Training Our players and basic skills

[Cesoir]

Thanks mate, a top bloke might be overstating it.

I have been a lot more critical lately. I don't get as much time lately but it feels that the intensity isn't there compared to early Lyon seasons.

I think we all waver somewhere between gnashing our teeth and doing cartwheels. When I'm feeling really down about the club I try to just stay off BF, because negativity feeds negativity and I'd just rather wait until things improve. And funnily enough they always do

 

[blue shark]

I heard Adam Simpson on P-argh last night, haze asked him about whether they train skills much and if this has increased in past years.
Simmo seemed to answer honestly that no they didn’t focus on it and no they haven’t increased skills load.
He also commented they don’t rule out a draftee if skills aren’t top notch.

Something doesn’t add up there ...



On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

I can start to watch some of their games, but the rub of the green, and I usually do something else. They are a team that pushes the
boundaries of fair play, similar to the unfashionable Hawks, especially in marking contests. The slight nudges, blocking, engaging
contact just enough to influence the contest.
The only way around this is to kick to moving players out in front and divide conquer their back line.
Also doesn't help that we do not hold tackles anymore and most teams these days drop the ball and get away with it.
Fix the soft contact, better tackling and get in their faces, we have seen what happens with a hard tag.

 

[FreoMonocle]

Posters on here have nailed why the pressure / all out effort game style of Ross needs to evolve but also why it probably won't.

When life give you lemons, make lemon juice.

Ross used the team the way he did because the list at hand didn't let him do slick execution and smart playing. A chain of possession, stuffed up by a spud, throws away all the good work done by everyone else. We had a few guns, but had too many players in the too good for vfl/wafl not good enough for AFL bracket. So, if you can't play a fast skills based game, bring them down to your level with a high pressure game.

The playing list has evolved though. We now have more skills in the team and in round 1, I think we saw what we want to evolve into - skilled, slick transition forward to a dominant forward target. Round 1 did not look like any game we played in 2012-2015. It's all very well against witches hats (Training or North Melbourne), but other teams aren't going to let you do it your way if they can help it, sure enough the pressure exerted on us foobarred our objective of slick skills and fast transition forward. But aside from a set shot at goal where it's just the player and their skill, if the team cohesion is not there, the ball carrier lacks good options for disposal and protection by team mates, so the opportunity for slick ball movement is greatly diminished.

When it's no longer lot's of new faces, they'll work better as a team which will let the skills shine.

 

[Square Peg]

When life give you lemons, make lemon juice.

Ross used the team the way he did because the list at hand didn't let him do slick execution and smart playing. A chain of possession, stuffed up by a spud, throws away all the good work done by everyone else. We had a few guns, but had too many players in the too good for vfl/wafl not good enough for AFL bracket. So, if you can't play a fast skills based game, bring them down to your level with a high pressure game.

The playing list has evolved though. We now have more skills in the team and in round 1, I think we saw what we want to evolve into - skilled, slick transition forward to a dominant forward target. Round 1 did not look like any game we played in 2012-2015. It's all very well against witches hats (Training or North Melbourne), but other teams aren't going to let you do it your way if they can help it, sure enough the pressure exerted on us foobarred our objective of slick skills and fast transition forward. But aside from a set shot at goal where it's just the player and their skill, if the team cohesion is not there, the ball carrier lacks good options for disposal and protection by team mates, so the opportunity for slick ball movement is greatly diminished.

When it's no longer lot's of new faces, they'll work better as a team which will let the skills shine.

You don't need to be an AFL player to stand goal side of your forward at a stoppage, not leap for the ball when two of your taller teammates are already leaping, go hard when it's your turn to put your body on the line, put your head over the ball when it is on the ground, take possession of the ball before you are trying to dispose of it etc. Kids and amateur teams do those things. Do you honestly think our AFL players do them well?
I'm worried about basic basic stuff, not hitting a guy 50 metres away on the tit with a footpass.

 

[trentjac]

He must have a good market going in Europe. All those cheese chasers have to be buying them up in droves surely.
View attachment 650924

Category B rookies right there.
Ross likes their effort and determination, however they will all have to prove themselves as Half Backs.

 

[BlueE]

I heard Adam Simpson on P-argh last night, haze asked him about whether they train skills much and if this has increased in past years.
Simmo seemed to answer honestly that no they didn’t focus on it and no they haven’t increased skills load.
He also commented they don’t rule out a draftee if skills aren’t top notch.

Something doesn’t add up there ...

On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Simpson added an extra skills session to the training programme when he first arrived, so don't think they've increased the skills load since then.

Also prob true they don't rule out draftees, they picked up Ainsworth who's got the worse kick on him, often misses or goes OOB, but he gets major possessions.

I had reason to watch a few sessions in holidays and was impressed that the skills were slick, drills in small groups in modified sims were intense and changes with the players rotating to the next group was quick.

 

[Frigate]

I do have to have a laugh at some posts about this. My rant to those that over-rate our list and think it can magically be a top 4 side overnight.

Comparisons to last years premiers and a team that finished 14th- a team that finished with 16 wins and us that finished with 8 is laughable in itself. Perhaps 10 teams are doing everything wrong who finished out of the 8.

Perhaps Richmond who finished with 18 wins last year, and now looking like not getting near that are suddenly doing everything wrong, and also need to focus on skills - Martin is suddenly not as "skilled" - he has clearly not been practicing enough.

Skills are largely in built, and depending on how a team is performing will entail how a player is perceived to be performing. Players around 21+ will have a lot of difficulty in making in roads in skills at the top level - the speed, pace and pressure is just nothing like training or WAFL etc could prepare you for.
Every drill, simulation and work done at training the emphasis is guaranteed to be set at a particular level. Whether players can achieve elite status and maintain it is the difference comparatively to other teams, and most likely the ratio of wins to losses over time.
If players turn up to training and say "I need to practice my kicking, because I can not hit a target over 30m under pressure" then you can show them the door. This is not local colts training. We are talking of the best athletes in the country, playing at the top level.

I am aware of the golfing quote "the more I practice, the luckier I get" - but Arnold Palmer was one of "the big 3" of all time golfers. It is like comparing Ablett Junior with Pendlebury and Judd with Masten - you can give better examples I am sure. Many players that win premierships are not elite, but have enough naturally gifted players around them to make them look genuinely A grade - I am not saying Masten looks A grade either - but he did get a premiership medal and deserves a lot of credit for that achievement IMO (as with anyone that gets one).

What about us? - we have a young midfield, which is simply not close to the top teams. If we had Stephen Hill and Blakely in the team, that would be 2 of our best kicks in the team - meaning we could drop 2 of our worst performers. It makes a significant difference, as Richmond will find out - they may have a spike this week and next, but that will balance out as the year progresses (it is hard to see them winning this week). This could be similar to Fyfe out this week, we may see a spike from younger players trying to prove themselves.

Finally, I am pretty sure that a coach of Ross's experience, he would clearly understand game day preparation and exactly what it means.
Game day : the best preparation in the world for a particular team on any given weekend may give a slight to moderate increase in performance to everyone on game day, likewise if this is down one week it may give a slight to modest decrease. Remember the same goes for the opposition, and then confidence will go up and down also.

You can take a sport like tennis, golf, cricket or surfing or anything really, the players at the top always look more "skilful" it is not because they work on their skills more, it is just because THEY ARE MORE SKILLFUL. You simply do not get many players outside the top echelon that say "I am going to work harder on my skills so I can be like Federer", and then practice their skills more and be like the great man. There are examples were some have done just that, but it is rare.

So with the list we have, we have enough "A level" players as a solid foundation to be competitive most weeks in my opinion, however I cannot see the upside in quite a few players on our list, and we really need our whole list available. We are in trouble when we take out 3 of our top 10 players, as they are replaced by players that have trouble standing out at WAFL level.

 

[awaremind]

Im pretty sure skills are part gift, part practice, i dont believe the excellent kicking hawthorn team was selected at the draft, surely there wss a strong focus at training too.

 

[Frigate]

Im pretty sure skills are part gift, part practice, i dont believe the excellent kicking hawthorn team was selected at the draft, surely there wss a strong focus at training too.

They would make it in a current edition of Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers" book. They have had an amazing journey. Saying that they did "draft" Frawley, McEvoy, Impey, Mitchel, Wingard, Burgoyne...they are on the current list - probably others over the last 5 years or so.
Still many predicted they would fall last year. Without Mitchel this year I think they will struggle this year to make the 8. Many have said this for many years. They have the injury to their best player now. It hurts.

Awaremind, you do make a valid point, however can you back it up with other clubs? Picking the best team in the history of the AFL as a comparison to any club is kind of like comparing our current list to the Eagles and asking why we are not performing like them. Ask Carlton or Brisbane why they have not matched the Hawks, or the Bulldogs why they have failed after a break out year, or Port promising a flag, or Adelaide wanting a flag and not making the 8.
Collingwood are just another team not to win a flag. The same as the Saints. The same as Melbourne. The same as Freo. You can get there, you might not win one though (Pies won in 1990 then 20 years later in 2010, they are nearly due - if you go back further it was 1958(but we kind of look to 1990 as the start of the official format - every team is kind of equal - but some have a longer history of hurt).

We are not alone trying to be like the others. This is the second year I have been happy with our trading periods. IT has been amazing, and will prove dividends at the back end of this year into the next 5 I believe.

 

[awaremind]

They would make it in a current edition of Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers" book. They have had an amazing journey. Saying that they did "draft" Frawley, McEvoy, Impey, Mitchel, Wingard, Burgoyne...they are on the current list - probably others over the last 5 years or so.
Still many predicted they would fall last year. Without Mitchel this year I think they will struggle this year to make the 8. Many have said this for many years. They have the injury to their best player now. It hurts.

Awaremind, you do make a valid point, however can you back it up with other clubs. Picking the best team in the history of the AFL as a comparison to any club is kind of like comparing our current list to the Eagles and asking why we are not performing like them. Ask Carlton or Brisbane why they have not matched the Hawks, or the Bulldogs why they have failed after a break out year, or Port promising a flag, or Adelaide wanting a flag and not making the 8.
Collingwood are just another team not to win a flag. The same as the Saints. The same as Melbourne. The same as Freo. You can get there, you might not win one though (Pies one an early one, I mean in the past 20 years).

We are not alone trying to be like the others. This is the second year I have been happy with our trading periods. IT has been amazing, and will prove dividends at the back end of this year into the next 5 I believe.

I hope you are right, but all the really good teams have combined better than average skills with mental toughness, both of which only develop with strong leaders in the playing group as well as good coaching. Looking at some great teams like adelaide of late nineties, Brisbane,Geelong and Hawthorn, they all had great leaders, and you could tell they brought that leadership to training as much as they big games.

 

[Frigate]

I hope you are right, but all the really good teams have combined better than average skills with mental toughness, both of which only develop with strong leaders in the playing group as well as good coaching. Looking at some great teams like adelaide of late nineties, Brisbane,Geelong and Hawthorn, they all had great leaders, and you could tell they brought that leadership to training as much as they big games.

That is fair, it was a different era. Brisbane got many sanctions and had arguably the best midfield of all time. I guess I was in my prime years when Brisbane had that awesome run. It is funny, but as Fitzroy and the Brisbane were a bit of a laughing stock, when they came good, you just wanted to watch because it was amazing footy. I think we were like that when we made the GF out of nowhere really. Our highlight was a mexican wave and cheering a massive defeat to Essendon in our first final.

So yes, culture of a club and expectation - we have a long way to go. We have finished top of the table, we have made a GF. So now the only thing left is a GF (win), anything less than that will mean nothing and it may not happen - at least in my life time (and I am happy with that, as long as we have the Freo culture I know - clive, scott, dale, nat, david, matthew, many more). I have this crazy idea that we keep comparing what we are doing, and assuming it is wrong, and we should just be sometimes looking at the players for what they are and appreciating what they contribute. Ethan Hughes has always been a favourite of mine, as I have always seen him as this fearless kid that has good technique and decent smarts. I almost hope he moves to a club that appreciates him. I think we do this to a lot of players. The ones about ready to break out, needing support, as a losing club, we act like losers and bag them and they leave and come good. Time to shut down s**t supporters I reckon... I am out, sleep beckons, awaremind, thanks for the civil correspondence.

 

[Kram]

I always thought with footy it was always never that difficult for the most part to nail down skills at training, the real challenge was to be able to carry it over into the heat of the battle in a real game under real pressure.

This is difficult to simulate at training.

 

[awaremind]

I always thought with footy it was always never that difficult for the most part to nail down skills at training, the real challenge was to be able to carry it over into the heat of the battle in a real game under real pressure.

This is difficult to simulate at training.

Is it really? You can do drills with defenders putting pressure on ? Obviously the stronger pressure the more chance of injury, so you dont go too hard. The best teams i played against were almost always the ones that trained the hardest and were the fittest and most skilled as a result. You dont do that without good team unity, and tough but fair, respected leaders. Teams that rely on raw talent are usually rabbles, and ones that rely on ultra defensive games are limited.

 

[Kram]

Is it really? You can do drills with defenders putting pressure on ? Obviously the stronger pressure the more chance of injury, so you dont go too hard.

You can and it helps but as you say you can't obviously can't go anywhere near 100% so when you have back of your mind you always know that a team mate isn't going to bury you into next week the skills are pretty easy to get right.

 

[creamygoodness]

I can start to watch some of their games, but the rub of the green, and I usually do something else. They are a team that pushes the
boundaries of fair play, similar to the unfashionable Hawks, especially in marking contests. The slight nudges, blocking, engaging
contact just enough to influence the contest.
The only way around this is to kick to moving players out in front and divide conquer their back line.
Also doesn't help that we do not hold tackles anymore and most teams these days drop the ball and get away with it.
Fix the soft contact, better tackling and get in their faces, we have seen what happens with a hard tag.

Strangely enough, I always thought our backline were masters of edging out opponents so a teammate could mark it when the ball came into our D50 during the 2012-2015 period. Dawson, McPharlin and Johnno had great synergy at it. Doesn't seem to happen anymore.

 

[apuchar]

Ross prefers to dig a trench with a shovel rather than a backhoe. Annoying as that is.

 

[BlueE]

I always thought with footy it was always never that difficult for the most part to nail down skills at training, the real challenge was to be able to carry it over into the heat of the battle in a real game under real pressure.

This is difficult to simulate at training.

That's the point I'm been pushing for a while. It's difficult to simulate but there are training drills that are designed to practice skills by simulating pressure in a game without full 100% match simulation. I call it perceived pressure as they are designed for the player to experience close to game pressure through controlling different variables.

Coaches that are students of the game with a wide experience should be planning and executing these sort of drills.

 

[Scham]

The pathetic skill level from our players today playing for Peel shows me that our development coaching aren’t getting extra sessions into our guys either. The program is broken.

The WC youngsters and even the non AFL listed WC players showed more skill than our players.

The program is broken.

 

[muzzington]

Truth is, the program was rigged from the start.

 

[wayToGo_]

The pathetic skill level from our players today playing for Peel shows me that our development coaching aren’t getting extra sessions into our guys either. The program is broken.

The WC youngsters and even the non AFL listed WC players showed more skill than our players.

The program is broken.

Agree with this except the bolded part. Venables was terrible. O'Neill, Cameron, Foley, Brander all pretty ordinary as well. It was their senior players that got the job done imo - Waterman, Schofield, McInnes etc. Grey was also a lot better than last week. I thought Carter showed the most of the youngsters from both sides.

 

[Square Peg]

Again I honestly don't know why our AFL players can't do simple things. We do so much right but the basic clangers, good God they're bad.