Opinion Our running defender conundrum

[Jhye Clark 13]

Without being privy to the extent of Thurlow's knee injury, I'm fearing the worst and looking for his replacement in our defensive structure.

With options limited I'm going to throw a curve ball and throw Daniel Menzel's name into the mix, whilst asking a simple question that I think is relevant.

Is it too late in the pre-season to trial a player not accustomed to that role?

I think Menzel's game suits the backline and think he could blossom in a role that we're devoid of options.

He's good in the air, has reasonable closing speed, is fairly adept at ground level and the position will lessen the impact on his knees somewhat. The only query is whether or not he has the defensive capabilities.

If not Menzel then who?

Murdoch?
Cowan?

And if you're reading this Chris Scott, our beloved coach, If I see Bartel in defence again I'll be personally be paying you a visit with scythe in hand.

 

[catempire]

I was a bit bored late last night and the replay of yesterday's game was on. So I decided to look at every rebound from defence we made. I only made it through the first half. Here it is, FWIW:

First Quarter:

1. Essendon kicks long inside 50, we have four defenders back. Taylor marks who kicks to Henderson to Duncan to Enright to Henderson to Duncan to McCarthy to Caddy (speccy). Goal.
2. From HBF, Caddy gets free kick. Kicks long into corridor to Gregson, to Cockatoo who attempts to hit Kersten but it goes through for a behind.
3. Ball in dispute at CHB. Caddy wins it, handballs to Duncan who chips wide to Lang. Kicks long to half forward and ball spoiled over line.
4. McKernan kicks a behind. Thurlow kicks out inside centre square. Geelong wins push out free in marking contest. Vardy kicks long to Duncan who is streaming forward. Duncan finds Hawkins inside 50m. Goal.
5. Essendon blazes inside 50m and Henderson marks. Chips to Bartel. Bartel kicks long down the line. Ball in dispute over for throw in Geelong half forward.
6. Geelong wins free from throw in in Essendon's forward pocket. Stanley kicks wide. Ball spoiled over line Essendon half back.
7. Essendon kicks high inside 50m. Kolo marks. Kicks to Motlop who gives terrible handball to Duncan who taps back to Motlop who handballs out to Enright who composes and finds GHS in centre square. Handball to Murdoch who kicks inside 50m to a contest one-on-one which Hawkins loses (ball over Hawkins head).
8. Essendon kicks to a contest at half forward, Kolo collects who handballs to Enright to Guthrie who kicks long left foot down the line to contest. Essendon gathers and goes forward again.
9. Long kick inside Essendon's forward 50 where Geelong has numbers back. Duncan collects to Lang to Henderson to Kolo to Bartel (still inside 50m). Long kick to contest. Ball spills, GHS collects to Lang to GHS kick down the line, Kersten wins free. Kersten kicks long inside 50m where Hawkins marks one-on-one.

Summary Q1 - nine rebounds, four scores, four halved contests, one turnover resulting in another Essendon forward thrust.

Second Quarter:

1. Guthrie wins free at half back. Kicks wide to Blicavs. Kicks back to ? Kick to half forward where PD drops mark, gathers, kicks scrubber on left foot inside 50m. Essendon clears but pinged for HTB on wing.
2. Essendon kicks long inside 50m from centre bounce. Ball spills to Cowan to Guthrie, long kick to Cockatoo who spills mark over boundary at Essendon half forward.
3. Ball in dispute at Ess half forward. Hawkins wins it, handballs to GHS who has kick smothered, Hawkins gathers who handballs to Guthrie who puts on a burst and runs inside 50m to goal.
4. Ball in dispute inside Essendon's 50m. Lonergan gathers to Henderson to Thurlow to Bartel (?) kicks long under pressure to contest, ball spills to Blicavs, to Cockatoo who streams forward on 60m run to find Caddy inside 50m. Behind.
5. Ball in dispute at half back. Gregson gathers to Blicavs to GHS to Ruggles to Kolo to Ruggles to Enright to Murdoch to Cowan who turns it over at half forward.
6. Ess kicks long inside 50m where Blicavs marks and is paid 50m. From half back he kicks long to half forward where McCarthy gathers and is unfairly pinged HTB.
7. Murdoch takes intercept mark at half back, handball to Guthrie who finds Caddy inside 50m who goals.
8. Lonergan gathers on HBF, switches to Ruggles, to Motlop to GHS, to Duncan who kicks to half forward where Murdoch is tackled for a ball up.
9. Ball kicked long inside 50m where Taylor marks. Hands to Kolo to PD, to Guthrie, to PD to Kolo to Taylor (still in D50). To Kolo, to Lang, to Thurlow, to Hendo to Thurlow long down the line for boundary throw in.
10. Henderson collects on half back, hands to Guthrie to Taylor to Lang to Kolo, ball spoiled over line on wing.

Summary: ten rebounds, three scores, seven halved contests. Zero repeat Essendon entries.

What I took from it:

• Albeit against poor opposition, we did it very easily. Out of 19 attempts in the first half we scored seven times from rebound and only once did Essendon turn it over and go back into attack again.
• The back six were only a small part of the way we moved the ball. Look at the bolded names. Guthrie, PD and Caddy were prolific in getting back and moving the ball out of defence.
• We used kicking a lot more than I can remember in previous years. We were happy to move it relatively slowly but maintaining possession by finding targets by foot. Often we switched back and forth across the ground by foot before we attempted to drive forward, again with our midfielders playing the key part there.
• I know I am in the minority but my view is the personnel issue is overstated. I'm more concerned with how the gameplan works and on my second viewing my original impression was confirmed, at least for the first half, we moved the ball out of defence very effectively.

 

[Bobby_]

for Murdoch to be even considered a defender, he'd need to know how to actually play on someone which is something he's never done in his career so far. It's great being really, really, really fast but it is another thing to know how to use your body in one-on-one contests and then use good skills to dispose of the ball. All key factors to why Murdoch is not a defender.
It was why Varcoe struggled as a defender.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

What I took from it:

• Albeit against poor opposition, we did it very easily. Out of 19 attempts in the first half we scored seven times from rebound and only once did Essendon turn it over and go back into attack again.
• The back six were only a small part of the way we moved the ball. Look at the bolded names. Guthrie, PD and Caddy were prolific in getting back and moving the ball out of defence.
• We used kicking a lot more than I can remember in previous years. We were happy to move it relatively slowly but maintaining possession by finding targets by foot. Often we switched back and forth across the ground by foot before we attempted to drive forward, again with our midfielders playing the key part there.
• I know I am in the minority but my view is the personnel issue is overstated. I'm more concerned with how the gameplan works and on my second viewing my original impression was confirmed, at least for the first half, we moved the ball out of defence very effectively.

Yes, we moved the ball more freely which left me more content than the previous week. thurlow will be missed as he's one who rarely misses a target.

I know you're against a Guthrie move down back but he must simply play there now. Midfielder are a dime a dozen, running defenders with good foot skills simply aren't.

We can cover the loss of Guthrie in the middle, we don't have that luxury down back.

 

[catempire]

Yes, we moved the ball more freely which left me more content than the previous week. thurlow will be missed as he's one who rarely misses a target.

I know you're against a Guthrie move down back but he must simply play there now. Midfielder are a dime a dozen, running defenders with good foot skills simply aren't.

We can cover the loss of Guthrie in the middle, we don't have that luxury down back.

Nakia, something that stood out was just how often Guthrie got back inside D50 to be a link in the chain, even though he was playing as a mid. On that basis I really can't see the imperative.

 

[iameviljez]

The first thing that comes to mind is that I prefer we don't totally focus on the present when making the choice. That means no playing our best prospects out of their primary position for a year - and what that means for me is that Guthrie and Menzel stay exactly where they are.

I quite like the idea of Murdoch at half-back. Good closing speed, decent kick coming out of half-back, and above all he's tall enough not to get outmarked. The other advantage is that in having to follow someone, he shouldn't be drifting out of games as before - his Achilles heel. Lang has been floated as an idea by some on this board, but I can't see it working well - he's not strong enough yet, or quite good enough overhead.

I still don't mind Bartel at half-back. His mistakes stick in the memory because he has such a storied history as a Brownlow winner, but he's still a damn good kick overall and competitive one-on-one.

 

[you pick one]

I think it will be Guthrie and Murdoch off the HBF's leaving Bartel and GHS to cover Gutheries lose in the guts at least short term until we see the Selwoods back and then re access.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

Nakia, something that stood out was just how often Guthrie got back inside D50 to be a link in the chain, even though he was playing as a mid. On that basis I really can't see the imperative.

I actually thought Guthrie was playing down back for the majority so I guess we see what we want to see.

 

[catempire]

I actually thought Guthrie was playing down back for the majority so I guess we see what we want to see.

Well, you do.

 

[Lana]

Cowan played the role last year in the VFL and for the most part did a good job. But would want to have a big NAB3 if he is selected as his form so far doesn't merit selection for round 1. I expect to see a lot of people complaining about Bartel playing in defense even though he'll still average his 20+ disposal a match in the role.

I don't want to see Lang down back, the sooner he's in the midfield the better.

 

[Biggy_Boy]

Cowan played the role last year in the VFL and for the most part did a good job. But would want to have a big NAB3 if he is selected as his form so far doesn't merit selection for round 1. I expect to see a lot of people complaining about Bartel playing in defense even though he'll still average his 20+ disposal a match in the role.

I don't want to see Lang down back, the sooner he's in the midfield the better.

And his five clangers coming out of the back half.

 

[_Game_]

For mine Menzel is way too much of a natural forward. Has a lovely long kick, strong mark and quite a few tricks. As much as others wish it wasn't the case, I think it has to be Guth.

 

[Frappe]

Pretty sure Menzel was trialled at HB in 2011. Pretty early in his career, however, he wasn't a natural defender.

 

[Frappe]

Wonder if they will leave the back 6 as is, but the emphasis will be on the midfield to be pushing back like they did yesterday.

 

[Willo_]

If this discussion was being had in 12 months time, hopefully one Jordan Cunino would be ripe to step up.... but as it is I think the Bob Murphy clone is still far too raw

Maybe mid way through the season he may be pushing hard for that crack at the spot though?

 

[Vdubs]

If yesterday was indeed the shocker we anticipate,
Means we can't pension off Mackie, Boris or Bartel as early this year as some thought may happen.
For next year, I hope Thurlow makes a full recovery.
Guthrie to me is a no-brainer at HB anyway.
Murdoch I like, but not at HB.
Cowan- not a lot to like there, yet.
It's a bugger as Thurlow was our most Hawthorn-like player in that area- great kick, poise, good mark.

 

[Turbocat]

My issue with Menzel down back is only Id prefer to play players in the area of where the can help us the greatest. My estimate is he is probably more dangerous up forward. After deciding to go for a non SJ forwardline..we need him up forward imo. Mackie will come in and how it balances with all the talls is the issue to my mind.
A fit Bews may get another shot but he must improve
Another game for Ruggles. Did little but did little wrong.
If he was fit and pushing for a game , the player who would be an interesting add would be Cunico. Would add run and pace.
Id say Cowan would appeal more to me a bit further from goal. Getting sucked to close to goal is not ideal to use his run.
Luxford has missed a chance to play , can he come in and someone in the mid group place more permanently down there.

I still think we are running Midfield Lite atm. Our best setup will have both Selwoods. When Joel comes back in , our defence will get a resting Guthrie although catempire makes a good case that our mids are basically getting back to help out anyway.

 

[Cursed Cat]

Pretty sure Menzel was trialled at HB in 2011. Pretty early in his career, however, he wasn't a natural defender.

You're partially right - he was definitely trialled at HB in 2011, and definitely looked more comfortable as a forward.
But he originally came to notice by Geelong recruiters after playing at Half-back for South Australia during the 2009 National Champs .. so he's got some idea, albeit at a lower level ...

Ultimately though I think Menzel is of too much value as a forward to be sending him back at this stage.

 

[Vdubs]

You're partially right - he was definitely trialled at HB in 2011, and definitely looked more comfortable as a forward.
But he originally came to notice by Geelong recruiters after playing at Half-back for South Australia during the 2009 National Champs .. so he's got some idea, albeit at a lower level ...

Feels weird pencilling Menzel in anywhere, let alone replacing Thurlow with a suspected ACL.

 

[Cursed Cat]

Feels weird pencilling Menzel in anywhere, let alone replacing Thurlow with a suspected ACL.

I still hold my breath whenever I see him approach a contest or fly for a grab, and I reckon that will be the case for the rest of his career - equally, I feel a surge of triumph on his behalf whenever he wins possession or takes a grab ..

 

[Vdubs]

Wonder if they will leave the back 6 as is, but the emphasis will be on the midfield to be pushing back like they did yesterday.

As it is?
Without Thurlow, would hate to see Bartel there.

 

[SpryCorpse]

I actually thought Guthrie was playing down back for the majority so I guess we see what we want to see.

He was definitely spending a lot of time in defense. So you weren't imagining it.

For me, Bews is getting way more bad reviews than was warranted in my view - I just watched the Collingwood game today and he was okay.
He made fewer errors from what I could see in that game than the likes of Cowan and Kolodjashnij.
If it was my decision I'd be persisting with Bews - yes, he needs to learn some more tricks but hopefully he will. He's quick and strong and uses the ball well enough when he has it. If Thurlow is out then there aren't that many options.

Ruggles seemed a little impressive from what I saw.

It crossed my mind if the likes of Lang or Gregson would be capable of minding an opposition small forward. I doubt our forward line is going to be able to fit both of them in with McCarthy. So maybe one of that trio could be trialled down back?

 

[crocsta]

Cockatoo... Just do it! He would learn so much in the process

 

[Cronin]

Menzel is too valuable forward of centre

 

[Cursed Cat]

He was definitely spending a lot of time in defense. So you weren't imagining it.

For me, Bews is getting way more bad reviews than was warranted in my view - I just watched the Collingwood game today and he was okay.
He made fewer errors from what I could see in that game than the likes of Cowan and Kolodjashnij.
If it was my decision I'd be persisting with Bews - yes, he needs to learn some more tricks but hopefully he will. He's quick and strong and uses the ball well enough when he has it. If Thurlow is out then there aren't that many options.

Ruggles seemed a little impressive from what I saw.

It crossed my mind if the likes of Lang or Gregson would be capable of minding an opposition small forward. I doubt our forward line is going to be able to fit both of them in with McCarthy. So maybe one of that trio could be trialled down back?

I was disappointed with Bews' effort against Collingwood, but equally I reckon Swan would be a very tough match-up for any small defender, and if Buckley keeps him there for the season he could easily rack up well in excess of 30 goals..

I liked Ruggles game yesterday, but he was playing against pretty soft opposition - would like to see him in action again next week.