O/8 SnG's, didn't do very well. I have a theory that players chase the low and maybe that's not a good strategy on its own.

Say four players each get dealt A234 and the fifth gets 9TJQss. The flop comes down 678 rainbow. The lows pump it as does the guy with the nut high. The turn and river don't change the situation and the four guys with the nut low continue to jam it. If the pot ends up being 8000, is this distribution correct?

1st guy A2678 - nut low - wins 1000 (bet 1600, loss 600)
2nd guy A2678 - nut low - wins 1000 (bet 1600, loss 600)
3rd guy A2678 - nut low - wins 1000 (bet 1600, loss 600)
4th guy A2678 - nut low - wins 1000 (bet 1600, loss 600)
5th guy T9876 - nut high - wins 4000 (won 1600, win 2400)

Obviously a contrived scenario, but surely some players chase the low too strongly and even with the nut low, in the face of strong opposition, by jamming you could be feeding the nut high?

Sure the aim is to scoop both pots, maybe with the nut flush and the nut low, but with just a nut low going for you, even with a flush, if the board is paired, you could get quartered or even worse, as above, and pay out to the high?

Comments?

 

[Crosby87]

What's a better low? A4678 or 23678.

I had 223K and folded UTG, wasn't sure if I should have limped to catch a 2 or try for the low.

2-3-6-7-8 is the better low hand as the 3 is lower than the 4.

2-2-3-K is a hand I probably wouldn't play in an early position. If you hit your 2, that would mean you would need a board with four qualifiers under eight to scoop the pot. Eg. the board would need to come 2-5-A-4-K or something for you to even have a shot at the low hand. If the board came 2-5-A-K-J, you don't qualify for the low, of course, and you're only looking to win the high pot. And even then, you can't be too confident in any situation in Omaha that your set of two's is the best hand.

In late position, it would depend on how many people are in the pot, and if anyone has raised. If I'm facing a raise, I'm assuming he has at least A-2 or A-3 in his hand, and if he has a 2, that's one out that I need when playing the hand. But if I have position, and there's a few limpers, I'll play it.

I have a theory that players chase the low and maybe that's not a good strategy on its own.

Bingo. You should never play just for the low. When I say that, you shouldn't just be in the pot for the low end, unless in circumstances where you can see it cheap with multiple limpers. You should always be looking to scoop the pot. That's why it's very profitable to play only premium hands in Omaha, because at least two-four people will always pay your hands off shooting for either the high or low pot, and you kill them with the scoop. I posted a list of premium Omaha split hands somewhere on the boards, and I would advise playing those hands strongly.

Sure the aim is to scoop both pots, maybe with the nut flush and the nut low, but with just a nut low going for you, even with a flush, if the board is paired, you could get quartered or even worse, as above, and pay out to the high?

When you have the nut low in a multi way pot, I would advise to cap every betting round. The reason for this is it's very unlikely that someone else shares the best low hand. If you miss the high, and have the nut low, it's incorrect to fold. If you split the low hand, which is rare, so be it, but you can't forfeit the hand when you have it.

But there is a way to counter this, but you have to know what kind of game you're in. If you're at a table with experienced Omaha Hi/Lo players, and they're playing reasonably tight, and someone raises in early position, and you're in late position with A-2-7-7, for example, it's probably best to fold and wait for a better hand/spot, as you could be very likely up against a hand that has at least an A-2 or A-3 in it.

Another way is to play it slow to maximise your loss IF you're raised. I make this play a lot to be on the safe side. Keep in mind that when you miss the high, and you're the guy with the low, you're the guy who wants to be raising the hand. Remember, Omaha is a drawing game, so it's likely that there are people calling on the flop that are drawing to something. If someone is re-raising the pot after you have raised, he may think he has the best low hand. So play it slow, and minimise your loss. That's about the only way you can get away from losing money when the low pot is split (which happens to everyone from time to time), but you certainly cannot just throw the low hand away in a multi way pot, if the pot is worth a lot.

The best advice I can give is this -

Your main goal in Omaha Hi/Lo is to scoop the pot. If you do that enough, you should be in a winning position. However, you can't always scoop, so you have to play for the low from time to time. My advice there would be to learn to recognize when your low hand is the nuts, and pop it up. If you tie the low - you will get that money back and more when you scoop.

And remember to make people pay when you have the high only. People are always drawing to a low, and if they don't hit their third qualifying card under eight, you scoop. So play it fast when you have it.

 

[Borgsta]

What's a better low? A4678 or 23678.

I had 223K and folded UTG, wasn't sure if I should have limped to catch a 2 or try for the low.

As I said before turn it around. So the question now is 87,641 lower than 87,632? Answer is no. So the 23678 is the better low.

In regards to the other thing, lots of players do chase the low much too hard. If a bet bets in front of me on the river and I suspect another player has the nut low I am prepared to fold depending on the bet in comparison to the pot. On the other hand you could always try raising the maximum and hoping to push the other person out of the pot. Id recommend pushing hard as ppl often fold to a high bet.

 

[Crosby87]

In regards to the other thing, lots of players do chase the low much too hard. If a bet bets in front of me on the river and I suspect another player has the nut low I am prepared to fold depending on the bet in comparison to the pot.

I think this a great example of something I try to get away from. I will only try and win with the low if I have the nut low hand. If I know I don't have it, someone else does, and I'm folding it before I get to the river. I don't think I can ever remember folding a low hand on the river. I've either got it, and I'm calling, or I'm not there to begin with.

As I've said, it's unwise to just play any two cards under five to the river if there's a good chance it's NOT the low hand. If you miss, you've lost a pot you really didn't need to be in. If I have the nut low, however, I can only lose money IF it's chopped.

 

[Borgsta]

I think this a great example of something I try to get away from. I will only try and win with the low if I have the nut low hand. If I know I don't have it, someone else does, and I'm folding it before I get to the river. I don't think I can ever remember folding a low hand on the river. I've either got it, and I'm calling, or I'm not there to begin with.

As I've said, it's unwise to just play any two cards under five to the river if there's a good chance it's NOT the low hand. If you miss, you've lost a pot you really didn't need to be in. If I have the nut low, however, I can only lose money IF it's chopped.

There are those occassions when you are screwed over by the river card. EG. You have A25x and the board cards are 78K5. At the moment you have the nut low, however if a 2 or A come up on the river you are screwed if someone has a 32/3A. Your low would become 87,521 where as their's might be 75,321. I think its impossible to get out of that situation.

 

[Crosby87]

There are those occassions when you are screwed over by the river card. EG. You have A25x and the board cards are 78K5. At the moment you have the nut low, however if a 2 or A come up on the river you are screwed if someone has a 32/3A. Your low would become 87,521 where as their's might be 75,321. I think its impossible to get out of that situation.

Yes, but in that case you still call, because it's likely he is playing for the high, and not the low at all. You can't fold there, in my opinion - you've come all the way to the river, and it's one more bet. And your low still could very well be the best.

 

[red+black]

As I said before turn it around. So the question now is 87,641 lower than 87,632? Answer is no. So the 23678 is the better low.

Yeah I thought your method was good, but I got it in my head that a low with an Ace would be better. But I've got it now.

 

[Borgsta]

Yeah I thought your method was good, but I got it in my head that a low with an Ace would be better. But I've got it now.

Yeah I had the same problems as you at one time. I read that thing on some website and it just made it so much easier that I've always thought of it in those terms.