Private Schools

Remove this Banner Ad

Kwality

Hall of Famer
Aug 14, 2011
30,420
11,385
Trafalgar
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Mclaren Mercedes F1
.... the son of a third generation dole bludger being given a lesser education then the son of the local doctor or the local $50m station owner just seems wrong on so many levels. The very least that should be done is to remove any payments to private schools from governments imo.
The home is an oft ignored factor not only on education, but respect for others. Its easy to focus on the money & run the lines above but it ignores the people working 2 jobs to send their kids to private schools. People go without to give their kids the best opportunity as they see it, not as you see it.

A good education can be a good start but a high school education neither limits or guarantees you for life.
 

Caesar

Ex-Huckleberry
Mar 3, 2005
26,480
12,162
Tombstone, AZ
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Explain why, due to geography alone, a high-quality state-run education system works in Finland but would not work in Australia.
Because Finland is far smaller and more urbanised than Australia, thus allowing infrastructure and service efficiencies that do not exist in Australia

It is easy to run a public school system in an area with enough students to have many schools in close proximity, a good mix of students with different SESs and academic abilities, selective and special needs schools, and a large local teaching workforce

The tyranny of distance is a huge thing in Australia and people who live in Sydney/Melbourne/Brisbane don’t really get it
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 20, 2006
6,304
7,509
AFL Club
Carlton
The home is an oft ignored factor not only on education, but respect for others. Its easy to focus on the money & run the lines above but it ignores the people working 2 jobs to send their kids to private schools. People go without to give their kids the best opportunity as they see it, not as you see it.

A good education can be a good start but a high school education neither limits or guarantees you for life.
This is sort of the point though. The kids not from good families are again pushed back. If abandoning the private schools gains a better outcome for everyone like we see in Finland then the country is the winner and that’s what the government is supposed to base its approach on. This is the job of government.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 20, 2006
6,304
7,509
AFL Club
Carlton
Because Finland is far smaller and more urbanised than Australia, thus allowing infrastructure and service efficiencies that do not exist in Australia

It is easy to run a public school system in an area with enough students to have many schools in close proximity, a good mix of students with different SESs and academic abilities, selective and special needs schools, and a large local teaching workforce

The tyranny of distance is a huge thing in Australia and people who live in Sydney/Melbourne/Brisbane don’t really get it
Australia is more urbanised then Finland albeit marginally. The distance is a real concern but you are more looking at 2-5% of the population not within commuting distance to fairly major town, so a lot less disadvantaged and considering only a minority from these areas are going to private schools anyway it’s actually more like 1% are possibly remote and that’s probably a stretch.
 

Kwality

Hall of Famer
Aug 14, 2011
30,420
11,385
Trafalgar
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Mclaren Mercedes F1
This is sort of the point though. The kids not from good families are again pushed back. If abandoning the private schools gains a better outcome for everyone like we see in Finland then the country is the winner and that’s what the government is supposed to base its approach on. This is the job of government.
Wealth is not a measure of a caring family in terms of education - the idea its up to the school is common in my experience.

Not sure that a one size fits all approach to education will ever produce the best results, perhaps hold back some to improve an overall result. Is that why we have selective high schools in most States.

Even in terms of footy, some schools do it better than others, particularly boarding schools for country kids.
 

Kwality

Hall of Famer
Aug 14, 2011
30,420
11,385
Trafalgar
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Mclaren Mercedes F1
Australia is more urbanised then Finland albeit marginally. The distance is a real concern but you are more looking at 2-5% of the population not within commuting distance to fairly major town, so a lot less disadvantaged and considering only a minority from these areas are going to private schools anyway it’s actually more like 1% are possibly remote and that’s probably a stretch.
Are you talking about Victoria only?
What size is a major town?

Methinks you've been seduced by the averages.
 

Suspense

AOC + 3
Mar 28, 2006
7,206
2,490
POLICE STATE
AFL Club
Collingwood
Because Finland is far smaller and more urbanised than Australia, thus allowing infrastructure and service efficiencies that do not exist in Australia
What service inefficiencies exactly - and what is the measurable extent of their impact on educational outcomes?

Finland's educational system is highly decentralised. They have a national curriculum but decision making re: how the curriculum is taught and implemented is done locally - meaning that it caters to its local area - be it rural or urban.

The lack of administrative overhead is what keeps their teaching and learning relatively cheap:

Finland is by no means the highest spender per pupil among OECD countries, so money cannot be an important factor in explaining Finland’s success. Teacher salaries are in the middle range for European countries. Schools are quite small in size, but they have minimal administrative overheads. Even in larger schools, principals are expected to teach, and the resources of the school are tightly focused on the classroom. Because of their commitment to the inclusion model, the costs of special education are significantly lower than in countries that rely more heavily on separate classrooms for special education students. Finally, because Finnish schools are mostly a function of municipal government, there are no separate school districts and no intermediate education units sitting between the municipalities and the ministry. Therefore, except for the costs of the national educational administration, virtually all of the money spent on education in Finland is focused on schools and classrooms.

It is easy to run a public school system in an area with enough students to have many schools in close proximity, a good mix of students with different SESs and academic abilities, selective and special needs schools, and a large local teaching workforce
And yet you promote a solution that actively discourages "a good mix of students with different SESs and academic abilities" - something that would improve the quality of schooling in state schools?

Why do you think special needs schools in rural areas would not exist under a state run system?

The best way to attract HQ teachers to state schools in rural areas is to improve the quality of the schooling in those settings - why do you think teachers are fleeing the new amalgamated super-school en masse in Shepparton? (It's not because of "it's rural" - it's because of Govt mismanagement has made the school a terrible schooling environment)

Everything that you claim is inherent to poor quality state schooling in rural areas is exacerbated a public/private system.

The tyranny of distance is a huge thing in Australia and people who live in Sydney/Melbourne/Brisbane don’t really get it
Who are you referring to? Grew up on a dairy farm, educated in rural Victoria and have taught in low-SES state schools in Shepparton and Melbourne fringe.

As a student in a rural area, the most significant factor was having to catch a bus to school.

As a teacher, having class-sizes of 25+, with almost all students from low-SES and/or ESL backgrounds, with between 5-10 behaviourally challenging students (the same students private schools simply expel from their system - because "educating all students" is not in their remit), on a shoestring budget, has a far greater impact on the quality of learning than the fact that Melbourne happens to be 2.5 hrs away.
 
Last edited:

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 20, 2006
6,304
7,509
AFL Club
Carlton
IIRC the ABS has ~30% of the Australian population in rural and remote areas

My understanding is that Finland is less than 15%
71% is major cities, 100,000 plus.

Finland under that metric would be closer to 45%

Are you talking about Victoria only?
What size is a major town?

Methinks you've been seduced by the averages.
no Australia wide.
 

Remove this Banner Ad