Opinion Player Development

[The Rusty Trombone]

Only thing i learnt from the OP is that we really suck at our later draft picks.

spot on

We've all played the game at various levels and we all know how the team reacts when the coach is playing blokes who simply aren't putting in while blokes that are in the reserves aren't getting a game . It's a bad scene and can ruin what you've built very quickly.

No body like down hill skiers and we have a few .

 

[sante]

In most of those cases these players had games here and there leading up to their breakout year.

Dea, Batch, Helbig are nowhere to be seen each and every season

 

[aislegi]

I don't want us to say hey congrats ben Lennon ... you've hardly played against men before but ... have a run around and then have him physically break down because he isn't use to the physicality of the game and then mentally start to question himself

Tend to think that the players who are going to measure up almost always go into the side and play good football from the get-go, while those who aren't up to it are the ones who are perpetually parked in the reserves. I don't think it's a question of it being difficult to determine which of the two groups the player is in. I think it's a matter of recruiting the former instead of the latter.

 

[CHIMP MAGNET]

Only thing i learnt from the OP is that we really suck at our later draft picks.

Yep. And Hodgey and Selwood are adept at trotting out the stock standard club rhetoric.

 

[avengers]

Tend to think that the players who are going to measure up almost always go into the side and play good football from the get-go, while those who aren't up to it are the ones who are perpetually parked in the reserves. I don't think it's a question of it being difficult to determine which of the two groups the player is in. I think it's a matter of recruiting the former instead of the latter.

And yet some of hawthorns best 22 didn't debut until years after! I believe the players that step up from the get go are the future stars/super stars of the game! Just because you don't play from the get go doesn't mean they're not up to it!

 

[Ralll]

Hawthorn and Geelong are in a premiership window, they cant afford to gift games to young players, and dont need to.
We started from low down, and had the same idea of gifting 50-100 games to the better kids as GC/GWS, while developing the others through the vfl.
Our problem is we have finished that period and blokes like O'Hanlon/Dea/Batch/Helbig etc. havnt come on they way we hoped, (whether thats bad recruiting/development or not who knows) and now we are still having to use the recycled players instead of these types.

 

[aislegi]

And yet some of hawthorns best 22 didn't debut until years after! I believe the players that step up from the get go are the future stars/super stars of the game! Just because you don't play from the get go doesn't mean they're not up to it!

Given that Hawthorn have been a top club for the last six or seven years, it stands to reason that it's hard to break into that side. Richmond, however, are not. The level of talent required to get a game with us is a lot lower. That's why you have to worry about those who can't.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Hopefully having our own 2nd,s side now will help with the development.

 

[_RT_]

Hawthorn and Geelong are in a premiership window, they cant afford to gift games to young players, and dont need to.
We started from low down, and had the same idea of gifting 50-100 games to the better kids as GC/GWS, while developing the others through the vfl.
Our problem is we have finished that period and blokes like O'Hanlon/Dea/Batch/Helbig etc. havnt come on they way we hoped, (whether thats bad recruiting/development or not who knows) and now we are still having to use the recycled players instead of these types.

Where do you think Geelong and Hawthorn started from? Geelong were 11th when Thompson took over and weren't to become the genuine great team that they were until his 8th season in charge. Clarkson too over Hawthorn when they were 15th a spot above us and took until his 7th season until they too became a genuinely great team too. During those years before they became the great sides that they are now, both teams had their fair share of spuds running around in the senior side while more talented kids were earning their way in the magoos.

Hardwick is a quarter of the way through his 5th season in charge and IMO is starting to realise that the moneyball players are only capable of taking us so far. What we should be seeing the rest of this year is a gradual phasing out of the the moneyball types that won't take us any further and a chance for the talented kids that we stockpiled during the compromised drafts getting a chance to shine. That is as long as those kids earn their way into the side. LIttle point in rewarding kids for mediocrity when that is what we've been trying to remove.

 

[Danog]

Hawthorn and Geelong are in a premiership window, they cant afford to gift games to young players, and dont need to.
We started from low down, and had the same idea of gifting 50-100 games to the better kids as GC/GWS, while developing the others through the vfl.
Our problem is we have finished that period and blokes like O'Hanlon/Dea/Batch/Helbig etc. havnt come on they way we hoped, (whether thats bad recruiting/development or not who knows) and now we are still having to use the recycled players instead of these types.

They still do give a lot of games to young players.

 

[cairo tiger]

lack of player development is an indictment on the coaching staff.

 

[_RT_]

lack of player development is an indictment on the coaching staff.

Up until last year our development coaching was behind the other clubs hence the FTF to allow us to go out and recruit 2-3 extra development coaches this year.

 

[CHIMP MAGNET]

Yeah and we hired blokes with no experience on the cheap and didn't replace one of our best coaches that left. I reckon the blokes they hired are on less combined than Leppa was. Scam artists.

Sent from my HTC_PN071 using Tapatalk

 

[cairo tiger]

Up until last year our development coaching was behind the other clubs hence the FTF to allow us to go out and recruit 2-3 extra development coaches this year.

look they can recruit who they want but are they the right person? that is what I am asking.
our lack of development can be directly attributed to our coaching ineffectiveness. how do we define that? in the way they bring on talented kids to
another level. we could of course go back and forth over this like you tend to do, with 25 posts, I am not into that. prefer to leave it at that.

 

[Ralll]

Where do you think Geelong and Hawthorn started from? Geelong were 11th when Thompson took over and weren't to become the genuine great team that they were until his 8th season in charge. Clarkson too over Hawthorn when they were 15th a spot above us and took until his 7th season until they too became a genuinely great team too. During those years before they became the great sides that they are now, both teams had their fair share of spuds running around in the senior side while more talented kids were earning their way in the magoos.

Hardwick is a quarter of the way through his 5th season in charge and IMO is starting to realise that the moneyball players are only capable of taking us so far. What we should be seeing the rest of this year is a gradual phasing out of the the moneyball types that won't take us any further and a chance for the talented kids that we stockpiled during the compromised drafts getting a chance to shine. That is as long as those kids earn their way into the side. LIttle point in rewarding kids for mediocrity when that is what we've been trying to remove.

Clarkson won a premiership in his 4th season.
Thompson had Geelong in the finals in his first season in charge from 11th/12th and were widely regarded to be underachieving during his first 6 years, but still managed to make the finals 3 times before the premiership window began.(which is still going 8 yrs later)

I dont think Hawthorn or Geelong purposely played "spuds" while making their younger players earn a spot, which helped them succeed.

But thats all irrelevant, my point is we are not Hawthorn/Geelong in a premiership window, and thus can afford to do such things as gift games to young players to fast track them (if their attitude is right and they're helping "culture"). Im not saying we necessarily should but we are in a different phase than them, and need a strategy to suit us.

I think Dimma knows these moneyball players are not the future but thinks none of these development players are ready, or are suited to developing in the firsts (Rance/Vickery/Conca/Ellis)...rightly or wrongly...

 

[Ralll]

They still do give a lot of games to young players.

We gifted games to fast track development of certain young players to get 50-100 games into them even though it was detrimental to our current chances.
Hawthorn give games to young players that make their current chances better.

 

[theflea]

Where do you think Geelong and Hawthorn started from? Geelong were 11th when Thompson took over and weren't to become the genuine great team that they were until his 8th season in charge. Clarkson too over Hawthorn when they were 15th a spot above us and took until his 7th season until they too became a genuinely great team too. During those years before they became the great sides that they are now, both teams had their fair share of spuds running around in the senior side while more talented kids were earning their way in the magoos.

Hardwick is a quarter of the way through his 5th season in charge and IMO is starting to realise that the moneyball players are only capable of taking us so far. What we should be seeing the rest of this year is a gradual phasing out of the the moneyball types that won't take us any further and a chance for the talented kids that we stockpiled during the compromised drafts getting a chance to shine. That is as long as those kids earn their way into the side. LIttle point in rewarding kids for mediocrity when that is what we've been trying to remove.

he stated on TF that either these mature types raise their levels again or they will get bypassed for the next generation.

 

[_RT_]

Clarkson won a premiership in his 4th season.
Thompson had Geelong in the finals in his first season in charge from 11th/12th and were widely regarded to be underachieving during his first 6 years, but still managed to make the finals 3 times before the premiership window began.(which is still going 8 yrs later)

I dont think Hawthorn or Geelong purposely played "spuds" while making their younger players earn a spot, which helped them succeed.

But thats all irrelevant, my point is we are not Hawthorn/Geelong in a premiership window, and thus can afford to do such things as gift games to young players to fast track them (if their attitude is right and they're helping "culture"). Im not saying we necessarily should but we are in a different phase than them, and need a strategy to suit us.

I think Dimma knows these moneyball players are not the future but thinks none of these development players are ready, or are suited to developing in the firsts (Rance/Vickery/Conca/Ellis)...rightly or wrongly...

Everyone believes that Clarkson/Hawthorn stole that 2008 flag and the results they achieved in the 2 years following that kind of back that up. Hawthorn only became the genuine power they are from 2011 onwards.

While I'm aware that many believe that Geelong underachieved in Thompsons early years, I believe that this wasn't the case. Rather that they overachieved based on the mixture of experienced players that were still going along. It was only once those players had all been moved on and the kids like Ablett Bartel Corey Kelly Enright Ling Johnson & co got to control their destinies that they became the team they did.

That is why I believe that right now we are going through the same sort of generational change. As I said before it seems that we're putting more heat on the older players now to step up and perform or they will quickly find themselves on the outer once the kids are right to go. Hopefully at 6.30 tonight we will see the next couple of kids get their reward for solid VFL form, while those who have coasted are moved out.

 

[RunningBounce]

Good posts and good discussion.

All I want to add is that there is no formula, and no black and white. Some players can and do go well from the day they are drafted. Some need time.

Tend to think that the players who are going to measure up almost always go into the side and play good football from the get-go, while those who aren't up to it are the ones who are perpetually parked in the reserves. I don't think it's a question of it being difficult to determine which of the two groups the player is in. I think it's a matter of recruiting the former instead of the latter.

Brandon Ellis

And yet some of hawthorns best 22 didn't debut until years after! I believe the players that step up from the get go are the future stars/super stars of the game! Just because you don't play from the get go doesn't mean they're not up to it!

Ben Griffiths

You're both right.

Geelong and Hawthorn have the luxury of being able to accommodate both types of player. We currently don't.

 

[Ralll]

Everyone believes that Clarkson/Hawthorn stole that 2008 flag and the results they achieved in the 2 years following that kind of back that up. Hawthorn only became the genuine power they are from 2011 onwards.

While I'm aware that many believe that Geelong underachieved in Thompsons early years, I believe that this wasn't the case. Rather that they overachieved based on the mixture of experienced players that were still going along. It was only once those players had all been moved on and the kids like Ablett Bartel Corey Kelly Enright Ling Johnson & co got to control their destinies that they became the team they did.

That is why I believe that right now we are going through the same sort of generational change. As I said before it seems that we're putting more heat on the older players now to step up and perform or they will quickly find themselves on the outer once the kids are right to go. Hopefully at 6.30 tonight we will see the next couple of kids get their reward for solid VFL form, while those who have coasted are moved out.

We can agree to disagree on Hawthorn/Geelong.

I hope your right and Dimma and co. have the development players ready to make the transition into our side and make it better.

 

[Googstar]

lack of player development is an indictment on the coaching staff.

We still have too many blokes who cannot do the basics and I mean the very basics. How hard is it to stand on your feet instead of going to ground all the time. You are behind in the marking contest, so maybe you should punch the ball. Our bloke has got the ball, maybe we should shepard and clear a path for him or spread from the contest and give him an option. When we have the ball, you run forward. When they have the ball, you run back, it's not rocket science.

Too many on our list make poor decisions or are not skilled enough. At what age do you get taught to handball at your team mate's feet or conversely 4 foot over their head?

 

[Tigerbob]

Yeah and we hired blokes with no experience on the cheap and didn't replace one of our best coaches that left. I reckon the blokes they hired are on less combined than Leppa was. Scam artists.

Sent from my HTC_PN071 using Tapatalk

Exactly. Talk of FTF is fanciful. They have skimped again.

Our best assistant coach gets a senior gig, that's fair enough, then we do not replace him.

Our development coaches are in L plates.

Cheap.

Our fitness staff are not to the level of one's who are in the top echelon of the ladder.

Cheap.

 

[Googstar]

Exactly. Talk of FTF is fanciful. They have skimped again.

Our best assistant coach gets a senior gig, that's fair enough, then we do not replace him.

Our development coaches are in L plates.

Cheap.

Our fitness staff are not to the level of one's who are in the top echelon of the ladder.

Cheap.

These areas are a major concern to me and they effect our player development. For all the gains we have made off-field, we are not spending enough money in the key areas of our football department, recruiting, player development & fitness.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Frustrating seeing a bloke like Patrick Karnezis go to Collingwood and in his 2nd game kick 4 goals,And Kyle Martin kick 6.Yes i know its a VFL game,I hope we can get those sorts of output from our players sometime down the track with good sound development.