Private Schools

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TheBrownDog
Oct 15, 2004
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They may not need those tricks to control the class in the private sector. The private schools tend to actually have consequences for s**t behaviour.

They get expelled and the public schools have to accept them.
Yep

The biggest difference between public and private is
1) consequences
2) all parents care at private schools but not all at public.

Class rooms are often dragged down by distractions, meaning public schools have one hand tied behind their back from the start.
 

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perthblue

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If you don't live in an area with a well regarded public school, then splash out and send them to a private IMO

The average public school will be more concerned with managing the behaviour of dropkick kids with dropkick parents, if your kid is bright they're not gonna get the attention or stimulation they deserve. I went to a bog average public school and while I had some great teachers, I feel they were really stretched thin and also pretty powerless.
 

Engimal v3

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If you don't live in an area with a well regarded public school, then splash out and send them to a private IMO

The average public school will be more concerned with managing the behaviour of dropkick kids with dropkick parents, if your kid is bright they're not gonna get the attention or stimulation they deserve. I went to a bog average public school and while I had some great teachers, I feel they were really stretched thin and also pretty powerless.
Likewise. ~70% of my public school were in the lowest socioeconomic bracket, according to that MySchools website. 300 kids from Kindergarten to Grade 10, crammed into a couple of buildings. Never once had a real science or IT class, over 12 years at the school. Plenty of people in my Year 10 class that I would have described as functionally illiterate. Public education is shit.
 

Papa G

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I pay taxes, some goes to public education, some of it goes to private education. I have one daughter in private secondary school with the second one starting next year, so on top of the taxes, I also pay fees from my after tax wages. I'm paying for everyone else's kids as well as my own.
This is the point all the dip shits forget. If you're earning $200,000, you are dropping roughly $60,000 in tax. If you've got a couple of kids at Private school you are also dropping $50,000 in fees as well as taking pressure off the public system. That $60,000 tax is paying for the education of the kids of the bloke earning $58,000 and effectively paying no tax in the public system.
 

Suspense

Norm Smith Medallist
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I've worked in Public Schools in both low-socioeconomic and high-socioeconomic areas.
The most significant difference is the parents.

Parents of low socio-economic have a higher prevalence of:
- Lack of organisational skills
- Poverty
- Broken Families
- Substance Abuse
- Working extra jobs (unable to help with homework)
- Lower education (literacy and numeracy)
- Lower appreciation for the value of education

These issues are systematic and larger than simply the quality of teachers. There are many studies that show that kids that have parents that encourage reading from an early age is a key determinant for success in education. These students are often best equipped to manage the fourth-grade slump whereas those that don't often flounder through the rest of their schooling - as text comprehension demands continue to scale.

I also went to a public school, had a very easy time doing the set coursework, ended up with an ATAR in the 90's and struggled in my first two years of university because I'd never been faced with work that I had to study to understand before. I have no doubt that if I was sent to private school with a better curriculum, I would have learned to study well before I finished high school. The standard public school curriculum is very much aimed at the average student, ones who fall above and below the baseline end up falling through the cracks because there aren't enough (or good enough) teachers in the public system to identify these students and get them the help they need.
This is largely nonsense. If you know your content well, you can differentiate easily to challenge the high achievers and support those that need extra assistance. The standard public school curriculum is somewhat vaguely defined so you can extend students quite a bit. I've had Year 10 students doing university-level content - because they wanted to and they could.

The larger issue, in the senior years, is that teachers will teach to the final exam - regardless of the ability of the student. This is not a public v private issue - however.
 

Suspense

Norm Smith Medallist
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You're in denial if you think that happens in public schools with any regularity.
It does in Public Schools in mid to high socioeconomic in areas - more challenging in low socioeconomic areas due to the issues I stated above (rather than due to curriculum).

At any length, you are kidding yourself if you think a Private school would have taught you how to be a genuinely independent learner. Be it Public or Private, students are spoonfed very specific content via rote memorisation so that they can excel on the Year 12 exams. This is arguably more important to Private schools than Public schools as high academic achievement (measured via externally administered exams) is a critical part of their marketing strategy.

The challenges you experienced were due to the inherent difference between secondary school education (highly scaffolded, spoonfed) compared to university education (less scaffolded, independent). Private v Public has nothing to do with it.
 
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Nuggs Bunny

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It does in Public Schools in mid to high socioeconomic in areas - more challenging in low socioeconomic areas due to the issues I stated above (rather than due to curriculum).

At any length, you are kidding yourself if you think a Private school would have taught you how to be a genuinely independent learner. Be it Public or Private, students are spoonfed very specific content via rote memorisation so that they can excel on the Year 12 exams. This is arguably more important to Private schools than Public schools as high academic achievement (measured via externally administered exams) is a critical part of their marketing strategy.

The challenges you experienced were due to the inherent difference between secondary school education (highly scaffolded, spoonfed) compared to university education (less scaffolded, independent). Private v Public has nothing to do with it.
On the contrary, I went to one of the least structured high schools in the state by design. The problem I experienced is that the public school curriculum has a very poor approach to teaching students how to actually study in preparation for year 12, or beyond. Private schools, regardless of their motivations, devote much more energy toward this in the years leading up to 11 and 12 for students to acclimatise to the demands of study before starting their VCE. Of course, if you weren't too busy jacking off over being a public school teacher, you could have asked rather than assumed and I would have clarified this for you.

I have no idea what provisions are in the public school system for teaching study skills but perhaps, as the resident expert, you could enlighten us. I personally think they're pretty shitty in comparison to what most private schools offer in that department, and while I don't claim to be rich, I'm definitely sure I didn't go a school in a low-socioeconomic area.
 

Deliverance

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On the contrary, I went to one of the least structured high schools in the state by design. The problem I experienced is that the public school curriculum has a very poor approach to teaching students how to actually study in preparation for year 12, or beyond. Private schools, regardless of their motivations, devote much more energy toward this in the years leading up to 11 and 12 for students to acclimatise to the demands of study before starting their VCE. Of course, if you weren't too busy jacking off over being a public school teacher, you could have asked rather than assumed and I would have clarified this for you.

I have no idea what provisions are in the public school system for teaching study skills but perhaps, as the resident expert, you could enlighten us. I personally think they're pretty s**tty in comparison to what most private schools offer in that department, and while I don't claim to be rich, I'm definitely sure I didn't go a school in a low-socioeconomic area.
When socioeconomic status is taken in to account private and public schools perform almost identically in terms of VCE results. So there is no real gain in VCE study scores.
Then, in relative terms, private school kids flunk uni more regularly than public school kids.
In reality the only net gain for going private is fancy facilities.
 

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Suspense

Norm Smith Medallist
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On the contrary, I went to one of the least structured high schools in the state by design. The problem I experienced is that the public school curriculum has a very poor approach to teaching students how to actually study in preparation for year 12, or beyond. Private schools, regardless of their motivations, devote much more energy toward this in the years leading up to 11 and 12 for students to acclimatise to the demands of study before starting their VCE.
Your original post stated that Public school didn't prepare you for university - whereas a Private school would have. It didn't mention preparation for VCE. You actually made the point that you had a high ATAR - which would indicate that you were well prepared for VCE (perhaps you feel that did well in spite of your public school curriculum?).

Your experiences are certainly valid. My proposition is that the senior school system (both Private and Public) prepares its students for success in the Year 12 exams. This results in being spoonfed very specific content via rote memorisation. They do not teach the independent study skills required for university. This is why universities will generally teach these skills throughout the first year. I can provide you with a stack of academic research papers that support my proposition if you wish.

In the current senior school system, secondary schools (both Public or Private) don't want students to be truly independent learners in VCE - they want their students to be able to memorise content and provide the correct pre-formulated response to the appropriate question in the exam. As you mentioned in your original post, this skill is different from university when you have to study, research and investigate independently. The last thing they want are students providing responses to questions that are outside the scope of the VCAA Study Design!
 
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Bomberboyokay

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The real draw of private schools (unless it's some Looking for Alibrandi/Being The Elite school which probably isn't the case as there's only about 10 of those in each big city and people can't afford to put their kids in them) is the dickhead students are made to straighten up and fly right or f’ed off to derail lessons in public schools. Whatever other benefits are, that's the true appeal for parents on moderate incomes 40km from the CBD.
 
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DAlembert

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The real draw of private schools (unless it's some Looking for Alibrandi/Being The Elite school which probably isn't the case as there's only about 10 of those in each big city and people can't afford to put their kids in them) is the dickhead students are made to straighten up and fly right or f’ed off to derail lessons in public schools. Whatever other benefits are, that's the true appeal for parents on moderate incomes 40km from the CBD.
Yeh that makes sense...WTF o_O o_O
 

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The real draw of private schools (unless it's some Looking for Alibrandi/Being The Elite school which probably isn't the case as there's only about 10 of those in each big city and people can't afford to put their kids in them) is the dickhead students are made to straighten up and fly right or f’ed off to derail lessons in public schools. Whatever other benefits are, that's the true appeal for parents on moderate incomes 40km from the CBD.
The correct interpretation. Even the dodgiest private schools will kick the shit kids out, public schools can't.
 

Guju

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Why do dogs lick their balls? Because they can. So it all comes down to affordability. If I was affluent and can afford to spend circa $25K annually per child, then I would send my kids to private/grammar schools. But I'm not. IMHO the environment in private schools is better than public schools (facilities, parents, curriculum etc), which enhances the potential in your child.

But I think the best is to buy a house in one of the top public school zones. I rather put my money into upgrading my beautiful house than into private school coffers. There are many top public schools in Melbourne (mainly in eastern suburbs though) such as, University High, Princes Hill, or McKinnon. But houses in top public school zones come at a premium.

I am planning to buy in North Melbourne so my kid can go to University High.

Alternatively I know some parents whom rent out their home, and they rent another place in a top public school zone area just for their kids.

Even better, if your kid can pass the examination for top selective public schools, such as Melbourne high. Or your kid passes the seals test and get chosen for a high performing seals class, separate from normal classes, in a school that provides such a program.

Each to their own. There is always the notion of, you can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
 
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DaRick

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The correct interpretation. Even the dodgiest private schools will kick the shit kids out, public schools can't.
Theoretically state schools can kick people out, but it has to be for something extremely improbable like, say, attacking other students with firearms.

Having attended both sub-par state schools (mine was actually the worst in the area, believe it or not) and private schools, I have to conclude that the private school was light years ahead.

In terms of the quality of the individual student, even the least academically accomplished student in the private school could read. RE the state school, while the top students would have done well at any school IMO, the bottom students were effectively illiterate (and there were far too many 'bottom' students). Also state school students sometimes smoked on the school grounds, whereas I never saw such behaviour at my private school.

I will also note that most of the students who went to my state school detested the place, both at the time and with hindsight (including myself). The same was mostly not true at my private school.

In terms of facilities, the private school had clean drinking water and buildings that were renovated fairly regularly. The state school had buildings that were in poor condition and dirty drinking water - not to mention stained, lumpy walls! The school hall in my private school was new and well-maintained, whereas the state school didn't even have a school hall.

The teachers were almost entirely good at my private school, whereas the state school was at best a mixed bag. I frankly learnt very little for several years at my state school - I learnt more by myself than at my state school - whereas every year I made academic progress at my private school. For example, I arrived at my private school in Year 8 with unremarkable grades and a mediocre work ethic, having mostly been left to twist in the wind during my state school years. By the time I graduated, I was one of the school's top students and naturally had a far better work ethic.

RE the parents, yes I agree that the parents at private schools are of a higher calibre. Too many parents in state schools are at best single parents who don't have the necessary time to spend with their children and are at worst outright abusers and criminals (my best friend's stepfather fell into this category).

It's hard for me to comment authoritatively on how much better private schools are at preparing you for university compared to state schools as a whole, but I reckon that had I attended a high school of the quality of my state school, I would have received at best a mediocre OP/ATAR (maybe somewhere around 10/80) and at worst dropped out. As it was, I received a 2/98.5.

If you must send your child to a state school and can't afford an expensive house, be prepared to make long car trips - the state school in your area is unlikely to pass muster.

I agree with comments that parents ought to read to their children before they start school (as mine did) - probably from the age of about 2-3 onwards. I will add that teaching them basic maths is also a good idea.

This is arguably beyond the scope of this discussion, but if your child has a disability but has anywhere near average intelligence (never mind above), do not send them to a special school. It will most likely hamper their development.

EDIT: Another issue with jumping from a sub-par state school to a much better private school is that your child will probably know very few/no people from the private school because the socio-economic crowd is quite different, so they will have to make friends all over again.

Also the class sizes were at least somewhat smaller in my private school than my state school. In my state school class sizes were pushing 30 at times. In my private school they would have been at most around 25, getting smaller as you advanced through grades.

Also you had composite classes in state school, whereas you didn't in private school. That would have helped the younger students, but disadvantaged the older ones.

If you wish to strengthen your child's religious faith, do not send them to a state school. Religion barely features there.
 
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Bomberboyokay

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Why do dogs lick their balls? Because they can. So it all comes down to affordability. If I was affluent and can afford to spend circa $25K annually per child, then I would send my kids to private/grammar schools. But I'm not. IMHO the environment in private schools is better than public schools (facilities, parents, curriculum etc), which enhances the potential in your child.

But I think the best is to buy a house in one of the top public school zones. I rather put my money into upgrading my beautiful house than into private school coffers. There are many top public schools in Melbourne (mainly in eastern suburbs though) such as, University High, Princes Hill, or McKinnon. But houses in top public school zones come at a premium.

I am planning to buy in North Melbourne so my kid can go to University High.

Alternatively I know some parents whom rent out their home, and they rent another place in a top public school zone area just for their kids.

Even better, if your kid can pass the examination for top selective public schools, such as Melbourne high. Or your kid passes the seals test and get chosen for a high performing seals class, separate from normal classes, in a school that provides such a program.

Each to their own. There is always the notion of, you can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
People buying a family-size home in inner Melbourne can afford to put them in a normal private school.
 
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Bomberboyokay

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Theoretically state schools can kick people out, but it has to be for something extremely improbable like, say, attacking other students with firearms.

Having attended both sub-par state schools (mine was actually the worst in the area, believe it or not) and private schools, I have to conclude that the private school was light years ahead.

In terms of the quality of the individual student, even the least academically accomplished student in the private school could read. RE the state school, while the top students would have done well at any school IMO, the bottom students were effectively illiterate (and there were far too many 'bottom' students). Also state school students sometimes smoked on the school grounds, whereas I never saw such behaviour at my private school.

I will also note that most of the students who went to my state school detested the place, both at the time and with hindsight (including myself). The same was mostly not true at my private school.

In terms of facilities, the private school had clean drinking water and buildings that were renovated fairly regularly. The state school had buildings that were in poor condition and dirty drinking water - not to mention stained, lumpy walls! The school hall in my private school was new and well-maintained, whereas the state school didn't even have a school hall.

The teachers were almost entirely good at my private school, whereas the state school was at best a mixed bag. I frankly learnt very little for several years at my state school - I learnt more by myself than at my state school - whereas every year I made academic progress at my private school. For example, I arrived at my private school in Year 8 with unremarkable grades and a mediocre work ethic, having mostly been left to twist in the wind during my state school years. By the time I graduated, I was one of the school's top students and naturally had a far better work ethic.

RE the parents, yes I agree that the parents at private schools are of a higher calibre. Too many parents in state schools are at best single parents who don't have the necessary time to spend with their children and are at worst outright abusers and criminals (my best friend's stepfather fell into this category).

It's hard for me to comment authoritatively on how much better private schools are at preparing you for university compared to state schools as a whole, but I reckon that had I attended a high school of the quality of my state school, I would have received at best a mediocre OP/ATAR (maybe somewhere around 10/80) and at worst dropped out. As it was, I received a 2/98.5.

If you must send your child to a state school and can't afford an expensive house, be prepared to make long car trips - the state school in your area is unlikely to pass muster.

I agree with comments that parents ought to read to their children before they start school (as mine did) - probably from the age of about 2-3 onwards. I will add that teaching them basic maths is also a good idea.

This is arguably beyond the scope of this discussion, but if your child has a disability but has anywhere near average intelligence (never mind above), do not send them to a special school. It will most likely hamper their development.

EDIT: Another issue with jumping from a sub-par state school to a much better private school is that your child will probably know very few/no people from the private school because the socio-economic crowd is quite different, so they will have to make friends all over again.

Also the class sizes were at least somewhat smaller in my private school than my state school. In my state school class sizes were pushing 30 at times. In my private school they would have been at most around 25, getting smaller as you advanced through grades.

Also you had composite classes in state school, whereas you didn't in private school. That would have helped the younger students, but disadvantaged the older ones.

If you wish to strengthen your child's religious faith, do not send them to a state school. Religion barely features there.
At this point in the discussion someone (not necessarily you) will chime in with "If the kid wants to learn, they'll do alright whatever the school". It's complete crap when it's teacher vs disruptives most lessons. Most adults can't function well at work if the boss is always yelling with someone; what the fu** do they expect kids to do? A lot of I Turned Out Alright thinking going on.
 
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Bomberboyokay

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Private schools do better cos they get the best kids. Richer families kids tend to have better genes and have more time to study as they dont have to work part time jobs during high school. And on top of this private schools raid public schools and put the smartest public school kids on partial scholarships.
This makes no sense whatsoever.

What rich families do have is a lifetime of prompt healthcare, eating 5 star mince instead of 3 star, not living in crappily built homes etc etc x thousands of things.

Their genes aren't different.
 

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