Our forwards, our speed

[vinum coupe]

I've been thinking about this a bit.
It's come about through thinking how we can improve enough to threaten for the flag.

Everyone has carried on about our age and subsequent lack of speed.

For mine I think the back half now has the speed it needs with T Hunt and wojo. In tandem with players who are not slow such as Mackie and enright.

Through the middle We don't exude pace. Kelly, Bartel, Corey, SJ, and Selwood are not what you'd call lightning. But with our new plan seeming to be a harder workrate at stoppages I think it will stay that way. And to be honest they probably don't need speed.

Varcoe, Stokes, Byrnes, Wojo, T Hunt can provide the outside bursts we need.

But the forward line gets me. I think it's our issue.

Naturally we need to kick goals, but I think we are missing a couple of defensive forwards with natural speed.

Using the pies as an example I'd like to think we have players who can cut down O'Brien and Shaw when they get the overlap. It seems they play a tight game but then give it to one of these playmakers who has gained some metres on his opponent.

Lets look at the forwards.

Mooney - slow
Pods - slow
Hawkins - slow
SJ - He is actually a very good chaser. Not super quick but does seem to work hard both ways.
Chapman - Not quick and not slow. But I would not call him a chaser.
Stokes - Pretty quick and has been chastised for lack of defensive pressure.
Byrnes - See stokes.
Varcoe - Definitely has the pace. Has shown the ability to run down players. I'm not sure if he could ever play a defensive role whilst also providing attack.
Menzel and Duncan. They've got good pace. Not sure they have the endurance to work up and back yet.

Is there a possibility that we could play a card against teams like the Pies by moving Wojo forward and also asking Varcoe to play patches as a defensive hunter?

I'd like to think that those two could track down players 'like' O'Brien and Shaw and create turnovers. Or if not turnovers then disposals that are not as effective.

Do you get my drift?
I think it's the pace we don't have when the ball is coming out of our forward 50. Not when it is being rebounded.

Should we go smaller in the front half?

Thoughts?

 

[witsend]

Should we go smaller in the front half?

Thoughts?

Not this week against the Hawks. They are a land of the short people backline without excessive pace down back unless some of their mids push back.
I think Pods, Mooney and Ottens pushing forward will give them significant headaches.
IF they can kick straight!! Nothing more soul destroying than creating opportunities only to see them result in kick-ins.
Think back to 2009 GF and Hawkins slotting that 1st Q4 goal. How different would it have been psychologically to both teams if he'd shanked it a la Mooney's half time 2008 GF effort?

 

[bulletproof]

I reckon Byrnes will have a big role to play yet, he is something a bit different to what we have out there at the moment. Genuine pace and a chaser.

 

[you pick one]

By the lack of response so far VC I reckon your on to some thing to which there is no obvious answer.
All I've got is is if we can get Varcoe back to his tackling best and play him as a forward we might be able to apply some pressure.

 

[meto]

I reckon the speed element is crucial, but the physical presence of big men and their ability to impose themselves in marking and contested ball situations is paramount for the success of the smaller forwardline players.
If we want to kick long and penetrating to the forwards, then we have to have the boys that can take it to the oppositions defence and create panick, when they contest the incoming ball.
That's why of late when we've played 3 rotating talls, opportunities have created the ability to score big scores, like the Geelong of old.
The flood of midfielders compliments a taller fwd line and they generally find more opportunity with this structure as well.
Collingwood have found its the way to go!
Varcoe's no answer in the fwds, surely the stats tell you that?

 

[longtimecat]

I think by seasons end both Christensen and Motlop may help our overall speed.

 

[Farmer2Goggin]

Mitch Brown - come on down , pace and endurance plus a marking option !!
Also liking the use of Menzel and Duncan as marking options who also have great ground and finishing skills. Defensive pressure may need work but I feel we are much more dangerous with these guys in the forward half.

 

[meto]

I think by seasons end both Christensen and Motlop may help our overall speed.

One's a midfielder Christiansen, but can go forward, the other is a small forward, would love to see him step up and replace Varcoe, wherever he's playing?
Could only be an improvement.

 

[Rosso]

The ones chasing need to be made aware that a chase & turnover are worth six points. Varcoe chasing down Buddy last year. Shaw & Taylor's smothers on Reiwoldt in the 2010 & 2009 GF's or even Fletch's chase down last week. It often stops an opposition goal and also raises the intensity and defaltes the opposition.

When Stokes had that purple patch against Port in one of his first games when he laid a handful of tackles and set up the game the crowd was on it's feet. He was spent at the end of it but it's that type of intensity that I'd love to see. Let's see the opposition hurry their kicks and miss their targets due to both actual and percieved pressure.

Wojo, Varcoe & Taylor Hunt are the ones with serious toe. Add Byrnes to that list and we have more than our fair share of leg speed. Stokes, Christenson & the half back line and mids are no slouches either. Throw in Duncan & Menzel and perhaps the likes of Guthrie & Motlop and leg speed isn't an issue.

Leg speed is one thing but fast ball movement is the key. With so many defensive zones in place, breaking the lines / run and carry can certainly work but a quick accurate kick opens the game up instantly. This is where marking targets and crumbers need to hold up their end of the bargain.

Don't be fooled by our age, old doesn't always mean slow......

 

[vinum coupe]

The ones chasing need to be made aware that a chase & turnover are worth six points. Varcoe chasing down Buddy last year. Shaw & Taylor's smothers on Reiwoldt in the 2010 & 2009 GF's or even Fletch's chase down last week. It often stops an opposition goal and also raises the intensity and defaltes the opposition.
..

Brilliant.

Good post meto, outside the varcoe bashing.

And I am worried you are right Pick One.

 

[darren forssman]

One's a midfielder Christiansen, but can go forward, the other is a small forward, would love to see him step up and replace Varcoe, wherever he's playing?
Could only be an improvement.

you seriously have no idea do you?

you effectively close a thread down about him and now take to pot shotting him in other threads.

you're a jerk.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

VC, Pods is not slow, as SJ himself said, Pods is one of the quickest over 20 at the club, and certainly compared to our other key forwards he's quick. That said, I do very much agree with your overall argument.

Certainly personnel is an issue, i.e. it's one of the reasons we'll have to make the hard call to tap Mooney on the shoulder if it continues to decline. I certainly think personnel is part of the issue, but it's more than that, it's also mindset. For example, as you say, both Stokes and Varcoe are quick, but they don't often use that speed defensively as much as they do offensively, so it's about teaching them how important defense is in the gameplan and getting them to be fanatical about it.

Personnel wise I have no doubt it's one of the reasons they want to fast track motlop if his body stands up, because he has the speed to be able to do this and the creativeness to hurt on the scoreboard. If he can come on, and we make the hard calls to keep others out to keep menzel and duncan in every week, along with the other smalls (varcoe, stokes byrnes erc) all of a sudden we have more speed and pressure.

It may also pay at times, including the finals, to only go with one or two key forwards (if they aren't in great form) to add an extra med/small for the pressure factor.

 

[ZosoCat]

chris scott has done a fantastic job in introducing certain players that will become very very important to our structure...

honestly we had no chance keeping the entire same team that bomber built.. T Hunt, menzel, duncan, moons CHB and milburn as a sub has breathed new life into the team and club. We needed some youth like you wouldn't believe.

Brisbane didn't do it quick enough after their great era but i think we have a new coach and new young players to atleast rebuild quicker and stay a solid to good team longer.

If bomber was still coaching us we would look tired and be a tired old one trick pony.

 

[meto]

you seriously have no idea do you?

you effectively close a thread down about him and now take to pot shotting him in other threads.

you're a jerk.

I didn't close the thread, you over sensitive Varcoe worshippers did, so get it right pal!
You bag the crap out of Mackie, Byrnes, Lonergan, etc, but we're not allowed to discuss your idol. Hypocracy!

 

[Gladbaqs]

Is there a possibility that we could play a card against teams like the Pies by moving Wojo forward and also asking Varcoe to play patches as a defensive hunter?

Chris Scott might be a step ahead of you. The tackle and goal from 20 metres out on Andrejs Everitt shows a willingness to use Wojcinski to provide more forward pressure.

In don't know what to do about Varcoe. I want him to realise he's Geelong's best player. Imagine implanting Selwood's confidence into his brain.

Given the fact that Corey, Ottens and Ling are performing above (my) expectations, Varcoe can probably resume forward defensive duties full time until needed for midfield at a later stage.

 

[darren forssman]

I didn't close the thread, you over sensitive Varcoe worshippers did, so get it right pal!
You bag the crap out of Mackie, Byrnes, Lonergan, etc, but we're not allowed to discuss your idol. Hypocracy!

im not a varcoe worshipper, nor is he my idol. he is just a naughty little boy.

that thread was shut down coz you derailed it with your hatred. in fact, the same things that you accuse varcoe of lacking you're happy to see in hawkins. go figure. varcoe is a daniel wells type player, not selwood or bartel.

football has moved on mr dinosaur, there are all types that make up a team nowadays.

 

[cynical]

Pods is fairly fast.

It's Hawkins and Mooney that make the forward half slow.

I'd also like to see Varcoe play more forward and Stokes to the midfield.

Varcoe is a much stronger body and a very good tackler.

Stokes is a smart player and good at getting the ball out off the middle but his defensive pressure is lacking. He gets mauled by the bigger defenders.

With 2 of Hawkins, Mooney and Stokes in the forward line our defensive pressure is really poor.

 

[Selwood_14]

Chris Scott might be a step ahead of you. The tackle and goal from 20 metres out on Andrejs Everitt shows a willingness to use Wojcinski to provide more forward pressure.

Wojo said in his post-match interview that it was good to get down forward and snag a few, so don't be surprised to see him start off the wing and go forward more, rather than start off half-back and move forward to the wing.

I think with Taylor Hunt starting to really come good it has allowed Geelong to move Wojo forward more with the view to hitting the scoreboard

 

[Partridge]

In don't know what to do about Varcoe. I want him to realise he's Geelong's best player. Imagine implanting Selwood's confidence into his brain.

Varcoe isn't even close to being Geelong's best player. Not while Scarlett and Chapman are walking upright. Bartel too.

Has some serious talent, but he's got to work harder than he did the other night. Strange thing is he was doing it previously.

 

[Vdubs]

Varcoe isn't even close to being Geelong's best player. Not while Scarlett and Chapman are walking upright. Bartel too.

Has some serious talent, but he's got to work harder than he did the other night. Strange thing is he was doing it previously.

The true question right now is, can you accept Varcoe to play a lesser role for a few months in the 1's? More an outside Daniel Wells type role? Until his shoulder is fully rehabilitated. Personally, I'd rather have him in the 1's even while he is not able to do his desperate, play like there's no tomorrow type tackles. They will come, but we did post this just after his surgery that he would take some time getting back to that level. His strength has been in part related to doing those types of inpirational Buddy catching tackles, but he must also be able to have other useful roles, like goal-kicking, or tying up a really good player who's tagging him.

Talent is not the issue. I can hear you saying "well if he's not physically up to it, stiff. Wait until he is. Play somebody who is." So have I just answered for you? Sorry Partridge, but I do not think it is black and white.

As far as talent, he IS our most naturally talented player now that GAJ has left. So if he is able to achieve his full potential, I truly believe he will be our best player.. Right now, no.

 

[winty]

Varcoe isn't even close to being Geelong's best player. Not while Scarlett and Chapman are walking upright. Bartel too.

Has some serious talent, but he's got to work harder than he did the other night. Strange thing is he was doing it previously.

I'm wondering if he was carrying some kind of injury on Saturday night. I remember seeing some footage of him in the rooms at half time, and it looked like he had a bit of a limp up.

 

[Mooney_d'King]

If we had, let's call it a "forward press", we might largely avoid these problems - the harder the opposition find it to get the ball out, the more opportunities there are for a turn-over and hence a score. You get midfielders in there that are creative etc and away you go.

I haven't particular noticed that Geelong have done it consistently yet - has anyone noticed?

However I suppose if it's a quick clearance from a centre bounce there's no time for that, so you'd have to hope that if the big guys can't hold their marks that we've got crumbers. I'm happy with Varcoe, Duncan, Stokes, Johhno, Chappie, Jimmy, Duncan etc being in the rotation mix for that. If there's a perceived lack of speed, maybe it can be made up for with player quality.

 

[Partridge]

The true question right now is, can you accept Varcoe to play a lesser role for a few months in the 1's? More an outside Daniel Wells type role?

If there's one player in the competition I do NOT want Varcoe to become, it's Daniel Wells. One of the most overrated players I have ever seen.

Talent is not the issue. I can hear you saying "well if he's not physically up to it, stiff. Wait until he is. Play somebody who is." So have I just answered for you? Sorry Partridge, but I do not think it is black and white.

As far as talent, he IS our most naturally talented player now that GAJ has left. So if he is able to achieve his full potential, I truly believe he will be our best player.. Right now, no.

This is the thing, I saw Varcoe against Carlton in the final practice match, and he was doing the hard things. So it can't be just about the shoulder injury.

Chris Scott when praising Christensen openly said every Geelong player is expected to put his head over the ball. Right now Varcoe isn't. That's my only concern. Once he does that again he'll be fine.

 

[winty]

If we had, let's call it a "forward press", we might largely avoid these problems - the harder the opposition find it to get the ball out, the more opportunities there are for a turn-over and hence a score. You get midfielders in there that are creative etc and away you go.

I haven't particular noticed that Geelong have done it consistently yet - has anyone noticed?

Only time I've noticed us playing a forward press was against Port, and it was rather effective, as we doubled their inside 50's for the match.

 

[you pick one]

If there's one player in the competition I do NOT want Varcoe to become, it's Daniel Wells. One of the most overrated players I have ever seen.




This is the thing, I saw Varcoe against Carlton in the final practice match, and he was doing the hard things. So it can't be just about the shoulder injury.

Chris Scott when praising Christensen openly said every Geelong player is expected to put his head over the ball. Right now Varcoe isn't. That's my only concern. Once he does that again he'll be fine.

I really didn't take much notice of what he was doing until the Port game but in that and the Sydney encounter he really appeared he was trying to avoid the physical stuff,I still think It's got a fair bit to do with the shoulder.
Original wasn't he only supposed to be back playing about now?
Hope they get this right a dislocation now could almost be the end of his season I reckon.