Discussion Prison Bars debate

[TheLoungeLizard]

Comparing the AFL to English football is pointless.

English football has a longer history (back to when jumpers were at their very most basic) and a relegation system that means you and another team may never cross paths and it's not an issue (see Glenelg and Richmond) or you may randomly for one season.

The AFL is a fixed team competition and one in a very small market with very limited growth and sales.

It's basic business branding to protect your image - and Collingwood's image in the VFL/AFL history has, for a very long time, been black and white stripes (in whichever order you like)
Port asked to join the VFL/AFL competition from the SANFL and Collingwood having been in that first, rightly asked they don't wear a jumper that at all comes close to their established brand.

In any business you have the right to stand your ground - I would argue if the jumper was black with a white V Collingwood wouldn't care.
It's not that it's stripes, nor that the colouring is black and white - but it's black and white stripes.
That's like GWS coming in with a black jumper and a yellow sash over the right shoulder, Richmond wouldn't allow it.

The Bars is a beautiful jumper and I can see it becoming a Showdown special one day, but a full time jumper in the AFL?
I cannot see it.

Anyone with any basic background in business branding (like I have) will understand that one of any business' key pillars is new fans/customers and Collingwood will argue that a highly similar jumper to theirs creates brand confusion and is bad for business and my experience with two non-AFL nuffs is the Bars jumper in the Showdown did exactly that.

Take the emotion out of it, it's brand dilution and Collingwood (being in this competition first) have a very logical reason.

 

[RossFC]

When did Port fans lose all sense of common sense?

Common sense would be using different coloured away and clash jumpers when appropriate, and for people watching TV who don't know who is playing to look at the corner of the screen and clearly see "Port Adelaide" written on the scoreboard.

 

[Dylan8]

When did Port fans lose all sense of common sense?

lol

 

[RossFC]

I'm a huge moron who lives by first impressions and if I can't immediately discern one thing from another I get so confused I do a big sh*t in my pants.

 

[Craegus]

I'm a huge moron who lives by first impressions and if I can't immediately discern one thing from another I get so confused I do a big sh*t in my pants.

 

[TheLoungeLizard]

Common sense would be using different coloured away and clash jumpers when appropriate, and for people watching TV who don't know who is playing to look at the corner of the screen and clearly see "Port Adelaide" written on the scoreboard.

I don't necessarily disagree - I think the Bars jumper would be awesome (however I do think the current V jumper is a great looking jumper) but I am just saying while you and I would think to look at the scorebug and can make sense of it, it's not footy nuts or jumper enthusiasts like us who are the demographic they are concerned about.

We will never see what they se as people who post on footy forums aren't the worry.

lol

That's a solid argument, I can't compete with that.

 

[Pappaya]

Comparing the AFL to English football is pointless.

English football has a longer history (back to when jumpers were at their very most basic) and a relegation system that means you and another team may never cross paths and it's not an issue (see Glenelg and Richmond) or you may randomly for one season.

The AFL is a fixed team competition and one in a very small market with very limited growth and sales.

It's basic business branding to protect your image - and Collingwood's image in the VFL/AFL history has, for a very long time, been black and white stripes (in whichever order you like)
Port asked to join the VFL/AFL competition from the SANFL and Collingwood having been in that first, rightly asked they don't wear a jumper that at all comes close to their established brand.

In any business you have the right to stand your ground - I would argue if the jumper was black with a white V Collingwood wouldn't care.
It's not that it's stripes, nor that the colouring is black and white - but it's black and white stripes.
That's like GWS coming in with a black jumper and a yellow sash over the right shoulder, Richmond wouldn't allow it.

The Bars is a beautiful jumper and I can see it becoming a Showdown special one day, but a full time jumper in the AFL?
I cannot see it.

Anyone with any basic background in business branding (like I have) will understand that one of any business' key pillars is new fans/customers and Collingwood will argue that a highly similar jumper to theirs creates brand confusion and is bad for business and my experience with two non-AFL nuffs is the Bars jumper in the Showdown did exactly that.

Take the emotion out of it, it's brand dilution and Collingwood (being in this competition first) have a very logical reason.

The brand dilution argument is a joke. Collingwood wouldn’t lose a single dollar if they wore a different-coloured third kit once or twice a year. On the contrary they’d probably earn a few more.

Clubs do this all over the world. If the arrangements in the Premier League are invalid for reasons then look at the NBA instead. The Lakers have worn four different coloured kits during the play offs; yellow, purple, black and white. One of the biggest sporting brands on Earth using non-core colours.

Oh Em Gee has Le Bron defected to the Heat mid-series? Me confused.

 

[TheLoungeLizard]

The brand dilution argument is a joke. Collingwood wouldn’t lose a single dollar if they wore a different-coloured third kit once or twice a year. On the contrary they’d probably earn a few more.

Clubs do this all over the world. If the arrangements in the Premier League are invalid for reasons then look at the NBA instead. The Lakers have worn four different coloured kits during the play offs; yellow, purple, black and white. One of the biggest sporting brands on Earth.

Oh Em Gee has Le Bron defected to the Heat mid-series? Me confused.

I don't know a thing about basketball so I'm unable to follow you on that, or who Le Bron is.

But again, comparing the market size of NBA to AFL is chalk and cheese.

AFL is a tiny, tiny market in Australia (since the second biggest city in Australia barely gives a toss about it) and the margins to grow your brand are severely limited, so yeah, they do risk brand dilution with another club sharing their jumper and main branding.

The EPL, NBA and other major leagues around the world have a worldwide market to tap into - AFL has 18 spots in a one country market - it makes brand growth hard and if they believe it 'could' impact sales/the Collingwood name they have a right to prevent it since they were in this competition first.

Likewise, if Richmond deflected to the SANFL I would agree that Richmond would need to overhaul their image, if they wanted in that badly - which is what Port did.
No one forced them into the AFL, but they came in knowing their was already a team who wore black and white stripes and what it meant.

Don't take this as me saying I don't think they shouldn't wear it, but in my professional background of business branding, I can totally see why Collingwood make a issue out of it.

 

[Dylan8]

Arguing these things with oppo fans gives me will give me an aneurysm, and this should probably be moved out of this thread but I will add finally: the prison bar jumper has only been seen three times in the last decade at AFL level. Once it becomes fully swallowed into the footy public's conscience (Showdowns...), you won't hear any confusion. Even if, you know, people are so dumb they see Port Adelaide players playing at Adelaide Oval in front of Port Adelaide fans and look at the scorebug that says "PA" and think 'man, is that Collingwood?'.

The us vs them thing with Collingwood and Port would be a huge marketing win, if anything. And it's not as if teal (and silver) disappear from our merchandise, logo, other guernseys, etc. Alright I'm stopping now.

 

[TheLoungeLizard]

The brand dilution argument is a joke. Collingwood wouldn’t lose a single dollar if they wore a different-coloured third kit once or twice a year. On the contrary they’d probably earn a few more.

Clubs do this all over the world. If the arrangements in the Premier League are invalid for reasons then look at the NBA instead. The Lakers have worn four different coloured kits during the play offs; yellow, purple, black and white. One of the biggest sporting brands on Earth using non-core colours.

Oh Em Gee has Le Bron defected to the Heat mid-series? Me confused.

It's also not about Collingwood wearing a different top.
They would have market research to prove they wouldn't sell a 3rd jumper or we would see it.

It's about non-footy people, new comers or people who don't really observe the sport (eg new fans/customers) who just know Collingwood as "black and white" and see Port running around in a black jumper with white stripes (which is fundamentally is) and think 'Oh, Collingwood are playing' and don't know Ports history likr we do, which is precisely the real life scenario I presented earlier that happened to me.

Collingwood is a business and every business is looking for new customers and any other competitive brand that uses similar imagery is potentially taking those paying customers away from you, and that's a problem.

Collingwood are only looking out for their bottom dollar, take the emotion out of it (which some Port supporters on here clearly can't) and it's a very logical and sensible business decision and nothing more.

 

[Pappaya]

It's also not about Collingwood wearing a different top.
They would have market research to prove they wouldn't sell a 3rd jumper or we would see it.

It's about non-footy people, new comers or people who don't really observe the sport (eg new fans/customers) who just know Collingwood as "black and white" and see Port running around in a black jumper with white stripes (which is fundamentally is) and think 'Oh, Collingwood are playing' and don't know Ports history likr we do, which is precisely the real life scenario I presented earlier that happened to me.

Collingwood is a business and every business is looking for new customers and any other competitive brand that uses similar imagery is potentially taking those paying customers away from you, and that's a problem.

Collingwood are only looking out for their bottom dollar, take the emotion out of it (which some Port supporters on here clearly can't) and it's a very logical and sensible business decision and nothing more.

This is rubbish. Most people who care to have a team already have one. It’s a highly saturated market. Who are Collingwood losing to us? Immigrants and babies? Most genuine, profitable newcomers would lean towards a team located where they live anyway so that they can attend games.

There is practically zero competition for supporters between us as it is and us wearing the Prison Bars does nothing to change that.

 

[TheLoungeLizard]

Pappagallo no business would ever give the thumbs up to another competitor business (in a limited 17 competitor industry) in a incredibly small and financially limited industry bringing their strongest and main marketing position to be as similar as they are.

Take the history, team loyalty and footy jumper knowledge out of it and it's a sensible business decision to keep their dollar growth unimpeded.

May it make 0 difference? Maybe
Is there a chance they could take some new customers/finances? Yes
Therefore, why allow the risk?

It's not a footy issue its a business issue.

And I suggest doing some research on the growth of footy fans and where the finances come from before flippantly calling them immigrants and babies.

 

[juddy_Like]

Surely Port would know all about ‘brand awareness’ after the whole China, GC and Red/yellow fiasco from a few years ago.

 

[Pappaya]

Pappagallo no business would ever give the thumbs up to another competitor business (in a limited 17 competitor industry) in a incredibly small and financially limited industry bringing their strongest and main marketing position to be as similar as they are.

Take the history, team loyalty and footy jumper knowledge out of it and it's a sensible business decision to keep their dollar growth unimpeded.

May it make 0 difference? Maybe
Is there a chance they could take some new customers/finances? Yes
Therefore, why allow the risk?

It's not a footy issue its a business issue.

And I suggest doing some research on the growth of footy fans and where the finances come from before flippantly calling them immigrants and babies.

I’d suggest not treating footy teams like competing brands of soft drink. They’re a completely different animal and different rules apply. No one is trying the other product because of fancy new packaging. There aren’t being sold side by side, not even in the same bloody time zone.

There is zero commerical risk to Collingwood. Zero. The only thing at risk here is Maguire’s massive ego.

 

[juddy_Like]

I’d suggest not treating footy teams like competing brands of soft drink. They’re a completely different animal and different rules apply. No one is trying the other product because of fancy new packaging. There aren’t being sold side by side, not even in the same bloody time zone.

There is zero commerical risk to Collingwood. Zero. The only thing at risk here is Maguire’s massive ego.

Have you asked Kochie about the marketing of Gold Coast and wearing red in China?

I respectively could not disagree more with this point.

 

[TheLoungeLizard]

I’d suggest not treating footy teams like competing brands of soft drink. They’re a completely different animal and different rules apply. No one is trying the other product because of fancy new packaging. There aren’t being sold side by side, not even in the same bloody time zone.

There is zero commerical risk to Collingwood. Zero. The only thing at risk here is Maguire’s massive ego.

That's incredibly incorrect.

Each football club is a business that operate as a commercial entity.
They each hire staff, have a marketing team, hire outside marketing research and put a lot of time and effort in.

No doubt from a football point of view they discussed the idea of Port wearing it and the data came back it was a negative move.

Kochie doesn't just ring up Eddie and ask if its cool and Eddie alone says no.
Ridiculous thinking - it would be ratified ny the board and taken back to the AFL (who ultimately actually have the final say)
Eddie may talk the talk in the media because that's part of his and the clubs very well researched and cultivated public image (us against them ect) but thats not how it happens.

It's entirely a data driven business decision based around making sure they don't lose any potential revenue - yep, just like soft drink companies!

The AFL may be a billion dollar business, the clubs are not - and particularly in a post COVID world, there will be less risk taken on potential income (especially since Collingwood has become so big based off brand recognition)

 

[Freight Train]

I'm pretty sure there is a thread for all this Port talk, but the Bars will never become an AFL fixture.

Based purely off when they wore the Bars against the Crows my girlfriend who is a AFL fan asked if the Pies were playing and then my house mate who knows absolutely nothing about AFL asked who Collingwood were playing.

Collingwood have a right to protect their brand as they were in the AFL first, Port have and will stay adapted in the top flight and can do as they please in the SANFL.

Likewise if Glenelg came into the AFL they would have to change their kit and if Richmond left the AFL and went into the SANFL they would have to do the same.

Does she also think West Coast are playing when Gold Coast are in their clash?

Yes there will be some confusion from people at first but life will go on as normal and both clubs will still have their own identities.

 

[TheLoungeLizard]

Does she also think West Coast are playing when Gold Coast are in their clash?

Yes there will be some confusion from people at first but life will go on as normal and both clubs will still have their own identities.

That's never come up, I can ask

I'm not saying it's a problem to me as a football fan, but ultimately all of us can't make an objective call as we post on a football jumpers forum, know the long and proud histories of the jumpers and the clubs.

I'm commenting on why Collingwood will try and block it happening and from my RL experience in branding why that will be - I may well be wrong.
I don't see Collingwood giving it the thumbs up, especially in a post COVID world

 

[Pappaya]

That's incredibly incorrect.

Each football club is a business that operate as a commercial entity.
They each hire staff, have a marketing team, hire outside marketing research and put a lot of time and effort in.

No doubt from a football point of view they discussed the idea of Port wearing it and the data came back it was a negative move.

Kochie doesn't just ring up Eddie and ask if its cool and Eddie alone says no.
Ridiculous thinking - it would be ratified ny the board and taken back to the AFL (who ultimately actually have the final say)
Eddie may talk the talk in the media because that's part of his and the clubs very well researched and cultivated public image (us against them ect) but thats not how it happens.

It's entirely a data driven business decision based around making sure they don't lose any potential revenue - yep, just like soft drink companies!

The AFL may be a billion dollar business, the clubs are not - and particularly in a post COVID world, there will be less risk taken on potential income (especially since Collingwood has become so big based off brand recognition)

Oh they have a marketing department just like Coca-Pepsi, must be exactly the same thing then! Let’s ignore all the generational football (and state) tribalism and the tyranny of distance that make it nigh on impossible for Port to steal any of Collingwood’s market share.

The entire argument is absurd.

 

[RossFC]

Surely Port would know all about ‘brand awareness’ after the whole China, GC and Red/yellow fiasco from a few years ago.

Every Port fan was against Kochie on that, and he eventually backed off.

 

[TheLoungeLizard]

Oh they have a marketing department just like Coca-Pepsi, must be exactly the same thing then! Let’s ignore all the generational football (and state) tribalism and the tyranny of distance that make it nigh on impossible for Port to steal any of Collingwood’s market share.

The entire argument is absurd.

I think you're severely overestimating the AFL market.

It's incredibly small and the new customer market is smaller so everyone is scraping for who they can get.

Collingwood didn't get to where they are by risking their brand imagery at all.

It makes no sense business wise to share your main assest with a rival - take the footy jumper/club loyalty out of it.
It's two rival companies competing for customers in a niche market, no one is going to roll over and share any potential income

 

[El_Scorcho]

Pappagallo no business would ever give the thumbs up to another competitor business (in a limited 17 competitor industry) in a incredibly small and financially limited industry bringing their strongest and main marketing position to be as similar as they are.

Take the history, team loyalty and footy jumper knowledge out of it and it's a sensible business decision to keep their dollar growth unimpeded.

May it make 0 difference? Maybe
Is there a chance they could take some new customers/finances? Yes
Therefore, why allow the risk?

It's not a footy issue its a business issue.

And I suggest doing some research on the growth of footy fans and where the finances come from before flippantly calling them immigrants and babies.

Ah yeah, except in every other major sports league in the world where this goes on without an issue.

You keep trying to argue that the AFL is different somehow, but it isn't. You keep dismissing comparisons to literally every other major sports league in the world as if the AFL is somehow limited or special, but it's no different in terms of branding. You can argue the scale is different, but that doesn't make any of your other points correct.

The AFL isn't a new market, it's very well established. The scrambling for dollars isn't done to attract new fans, that isn't what sports branding is about. The only thing that attracts new fans is either your catchment area growing, or winning. Sports branding is about turning casual fans into paying members, which is exactly what Port are trying to do. This will have zero impact on Collingwood, at all.

 

[TheLoungeLizard]

Oh they have a marketing department just like Coca-Pepsi, must be exactly the same thing then! Let’s ignore all the generational football (and state) tribalism and the tyranny of distance that make it nigh on impossible for Port to steal any of Collingwood’s market share.

The entire argument is absurd.

Put it this way Pappagallo if it wasn't at all a brand and financial situation and was purely a visual, footy jumper thing that has no brand risk than Collingwood wouldn't give a shit what Port wear.

But it's literally more than a jumper, it's competing in a national, but niche industry.
It's not as simple as Port have their fans in Adelaide and Collingwood have theirs in Melbourne.

 

[El_Scorcho]

I'm pretty sure there is a thread for all this Port talk, but the Bars will never become an AFL fixture.

Based purely off when they wore the Bars against the Crows my girlfriend who is a AFL fan asked if the Pies were playing and then my house mate who knows absolutely nothing about AFL asked who Collingwood were playing.

Collingwood have a right to protect their brand as they were in the AFL first, Port have and will stay adapted in the top flight and can do as they please in the SANFL.

Likewise if Glenelg came into the AFL they would have to change their kit and if Richmond left the AFL and went into the SANFL they would have to do the same.

If your girlfriend and friend aren't interested in either AFL, Port or Collingwood enough to tell the quote obvious difference, they probably aren't worth a lot of marketing dollars to any of the 3 entities and are therefore completely irrelevant.

 

[TheLoungeLizard]

Ah yeah, except in every other major sports league in the world where this goes on without an issue.

You keep trying to argue that the AFL is different somehow, but it isn't. You keep dismissing comparisons to literally every other major sports league in the world as if the AFL is somehow limited or special, but it's no different in terms of branding. You can argue the scale is different, but that doesn't make any of your other points correct.

The AFL isn't a new market, it's very well established. The scrambling for dollars isn't done to attract new fans, that isn't what sports branding is about. The only thing that attracts new fans is either your catchment area growing, or winning. Sports branding is about turning casual fans into paying members, which is exactly what Port are trying to do. This will have zero impact on Collingwood, at all.

And every other league that has been mentioned has a worldwide scope and/ or relegated system.

The AFL market is incredibly small, it's not even front page news in the second biggest City in the country.

If it was as simple as wanting to wear a jumper and it would have no effect on Collingwood then it would be happening.

I would love to see it - I really would - the Bars are an awesome and beautiful jumper, but Collingwood would have some solid data and grounds to warrant it not happening.

This isn't Eddie being stubborn for the sake of it