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Pies rucks

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larrikan

larrikan

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Firstly, MM was never a big wrap for rucks. We desperately needed a ruck since the 02/03 GFs. It took years to admit it and get Jolly. We traded a first round draft pick for Woods - Brisbanes third string ruckman at the time. None of our draft ruckman like Richards have gone on to develop at other clubs.

Geelong a churning ruckman out of some friggin machine down there. Under salary cap pressure the ruckman they gave up was Mumford FFS and still they were left with talent.

Can we please go after Geelongs Ruck coach or find out what they do that we don't.

We pride ourselves on being the best at everything else.

There is a common misconception that ruckman are irrelevant but history shows they contribute hugely in Grand Finals.

I believe that Ceglar and Witts are our hopes but they are youngsters and need good coaching.

We don't have Brown now to pinch hit in the ruck like Rocca used to do.

Will Jolly and Wood play in the same side? Will Jolly, Wood, Dawes, Cloke and Keefe play in the same side?

Where do we stand?

AND PLEASE DON'T MAKE THIS A JOLLY AND WOOD BASHING THREAD JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN. OFFER SOME CONSTRUCTIVE IDEAS.
 
Agree we need a Good Ruck Coach as we have 2 Potential High Level AFL Ruckman in Ceglar and Witts but our Current Coach has Produced Nothing for us in the Ruck
 
larrikan said:
Firstly, MM was never a big wrap for rucks. We desperately needed a ruck since the 02/03 GFs. It took years to admit it and get Jolly. We traded a first round draft pick for Woods - Brisbanes third string ruckman at the time. None of our draft ruckman like Richards have gone on to develop at other clubs.

Geelong a churning ruckman out of some friggin machine down there. Under salary cap pressure the ruckman they gave up was Mumford FFS and still they were left with talent.

Can we please go after Geelongs Ruck coach or find out what they do that we don't.

We pride ourselves on being the best at everything else.

There is a common misconception that ruckman are irrelevant but history shows they contribute hugely in Grand Finals.

I believe that Ceglar and Witts are our hopes but they are youngsters and need good coaching.

We don't have Brown now to pinch hit in the ruck like Rocca used to do.

Will Jolly and Wood play in the same side? Will Jolly, Wood, Dawes, Cloke and Keefe play in the same side?

Where do we stand?

AND PLEASE DON'T MAKE THIS A JOLLY AND WOOD BASHING THREAD JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN. OFFER SOME CONSTRUCTIVE IDEAS.
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It is an important issue you raise.

Jolly may be coming to the end of his career a lot quicker than we had hoped due to injury. That leaves us with Wood. To be talking about Witts and Ceglar at this stage is delusional. They are years away from being ready to ruck in a GF, that's even assuming they are good enough to make it.

I am not a Wood fan. I never rate ruckmen who lack physical presence. And we (Jolly aside) just seem to keep recruiting them. McKee, Fraser, Fanning, Richards. It just makes heartbreaking reading. It's not that Geelong have such great ruck coaching compared to us, they simply recruit the right type of player to develop.

I am not alone in my assessment of Wood either. I met a guy this year who did forward scouting for Collingwood for 7 years. He's retired now but keeps in touch with Derek Hine and a lot of the inner sanctum. His words to me was that Wood was a 'bust'. The fact that he was not played in front of a player who would of missed 3 weeks in the regular season indicates that the club have no faith in him.

Hawthorn showed in 2008, that ruckmen don't need to be stars, they just need physical presence.

Therefore, unless Jolly can stand up for the full season next year, it could be one of our major problems. Again. Unless we find that strong bodied ruckman with physical presence out there somewhere.
 
TradeDraft said:
Agree we need a Good Ruck Coach as we have 2 Potential High Level AFL Ruckman in Ceglar and Witts but our Current Coach has Produced Nothing for us in the Ruck
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I know you will address this in another thread TD but who are the potential recruits we could target - current and draft - that are within our reach?
 

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I think we're over-reacting based upon Jolly being injured at the wrong time of year. Very few clubs have an adequate second ruck on their list; look at Hawthorn for instance.

I'm not a fan of Wood, but I'd like to see Witts given some senior game time in 2012 and see how quickly he can make up ground on our back-up ruckman. He has the fluency of movement that you don't often see in a 200cm+ guy.

The other thing that concerns me slightly is that blokes coming through the under 18's, who look for all the world to be excellent prospects, don't appear to interest us. Jordan Roughead and Nathan Vardy would be great to have on our list right now.
 
We've either been extremely unlucky with the ruckmen we've picked or we have poor ruck development. It's probably a mixture of both but I think one place we need to look into is our rucking coaches and development system. That Jolly said he had to ring his coach from Sydney last year rings alarm bells.

And The Royal Sampler is right, great ruckmen are very hard to come across.
 
Sorry to intrude guys and I'll probably get hung for this..

What about Mark Blake from us? You would get a ready made ruckman next year for next to nothing and besides breaking his finger in the VFL this year he has been very durable for Geelong.

He is a tap and nothing more but could be all you need to get it to ball,swan and pendles first...

iirc he towled up Jolly in our first game last year...and Mummy

won't get a game with Cats again even if Otto retires as we have West, and Simpson and Vardy coming through

Would either be the back up for Jolly or #1 and I think he's 26 or 27 yr old...
 
Alkanphel said:
Sorry to intrude guys and I'll probably get hung for this..

What about Mark Blake from us? You would get a ready made ruckman next year for next to nothing and besides breaking his finger in the VFL this year he has been very durable for Geelong.

He is a tap and nothing more but could be all you need to get it to ball,swan and pendles first...

iirc he towled up Jolly in our first game last year...and Mummy

won't get a game with Cats again even if Otto retires as we have West, and Simpson and Vardy coming through

Would either be the back up for Jolly or #1 and I think he's 26 or 27 yr old...
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Wood is a better player than Blake and he's already on our list. I think Blakes only chance of playing AFL again is if GWS pick him up.
 
Agree with Ed. Haven't heard anything about us replacing our Ruck coaches or Ruck development staff but surprised we haven't yet considering we haven't developed a decent Ruck in ages.
 
A replacement for Brown's role is much more important at this stage. We still have Jolly and at least a year to see how Wood, Witts and Ceglar develop. It's no use getting Blake if he isn't going to get a game. We are going to have to give up a fair bit for him I imagine, as ruckmen are highly sought after.

If we can find this years David Hale (as much as I don't rate him) it will be great.

As far as development goes, I have no idea what we're doing on that front. It's something that the club have historically been secretive about.
 
The Royal Sampler said:
The other thing that concerns me slightly is that blokes coming through the under 18's, who look for all the world to be excellent prospects, don't appear to interest us. Jordan Roughead and Nathan Vardy would be great to have on our list right now.
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Hey when Vardy was in the Draft I wanted us to Pick him,

Did not select Roughead as Hine Really wanted Beams
 
This thread has got me thinking on why Collingwood historically can not produce great ruckmen. Think about it, who was the last really great ruck? Len Thompson, maybe Peter Moore? Monkey was good but hardly great. Fraser? I don't think so

Wish we could be a little more like Essendon or (lately) Geelong, who always seem to have an overabundance of good rucks.

Don't have an answer but interested in thoughts
 
One thing we know is good ruckman are hard to come by and require patience. This time thing is a pain in the arse because when you think of Richards, Woods, Fanning and co., we always give them time to wait for them to develop. Clearly, we don't invest in the resources to do this. It is one area where we have part time coaches. Or, possibly we have just had coaches who don't rate ruckman.

We fell into a trap with Josh Fraser being a #1 draft pick wanting to be our #1 ruckman when essentially he was a great utility player. We also gave him "time".

It is the most maligned role at our club. We have and still are hoping Wood develops into a decent ruckman. He is 25 next year and it will be his eight season since his debut. We are invested in him because we gave up our first round pick for him when he was Brisbanes third string ruckman. There is always that concern if we let him go now , he might come good for another club.

Recently, the way we recruit is "generational". Jolly is replaced by Wood who will be replaced by Ceglar/Witts. It is so thin that if any of them don't come up we're in trouble.

Our coaches have used stop gap measures...Anthony Rocca was our second ruck in the forward line and when needed. Then we used Brown in that role. Now this board is saying get another one of these guys. Whilst our major competitors have at least two genuine ruckman.

We need a genuine development program for the big guys. We need 5 or 6 in training. We have Jolly, Wood, Keefe, Ceglar and Witts. There are four "if we give them time perhaps they will be good" in that lot. Wood (in his eighth season) does not appear to be a dominant ruckman who will give opposition headaches. He doesn't exactly take the VFL apart. Jolly uninjured has 2 or 3 seasons left.

Hamish McIntosh? another draftee? the best ruck coach available so Jols doesn't have to ring Sydney?

Our premiership window is now! Lets give our midfielders first use of the ball without question and have a strong backup for an injury.
 

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Look at what Max Hudgton did with Ben Reid & Nathan Brown from a defensive viewpoint.

Then look at Darren Flanagin, he was a mediocre ruckman and has been entrusted with coaching our rucks. Doesn't sit well. Steve Taubet (sp) from Sydney is the best in the business, get him to work with Witts, who will be a freak.
 
Step one; Get a premiership ruckman to the club as the rucks coach (Steven King comes to mind).

Step two; Develop Witts, Ceglar and Keefe as modern day, versatile rucks with the assistance of the ruck coach.

Step three; Rotate/rest Jolly more in 2012. In round 24 of 2011, Jolly played, WHY?:confused: If the game is unimportant, or if we are playing a bottom 6 team, do not play Jolly.

Step four; Dominate and win the next 3 flags.:p

Ok, so step 4 went a bit far, but can anyone even name our current ruck coach, I know we used to have Darren Flanagan from Geelong, but who is it now?:confused:
 
I think Mick has showed that he doesnt like big ruckmen. He showed that at the Eagles and it's a similar with the Pies..

You do have to be a little worried about Jolly and his four year contract. I'm not sure that his durability is going to be so durable next year...

I think the new coach will put a different emphasis on rucks..... so be patient and watch the Bucks..
 
kevind said:
It is an important issue you raise.

Jolly may be coming to the end of his career a lot quicker than we had hoped due to injury. That leaves us with Wood. To be talking about Witts and Ceglar at this stage is delusional. They are years away from being ready to ruck in a GF, that's even assuming they are good enough to make it.
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Don't shoot me for asking, but is this true?

I mean, Nic Nat played in the ruck in his first year. Yeah, the guy was almost a gun from the get go, but do you think that we should get some AFL game time into these guys next year? Maybe they'll take to it?

You say they're years away. Are we talking 2014, 2015? That's a long time.

Fasolo got game time in his first year.
 

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You know what would be nice to go along with a good ruck coach? A good strength coach who can tailor a program for out ruck stocks. Fraser was a twig, never put on any significant size in all his time. Wood is similar. Would hate to see the younger kids not get any bigger.
 
The only ruckmen i'd be looking at is vardy from geelong, the guy with the huge hair fro freo (clarke), or hamish mcintosh.

these are the type of youngish ruckmen we need. someone who has shown something.

but guys don't forget.. witts is a monster.
 
The Royal Sampler said:
I think we're over-reacting based upon Jolly being injured at the wrong time of year. Very few clubs have an adequate second ruck on their list; look at Hawthorn for instance.

I'm not a fan of Wood, but I'd like to see Witts given some senior game time in 2012 and see how quickly he can make up ground on our back-up ruckman. He has the fluency of movement that you don't often see in a 200cm+ guy.

The other thing that concerns me slightly is that blokes coming through the under 18's, who look for all the world to be excellent prospects, don't appear to interest us. Jordan Roughead and Nathan Vardy would be great to have on our list right now.
Click to expand...

Spoke with Bucks on Sat night at the Grand Final dinner and Witts is very much on Bucks' radar. Witts will get senior game time next year but I would imagine predominately as a forward and maybe pinch-hit in the ruck while he continues to develop.

While young, he has a far more physically mature body than 90% of ruckman at the same age. The reason he kicked goals (and was in our best players) in the games he played in the VFL is because he is just so damn tall. This is the same reason he will be a defensive nightmare in the AFL too. He is actually a fairly smart football player too timing his leads well and postioning his body in the right spots for contested marks.

Anyone who watched his final three games in the VFL will understand why there is hype around this kid.

Rnd 19 - 2 goals
Rnd 20 - 3 goals, named Pies best player in 5 pt loss
Rnd 21 - 2 goals, named in Pies best players
 
What about the American McNamara???
Played a lot in the VFL and remember Lockyer talking him up quite a bit. I know he is still learning the game but he's a 204cm/104kg monster who is quite athletic.
 

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