Autopsy Positives and Negatives vs Sydney

[WCErevival]

This is where the failings of drafts past come back to haunt the club.


In 2015, rather than Partington and Mutimer, what if the club had selected J.Dawson and S.Menegola

In 2016, rather than Venables, what if the club had selected J.Berry

In 2017, rather than Brander, what if the club had selected Z.Bailey

In 2018, rather than trading down for O'Neill, what if the club had used 23 on I.Hill or J.Rowbottom

The 2019 and 2020 drafts were shot due to the T.Kelly trade.


More than enough chances there to form a core that could be used for succession from the current group.

As has been stated by many at length on numerous occasions, the midfield recruitment for the club in particular is substandard, and has been so for many years now.

Menagola is older than Yeo and Kelly.

 

[Bender_]

Low and behold here we are 5 games in and the talk is about the quality of young midfield talent coming through this club.

Absolutely shocked... shocked to be sitting here.



Perhaps next time the "melters" on draft night will be taken a little more seriously when Rohan picks up another 'potential midfield' prospect, who is injury prone no less, with our first selection instead of an ACTUAL midfield prospect.

I realize the Chesser injury isn't his fault, but face facts... that'll be how many games of football for him in the past 3 years? And this is our plan?

Geez you're really running with this whiny campaigner schtick ay.

 

[Dark Sharks]

Geez you're really running with this whiny campaigner schtick ay.

Yes

 

[Priddis Is Done]

And now Bondy is talking about splitting picks for English

FMD

Absolute lunacy, IMO. Drafting like the old crew have it in them to time machine it back 4 years.

It's ridiculous.

 

[Priddis Is Done]

Low and behold here we are 5 games in and the talk is about the quality of young midfield talent coming through this club.

Absolutely shocked... shocked to be sitting here.



Perhaps next time the "melters" on draft night will be taken a little more seriously when Rohan picks up another 'potential midfield' prospect, who is injury prone no less, with our first selection instead of an ACTUAL midfield prospect.

I realize the Chesser injury isn't his fault, but face facts... that'll be how many games of football for him in the past 3 years? And this is our plan?

Like someone else said a fair while back.

Drafting based on best available is okay but not all the time.

It's like me opening up a resteraunt and having all the best waiters in the world. Where are the cooks, the cleaners, who's sourcing the food etc...

It is so ridiculous that it's complete lunacy.and a disgrace. It is kindergarten stuff.

We are that shit scared of indentifying a midfield with talent that we are better of trading one in.

 

[shooshka]

This is where the failings of drafts past come back to haunt the club.


In 2015, rather than Partington and Mutimer, what if the club had selected J.Dawson and S.Menegola

In 2016, rather than Venables, what if the club had selected J.Berry

In 2017, rather than Brander, what if the club had selected Z.Bailey

In 2018, rather than trading down for O'Neill, what if the club had used 23 on I.Hill or J.Rowbottom

The 2019 and 2020 drafts were shot due to the T.Kelly trade.


More than enough chances there to form a core that could be used for succession from the current group.

As has been stated by many at length on numerous occasions, the midfield recruitment for the club in particular is substandard, and has been so for many years now.

No team drafts perfectly, so whilst it is a nice headline it just isn't reality.

We were probably hurt most by no team taking Brander in the top 12 in 2017. We likely take Allen as a reach at 12 (and all melt hard), then TK at 21.

Flow on for 2019/2020 is massive for us (but TK may not have come on as much as a player as we would hide him on a hff to develop).


The other thing that has really hurt is the Gorter, Burrows, Collins, rookie picks plus relisting others (Ah Chee, Brayshaw, Venables although I understand why). And Rioli 2 years out. We've been running a shorter list for a few years and that tens to be at the cost of young development players.

On SM-G986B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Chump Change]

You wanted him sacked 2 years after a flag, during a goddamn global pandemic? Again, what?

???

You're "whatting" me? Let me take you through this slowly....

1. We had a poor 2019. We couldn't execute our gameplan properly. It seemed players didn't have the hunger to put in the hard work. But, it could have been a premiership hangover. Simmo has some credits so it's play on.
2. 2020. Same same. Our players just didn't want to work hard to get that fine balance between zoning off and putting on pressure. Lots of zoning off, almost no pressure, and our contest ball count was to much in favour of the opposition. It's clear that it's a pattern and after 8 years of being coached how to corale and zone off, we were unable to win contested ball (the cornerstone of 99% of flag wins). Simmo had to recognise this and make changes, otherwise the board should have sacked him....
3. He went into 2021 without changing the way we played. Same result.
4. So after winning a flag, he had 3 follow up seasons where we weren't really in the ball park. Simmo couldn't see it. Should have been sacked.
5. Now we're in freefall, which would have happened either way, but with only 1 flag. The other way, no guarantees but at least we would have had a shot.

So now with the benefit of hindsight, we can all clearly see what happened. But you're in denial. Why?

 

[EagleEgo]

In the very short history (6 years with 2020 postponed) of AFL Good Friday games, WCE participated in 2 Good Friday home games, (2019 and 2022). WCE performed poorly in both games resulting in big losses with sign of players not willing to compete. Is it religion related or holiday related or other reason? The club should seriously stop this trend to continue.

 

[garlic munchers]

???

You're "whatting" me? Let me take you through this slowly....

1. We had a poor 2019. We couldn't execute our gameplan properly. It seemed players didn't have the hunger to put in the hard work. But, it could have been a premiership hangover. Simmo has some credits so it's play on.
2. 2020. Same same. Our players just didn't want to work hard to get that fine balance between zoning off and putting on pressure. Lots of zoning off, almost no pressure, and our contest ball count was to much in favour of the opposition. It's clear that it's a pattern and after 8 years of being coached how to corale and zone off, we were unable to win contested ball (the cornerstone of 99% of flag wins). Simmo had to recognise this and make changes, otherwise the board should have sacked him....
3. He went into 2021 without changing the way we played. Same result.
4. So after winning a flag, he had 3 follow up seasons where we weren't really in the ball park. Simmo couldn't see it. Should have been sacked.
5. Now we're in freefall, which would have happened either way, but with only 1 flag. The other way, no guarantees but at least we would have had a shot.

So now with the benefit of hindsight, we can all clearly see what happened. But you're in denial. Why?

Hard to argue factually against this review.

WC has had a stench about it for a long time and the friends, flags and families motto imploded really quickly.

In a ruthless AFL world, we jagged one in 2018 and it will still be one of the most memorable days in my life (after 1992 and just before my wedding).

 

[Ambrose Burnside]

From 2015-2018 we played off in two Grand Finals, winning more overall games and finals than any other club. We went all out on Tim Kelly

11

Tim Kelly

Age

31

Ht

184cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

23.6

5star

K

13.5

5star

HB

10.1

5star

M

3.4

3star

T

4.0

5star

CL

4.9

5star

D

19.9

5star

K

12.3

5star

HB

7.6

4star

M

3.1

3star

T

4.7

5star

CL

3.6

4star

D

21.6

5star

K

10.4

4star

HB

11.2

5star

M

2.8

3star

T

3.8

5star

CL

3.8

5star

to try and snag another, then Willie smoked pot, covid hit and it didn't work out. Shit happens.

Footy is cyclical, and we're in our 2000-2001 or 2008-2010 period again. Nailing the drafts (and not doing stupid shit like trading down, splitting picks, Tim English) is going to be key. If Darling can get gud like Gov has, we can rebuild around a spine (with depth) of Darling and Gov passing the baton to Waterman, Allen, Barrass, Edwards, Dixon, Bazzo, Jamieson, Strnadica and the two Williams'. That's not bad, and we're going to see what they can all do this year.

Time to find the next Judd, Martin, Petracca etc. Not ****ing Tim English paired up with the next Dom Sheed or Jack Redden

8

Jack Redden

Age

35

Ht

190cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

21.6

5star

K

11.0

4star

HB

10.6

5star

M

4.7

4star

T

5.7

5star

CL

3.9

5star

D

15.0

4star

K

7.3

3star

HB

7.8

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

2.3

3star

CL

1.5

4star

D

15.4

4star

K

7.8

3star

HB

7.6

5star

M

4.0

4star

T

4.8

5star

(or, more likely, an injured HBF).

Do that for three years in a row. Then you can start plugging gaps Chick/Stenglein or Jetta/Redden style. But not now. Never now.

 

[Chump Change]

From 2015-2018 we played off in two Grand Finals, winning more overall games and finals than any other club. We went all out on Tim Kelly to try and snag another, then Willie smoked pot, covid hit and it didn't work out. Shit happens.

Footy is cyclical, and we're in our 2000-2001 or 2008-2010 period again. Nailing the drafts (and not doing stupid shit like trading down, splitting picks, Tim English) is going to be key. If Darling can get gud like Gov has, we can rebuild around a spine (with depth) of Darling and Gov passing the baton to Waterman, Allen, Barrass, Edwards, Dixon, Bazzo, Jamieson, Strnadica and the two Williams'. That's not bad, and we're going to see what they can all do this year.

Time to find the next Judd, Martin, Petracca etc. Not ******* Tim English paired up with the next Dom Sheed or Jack Redden (or, more likely, an injured HBF).

Do that for three years in a row. Then you can start plugging gaps Chick/Stenglein or Jetta/Redden style. But not now. Never now.

Correctamundo

 

[FKASC]

Time to find the next Judd, Martin, Petracca etc. Not ******* Tim English paired up with the next Dom Sheed or Jack Redden (or, more likely, an injured HBF).

Need a new coach before you can take that approach though. Incumbents won’t bottom out

 

[Chump Change]

Have a look at the last 6 flag sides:

2021 - Melbourne Petracca #2 2014, Oliver #4 2015, Brayshaw #3 2014, added bonus: Salem #9 2013
2020 - Richmond Dusty #3 2009, Cotchin #2 2007
2019 - Richmond Dusty #3 2009, Cotchin #2 2007
2018 - West Coast Kennedy #4 2005, NicNat #2 2008, Gaff #4 2010
2017 - Richmond Dusty #3 2009, Cotchin #2 2007
2016 - Bulldogs - Bontempelli #4 2013, Macrae #6 2012, Stringer #5 2012

Before that Hawks had Hodge at #1, Buddy at #4 or #4, Roughy at #1, and Cats had Bartel top 5 and a host of others.

Maybe above West Coast are a slight exception (yes I know Nic and Gaffy didn't play on the day), but more so we were a bit more even - Shuey. Yeo, Darling all around #20-25, Hurn #12 ish, Sheppard #7. We had a really even spread and our top 5 picks didn't match a Dusty/Cotch or Trac/Clarrie combo.

But it's getting harder to be a flag team without a a couple of your prime movers being top 5 draft picks.

When we lose, I'm relaxed. Super ****ing chilled.

 

[Chump Change]

Need a new coach before you can take that approach though. Incumbents won’t bottom out

They'll do everything they can not to (to save their jobs and keep the dream (that is now a delusion) alive).

Have a look at Mitchell and Macrae though - going hard early and setting themselves up to fail. Can coach but going to end up with short cattle.

Rutten - he's just getting low draft picks for the benefit of the guy who will replace him.

Timing matters. I think Voss has got it right. Plum time to walk into Carlton.

 

[WCErevival]

Footy is cyclical, and we're in our 2000-2001 or 2008-2010 period again.

Thats why when other supporters (like freo) try and have a go I dont care. We were up a while, played in some grand finals, won a premiership and now we are going down again. That's how it works in the AFL. Its happening to Richmond and it already happened to Hawthorn. You just have make sure you achieve something while you're up there. If we end up missing the finals for 10 years then fair enough have a crack.

 

[Ambrose Burnside]

Thats why when other supporters (like freo) try and have a go I dont care. We were up a while, played in some grand finals, won a premiership and now we are going down again. That's how it works in the AFL. Its happening to Richmond and it already happened to Hawthorn. You just have make sure you achieve something while you're up there. If we end up missing the finals for 10 years then fair enough have a crack.

Freo hate it when we BrInG uP tHe PaSt but those knuckle-dragging campaigners don't know what it's like to taste the ultimate while you're at the top. To be up there for a few years and have nothing to show from it, man. Would truly suck. Port are experiencing it now. How many Prelims under Hinkley again?

 

[Rowan18]

Freo hate it when we BrInG uP tHe PaSt but those knuckle-dragging campaigners don't know what it's like to taste the ultimate while you're at the top. To be up there for a few years and have nothing to show from it, man. Would truly suck. Port are experiencing it now. How many Prelims under Hinkley again?

Port have to ditch Hinkley ASAP. They've actually got a pretty good squad with some good young talent. Is criminal that they haven't at least played in a GF.

 

[CM9000]

???

You're "whatting" me? Let me take you through this slowly....

1. We had a poor 2019. We couldn't execute our gameplan properly. It seemed players didn't have the hunger to put in the hard work. But, it could have been a premiership hangover. Simmo has some credits so it's play on.
2. 2020. Same same. Our players just didn't want to work hard to get that fine balance between zoning off and putting on pressure. Lots of zoning off, almost no pressure, and our contest ball count was to much in favour of the opposition. It's clear that it's a pattern and after 8 years of being coached how to corale and zone off, we were unable to win contested ball (the cornerstone of 99% of flag wins). Simmo had to recognise this and make changes, otherwise the board should have sacked him....
3. He went into 2021 without changing the way we played. Same result.
4. So after winning a flag, he had 3 follow up seasons where we weren't really in the ball park. Simmo couldn't see it. Should have been sacked.
5. Now we're in freefall, which would have happened either way, but with only 1 flag. The other way, no guarantees but at least we would have had a shot.

So now with the benefit of hindsight, we can all clearly see what happened. But you're in denial. Why?

Again, there was a global pandemic. The goddamn GF hasn’t been played in Melbourne for the past 2 years. Why did we go on a 7 game winning streak in 2020 after arriving back in the state, if we had been worked out? How did Shuey and Yeo being injured for large parts of both 2020 and 2021 not affect us? How does spending an entire season outside the state not affect anything?

Going by your logic, Simon Goodwin should’ve been sacked at the end of 2020, after finishing third last the year after a prelim and missing the finals the following year. Additionally, Damien Hardwick should’ve been sacked in 2015 after Richmond failed to win a final for 3 consecutive years.

The entire reason Adelaide haven‘t been able to win more than two flags is because they’ve sacked their coaches immediately if they don’t reach expectations:

• In 1993, Graham Cornes led Adelaide to their first finals series after 2 seasons of finishing 9th. They made the prelim, only to lose from a 42 point half time lead against Essendon. They then missed the finals the following year and Cornes was asked to leave.
• After replacing Malcolm Blight in 2000, Gary Ayres led them to the finals from 2001-03. In 2004, after finding themselves sitting midtable by the middle of the year, Ayres was told he would no longer be needed.
• In his inaugural season after replacing Craig, Brenton Sanderson got Adelaide within a goal of the GF in 2012. They sacked Sanderson after the Crows didn’t make finals the next 2 seasons, to be replaced by Walsh.

In all cases, Adelaide had greater success after the sacking (consecutive prelims under Neil Craig, a prelim under Sanderson, a GF under Pyke), but have been unable to reach the ultimate glory, precisely because their board is so reactionary when results don’t go their way. It got to the point where, in an effort to build “mental resilience“, they went with that stupid camp which basically destroyed their club.

So that’s why your approach doesn’t make sense, because the coaching staff and the club don’t exist in a vacuum. The unfortunate fact about football is we exist in a physical reality that impacts us beyond the results of different matches, and we are currently in a situation on which we are absolutely ****ed.

 

[The_Gambler]

Again, there was a global pandemic. The goddamn GF hasn’t been played in Melbourne for the past 2 years. Why did we go on a 7 game winning streak in 2020 after arriving back in the state, if we had been worked out? How did Shuey and Yeo being injured for large parts of both 2020 and 2021 not affect us? How does spending an entire season outside the state not affect anything?

Going by your logic, Simon Goodwin should’ve been sacked at the end of 2020, after finishing third last the year after a prelim and missing the finals the following year. Additionally, Damien Hardwick should’ve been sacked in 2015 after Richmond failed to win a final for 3 consecutive years.

The entire reason Adelaide haven‘t been able to win more than two flags is because they’ve sacked their coaches immediately if they don’t reach expectations:

• In 1993, Graham Cornes led Adelaide to their first finals series after 2 seasons of finishing 9th. They made the prelim, only to lose from a 42 point half time lead against Essendon. They then missed the finals the following year and Cornes was asked to leave.
• After replacing Malcolm Blight in 2000, Gary Ayres led them to the finals from 2001-03. In 2004, after finding themselves sitting midtable by the middle of the year, Ayres was told he would no longer be needed.
• In his inaugural season after replacing Craig, Brenton Sanderson got Adelaide within a goal of the GF in 2012. They sacked Sanderson after the Crows didn’t make finals the next 2 seasons, to be replaced by Walsh.

In all cases, Adelaide had greater success after the sacking (consecutive prelims under Neil Craig, a prelim under Sanderson, a GF under Pyke), but have been unable to reach the ultimate glory, precisely because their board is so reactionary when results don’t go their way. It got to the point where, in an effort to build “mental resilience“, they went with that stupid camp which basically destroyed their club.

So that’s why your approach doesn’t make sense, because the coaching staff and the club don’t exist in a vacuum. The unfortunate fact about football is we exist in a physical reality that impacts us beyond the results of different matches, and we are currently in a situation on which we are absolutely f’ed.

I guess you are trying to say we don’t have synergy?

I’m tired off that bullshit excuse, he’s listening to too much John butler or something. If Simpson just said it like it is was I’d respect him - not enough passion, work ethic and physicality

 

[CM9000]

I guess you are trying to say we don’t have synergy?

I’m tired off that bullshit excuse, he’s listening to too much John butler or something. If Simpson just said it like it is was I’d respect him - not enough passion, work ethic and physicality

The unfortunate thing about this world is that we aren’t disconnected from each other, as if we’re isolated individuals living completely cut off from each other. Events in the world impact us just as much as things that are our own responsibility.

The club is no different.

 

[Goroyals22]

The unfortunate thing about this world is that we aren’t disconnected from each other, as if we’re isolated individuals living completely cut off from each other. Events in the world impact us just as much as things that are our own responsibility.

The club is no different.

Covid impacted every team the past two years… we were lucky to get 7 games at home in a row the last couple of years plenty of teams didn’t have 7 home games the past two years in total.. most of those seemed to adapt to the circumstances alright… its a b/s excuse

 

[Ambrose Burnside]

NO EXCUSES

 

[Agent93]

I dunno, that was a pretty good showing considering we dumped the entire midfield from the previous week in favour of a group that, whilst great players in their own right, have had the worst collective preparation to the season in for the club in the last decade.

I mean, it's not like we had the perfect example of what happens without a pre-season in Jack Darling

27

Jack Darling

Age

33

Ht

191cm

Wt

95kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.1

3star

K

7.9

3star

HB

4.2

3star

M

5.0

5star

T

3.0

5star

G

1.9

5star

D

8.0

2star

K

4.3

2star

HB

3.7

3star

M

2.7

3star

T

2.4

3star

G

1.3

5star

D

14.6

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

7.0

5star

M

6.0

5star

T

4.0

5star

G

1.4

5star

.

I feel sorry for Barrass, who tried to do everything and couldn't. I feel sorry for the burden on guys like Naish and Witherden who had to be perfect because the opposition outworked every potential target. Most of all I feel sorry for us fans if the club decides that it's still contending this season because there is a massive gulf between us and Sydney. I get you can't publicise that you've pulled the pin, but there are crazy subtler ways of, you know, not picking the underdone A-graders to see what we've got in reserve.

Between us and the yet to be fixtured games are 5 similar midfields (and Port), so I guess a positive is that once we're through that we should be well and truly aware of where the club is at. If we are still competing for a premiership we should win a majority of those games, and get pumped in none of them. I don't have much hope of that happening, but at least it gives us half a season to cotton-wool the stars, and see what we've got in reserve.

 

[Rowan18]

A really frustrating thing with being so bad this year, is that the competition looks very even. Melbourne is belting along but the rest of the ladder is pretty tight. The top 4 is wide open.

 

[The wily weagle]

Have a look at the last 6 flag sides:

2021 - Melbourne Petracca #2 2014, Oliver #4 2015, Brayshaw #3 2014, added bonus: Salem #9 2013
2020 - Richmond Dusty #3 2009, Cotchin #2 2007
2019 - Richmond Dusty #3 2009, Cotchin #2 2007
2018 - West Coast Kennedy #4 2005, NicNat #2 2008, Gaff #4 2010
2017 - Richmond Dusty #3 2009, Cotchin #2 2007
2016 - Bulldogs - Bontempelli #4 2013, Macrae #6 2012, Stringer #5 2012

I love this breakdown because it shows exactly where we are going wrong. Rather pick explosive, inside, contested ball winning mids (and i am NOT saying that Kennedy and Nic Nat were poor acquisitions, because they clearly weren't), we prioritize talls and halfback flankers. And when we do select a midfielder with a top pick, its an outside mid with no contested game like Gaff or Masten.

Its not rocket science as to what we need to do, we have all picked up on it for years: select and prioritize the best contested ball winning midfielders that we can. And if it works out that we end up with too many? Good! That's an excellent problem for us to have