OUT: Dawes IN: Paine

[DaVe86]

i agree with the arguments about not putting Cloke in the ruck. Big risk in my opinion. But those suggesting Paine are totally off the mark. You would put Goldsack before Paine...both about same height and weight but at least Goldy has a few pre-seasons into this body.

Ultimately, it is going to be up to Jolly to ruck 85% + on Saturday night. THe other 15% we may as well not set a ruckman and just use a 3rd man up. An alarming move I reckon considering Jolly is just about our most important player come finals series because we'll need a ruckman and he is all we have.

 

[Pennypacker]

I'd much rather Paine get killed in the ruck than having our thoroughbred potentially break down by going in there.

If I see Travis Cloke in the ruck on Sat night, I don't mind F50 ruck work but not around the ground or centre square stuff, it will crystalise my thoughts that the coaching staff will have no idea.

Normally I would agree with you that risking your prime asset in the ruck is completely rediculous but his demenour over the last couple of months indicates he has decided to leave the club so if he does ruck it will be Bucks way of saying "we're sick of your half assed efforts and sulking and if you're not prepared to put your body on line for the team as a CHF then you will have no choice in the ruck".

 

[Koki Freelander]

I would have thought our next 'biggest' player (weigth x height) was Nathan Brown.
Am I crazy or didn't Tarrant take one ruck contest last week?

 

[DaVe86]

Normally I would agree with you that risking your prime asset in the ruck is completely rediculous but his demenour over the last couple of months indicates he has decided to leave the club so if he does ruck it will be Bucks way of saying "we're sick of your half assed efforts and sulking and if you're not prepared to put your body on line for the team as a CHF then you will have no choice in the ruck".

agree with this. Prime asset or not, Cloke is out of nick and if he is going to sit up forward getting cold then it is better he gets his hands dirty and throws his weight around.

Whether he is committed to the club or not beyond this year, it doesn't mean he shouldn't be giving his all right now for the cause. Your prime asset is worthless if he isn't getting the ball delivered to him.

 

[Koki Freelander]

IMO dropping Dawes makes no sense.

One week before the finals and we decide to play only one ruckmen in Jolly against two monsters. It's Jols first game back from injury and his gonna get smashed and jumped into all night. Even more puzzling considering we have a final to play the week after. He'll find it difficult to back it up especially with all the niggles his had this year.

We have no back up ruckmen in case ( fingers crossed it doesn't happen ) Jolly gets injured in the first quarter. Who's gonna play in the center square then??? IMO this was a dumb selection but that's just my opinion.

I tend to agree - whats the end game here? Is Paine simply ahead of Dawes now? No VFL? Are we to read this as Dawes is basically injury back up now?
Dawes deserved to be dropped. I am fascinated to see the restructure now (Paine deserved to be picked .... weeks ago)

 

[jmac70]

Normally I would agree with you that risking your prime asset in the ruck is completely rediculous but his demenour over the last couple of months indicates he has decided to leave the club so if he does ruck it will be Bucks way of saying "we're sick of your half assed efforts and sulking and if you're not prepared to put your body on line for the team as a CHF then you will have no choice in the ruck".

I don't understand this view that he has some sort of attitude problem. He looks to be trying pretty hard to me. Is it really his demeanour or are you allowing your frustration at his form and contract issues to cloud your judgement? Can you give an example that supports an issue with attitude?

 

[Pennypacker]

I don't understand this view that he has some sort of attitude problem. He looks to be trying pretty hard to me. Is it really his demeanour or are you allowing your frustration at his form and contract issues to cloud your judgement? Can you give an example that supports an issue with attitude?

I have been watching him closely at games and have seen things that could be perceived as a lack of passion/focus. If I'm wrong then I apologise but it's the impression I get and I guess we'll find out at the end of our finals campaign when he makes his decision to stay or go. But here are a few signs that havent sat well with me:

• The only team mates I see him put much time into at training and on game day are Toovey, Wood & Goldsack. Never see him mingle with the other players like the other players do.
• I was at the players auction and he sat in the corner with Goldsack the whole day while all the other players were sitting together.
• At the Kangaroos game I noticed him standing off on his own outside the group huddle at the breaks which was very odd.
• Have noticed a few selfish aspects creep into his game lately like doing 'u-turns' and kicking over his shoulder even when his team mates are in the clear and screaming for it. This has been pointed out on numerous football programs so its not just me noticing.
• Have you noticed he rarely gets embraced after kicking a goal by his team mates (see Sydney game)

 

[MarkT2]

Hopefully Cloke is used in the ruck.

Dawes out and Cloke to ruck is what I said I wanted in the thread before last weeks selection - and a few times before that. It just seems too late now. At least if it was done earlier Dawes could find some form. I like Paine as a player but this smells a lot like 2003. When Cloke is in the ruck we have a kid as our only marking forward. Jolly needs to rest predominantly on the bench. We can't have him being part of the forward pressure required.

If Tarrant can be used forward be would at least cover for Dawes' recent output but does that leave us short down back? Maxwell might have to play tall.

The biggest problem is this dice roll is a final bet. If Paine isn't up to it yet Dawes can't really come back in because he won't have had any chance to gain any confience or form.

It seems to me we held our nerve until it got to nervy and we folded.

As I said, I like Paine as a prospect. I would love to see him have a really good game and make an impact in the finals. I just don't think he'll be ready for a year or two.

 

[MarkT2]

I don't understand this view that he has some sort of attitude problem. He looks to be trying pretty hard to me. Is it really his demeanour or are you allowing your frustration at his form and contract issues to cloud your judgement? Can you give an example that supports an issue with attitude?

Personally I am unsure about where Cloke's head is but when was the last time he crashed a pack to take mark? He did it regularly last year. He probably won the PF for us doing it in the last Q.

 

[joefootylover]

Thing is, this could be a freaking master-stroke if it comes off. It's not like Cloke is a skinny kid ala a Ben or Sam Ried, or a young Josh Fraser, he is a monster, and he has been very very durable throughout his career. He is out of form, maybe he actually put his hand up and asked for the gig, maybe he will be really GOOD at it! Roughead has proven very good at it, and Cloke would be bigger, stronger and have a better injury history than Roughead, so why not?

Paine deep FF, with Jolly and Cloke rotating, Krak, Didz and Faz crumbing and giving us inside 50's, Goldsack tagging thier best tall rebounding defender and aiming for a minimum of 5 tackles inside the 50, seems like it could be exciting!

 

[DaVe86]

Hopefully Cloke is used in the ruck.

Dawes out and Cloke to ruck is what I said I wanted in the thread before last weeks selection - and a few times before that. It just seems too late now. At least if it was done earlier Dawes could find some form. I like Paine as a player but this smells a lot like 2003. When Cloke is in the ruck we have a kid as our only marking forward. Jolly needs to rest predominantly on the bench. We can't have him being part of the forward pressure required.

If Tarrant can be used forward be would at least cover for Dawes' recent output but does that leave us short down back? Maxwell might have to play tall.

The biggest problem is this dice roll is a final bet. If Paine isn't up to it yet Dawes can't really come back in because he won't have had any chance to gain any confience or form.

It seems to me we held our nerve until it got to nervy and we folded.

As I said, I like Paine as a prospect. I would love to see him have a really good game and make an impact in the finals. I just don't think he'll be ready for a year or two.

I'd say Taz will definitely go forward at times. With Gumbleton out their tall forwards are Crameri (who has bad shoulder problems) and Hurley. The problem is when Bellchambers and Hille rest forward. It does leave us short then. Maxwell may need to do the job on Crameri in that circumstance.

 

[jmac70]

I have been watching him closely at games and have seen things that could be perceived as a lack of passion/focus. If I'm wrong then I apologise but it's the impression I get and I guess we'll find out at the end of our finals campaign when he makes his decision to stay or go. But here are a few signs that havent sat well with me:

• The only team mates I see him put much time into at training and on game day are Toovey, Wood & Goldsack. Never see him mingle with the other players like the other players do.
• I was at the players auction and he sat in the corner with Goldsack the whole day while all the other players were sitting together.
• At the Kangaroos game I noticed him standing off on his own outside the group huddle at the breaks which was very odd.
• Have noticed a few selfish aspects creep into his game lately like doing 'u-turns' and kicking over his shoulder even when his team mates are in the clear and screaming for it. This has been pointed out on numerous football programs so its not just me noticing.
• Have you noticed he rarely gets embraced after kicking a goal by his team mates (see Sydney game)

You may be right I don't know. I just think we should be careful not to read too much into this sort of thing. He is still a Collingwood man and should be treated with respect. If he goes to Carlton then it's open season.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Pennypacker mounts a persuasive case. In the early days Cloke and Thomas seemed quite close, but Cloke does seem to be in the company of much the same people. At the airport heading interstate, he was hanging around with the same 3 people. I guess my question would be, do Toovey, Goldsack and Wood seek out other players, or is Cloke the only member of this group to not mingle with other team mates as claimed? If the three guys accept that Cloke wants to leave and others don't, why do they feel this way? Toovey shopped himself around last year, Wood is close to gone and Goldsack is almost the last player signed.

Which makes me recall Cloke's TFS statement that 'I have some good mates at Carlton'. Maybe he has more than 3 mates at Carlton. I don't think a definite conclusion can be made from the available evidence, but the theory is not totally absurd.

 

[Dundalis]

Hopefully Cloke is used in the ruck.

Dawes out and Cloke to ruck is what I said I wanted in the thread before last weeks selection - and a few times before that. It just seems too late now. At least if it was done earlier Dawes could find some form. I like Paine as a player but this smells a lot like 2003. When Cloke is in the ruck we have a kid as our only marking forward. Jolly needs to rest predominantly on the bench. We can't have him being part of the forward pressure required.

If Tarrant can be used forward be would at least cover for Dawes' recent output but does that leave us short down back? Maxwell might have to play tall.

The biggest problem is this dice roll is a final bet. If Paine isn't up to it yet Dawes can't really come back in because he won't have had any chance to gain any confience or form.

It seems to me we held our nerve until it got to nervy and we folded.

As I said, I like Paine as a prospect. I would love to see him have a really good game and make an impact in the finals. I just don't think he'll be ready for a year or two.

Does the fact that Dawes isn't up to it, and Paine would need to do very little to be better than Dawes has been come into the equation? There is in fact very little risk here. You don't just keep playing a player that is a detriment to the team, providing little to no output.

As an opposition coach I would love seeing Dawes in the side because he has become so easy to plan for.

 

[loki04]

Does the fact that Dawes isn't up to it, and Paine would need to do very little to be better than Dawes has been come into the equation? There is in fact very little risk here. You don't just keep playing a player that is a detriment to the team, providing little to no output.

As an opposition coach I would love seeing Dawes in the side because he has become so easy to plan for.

To add to your very good post, Travis looks like he has also been worked out I can't remember the last time he won a 1v1 vs a half decent opponent.

 

[PieNSauce]

I'm not so sure about some of the comments here about Dawes being dropped. Firstly, it is a double edged sword. It gives Dawes the wake up call he has needed for weeks and although I'm disappointed that it didn't happen sooner, I have to say better late than never. The other edge of the sword is the non-too-subtle message it sends to Cloke. You can and you will be dropped if you don't deliver no matter what the circumstances. So I believe that the hope is that Dawes will set himself to come back hard and my hope is that Cloke will be determined not to cop the same fate.

In the meanwhile, we have the vexed question of the second ruck role and some, like myself have suggested Cloke while others think that's too big a risk. Personally, I see Cloke in the 2nd ruck role as a reasonably good option. Teams have worked out how to shut Cloke down some time ago now and his former forward line dominance is just not there anymore. Why not make them change their thinking onto something they have never seen and have no plan for? Jolly, Taz and Paine supported by Krak and Dids will give them some lack of sleep I would have thought and frankly, Cloke can be a contesting beast so why not in the ruck? It's not as if it would be for more than about 20% of game time and if it works it adds a whole new dimension and an air of unpredictability to the side. Personally, I'd love to see it but I recognise it probably won't happen.

 

[Fruit]

I'm not so sure about some of the comments here about Dawes being dropped. Firstly, it is a double edged sword. It gives Dawes the wake up call he has needed for weeks and although I'm disappointed that it didn't happen sooner, I have to say better late than never. The other edge of the sword is the non-too-subtle message it sends to Cloke. You can and you will be dropped if you don't deliver no matter what the circumstances. So I believe that the hope is that Dawes will set himself to come back hard and my hope is that Cloke will be determined not to cop the same fate.

In the meanwhile, we have the vexed question of the second ruck role and some, like myself have suggested Cloke while others think that's too big a risk. Personally, I see Cloke in the 2nd ruck role as a reasonably good option. Teams have worked out how to shut Cloke down some time ago now and his former forward line dominance is just not there anymore. Why not make them change their thinking onto something they have never seen and have no plan for? Jolly, Taz and Paine supported by Krak and Dids will give them some lack of sleep I would have thought and frankly, Cloke can be a contesting beast so why not in the ruck? It's not as if it would be for more than about 20% of game time and if it works it adds a whole new dimension and an air of unpredictability to the side. Personally, I'd love to see it but I recognise it probably won't happen.

I agree and while Dawes can't go and play VFL at least by resting he can have a week where his confidence doesn't get shot even further due to a poor game and if he earns a recall I bet he will be a different player particularly with his spot being at stake for finals.
Could it be possible that we play Reid, Taz and Maxwell as tall back options with Cloke, Paine & Goldsack forward with Nathan Brown relieving Jolly from the bench? That seems like an even mix at each end.

 

[jonbe54]

Like a few other posters I like the thought of pushing Cloke into the ruck for a few minutes a quarter.

Either he's gone and just playing out the games - in which case make the @*%&#% work for it

OR

He's just in a total funk because of the negotiations - in which case getting around the ground and away from the 3 on 1's he's been getting will do him good.

WIN / WIN as far as I'm concerned

 

[jathanas]

This change in plans with Dawes out is a real curve ball. we'll all be the wiser after tonight's game. It could fizz, no doubt. The flip side is that this could be the move to ignite the side.

I'd argue that our set-up needed a change and that left as it was would have seen us out of the finals in straight sets.

Playing it safe with Jolly is not the way to go. There are times in life when you have to roll the dice. Trav to ruck in the forward line, Reid or Brown in defense.

 

[eddiebankbalance]

This change in plans with Dawes out is a real curve ball. we'll all be the wiser after tonight's game. It could fizz, no doubt. The flip side is that this could be the move to ignite the side.

A curve ball is what we need against teams like, HAWTHORN.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Normally I would agree with you that risking your prime asset in the ruck is completely rediculous but his demenour over the last couple of months indicates he has decided to leave the club so if he does ruck it will be Bucks way of saying "we're sick of your half assed efforts and sulking and if you're not prepared to put your body on line for the team as a CHF then you will have no choice in the ruck".

What demeanor?
How come I have missed this?

Even if his demeanor was poor, how do you know what it indicates, do you have a set of tarot cards?

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Pennypacker mounts a persuasive case. In the early days Cloke and Thomas seemed quite close, but Cloke does seem to be in the company of much the same people. At the airport heading interstate, he was hanging around with the same 3 people. I guess my question would be, do Toovey, Goldsack and Wood seek out other players, or is Cloke the only member of this group to not mingle with other team mates as claimed? If the three guys accept that Cloke wants to leave and others don't, why do they feel this way? Toovey shopped himself around last year, Wood is close to gone and Goldsack is almost the last player signed.

Which makes me recall Cloke's TFS statement that 'I have some good mates at Carlton'. Maybe he has more than 3 mates at Carlton. I don't think a definite conclusion can be made from the available evidence, but the theory is not totally absurd.

He also said 5 times on TFS he wants to stay at Collingwood
If you are going to run through his commentary like a D9 bulldozer you really need to look at all of what he said

 

[eddiebankbalance]

Dawes OUT and Cloke back to his best? HTF/WTF ...

 

[jimmy35]

Thank God they didn't put Clokey in the ruck. Shame his demeanor was so shit though and his teammates didn't get around him.

 

[ash84]

Anyone suggesting Cloke goes into the Ruck is an absolute idiot.