Protesters in Sydney

[bunsen burner]

Originally posted by eastaugh36


To the hippies who caused the horses to fall last year or whenecer it was by putting marbles on the ground , I hope you were the ones trampled yesterday you parasitic scum.

I saw this girl on TV who was an organiser of the protests and she said, "Well those people on the horses were protecting the rich and powerful and not protecting us". She had a real chip on her shoulder.

Is it just me, or is that stupidity of the highest level? The forum didn't go to the protesters, the protesters went to the forum. The protesters are trying to sabotage the forum (not the other way around), therefore I thought it logical that the forum members be protected from the protesters.

 

[Bee]

Originally posted by SonOfScray
The Noble Flag

It's only a small bit of bunting,
It's only an old coloured rag.
Yet thousands have died for its honour
And shed their best blood for the Flag.

It's charged with the cross of St Andrew,
Which, of old, Scotland's heroes has led;
It carries the cross of St Patrick,
For which Ireland's bravest have bled.

Joined with these is our old English ensign,
St George's red cross on white field.
Round which, from King Richard to Welllington,
Britons conquer or die, but ne'er yield.

It flutters triumphant o'er ocean,
As free as the winds and the wave;
And bondsmen from shackles unloosened
Neath its shadows no longer are slaves.

It floats over Cyprus and Malta,
O'er Canada, the Indies, Hong Kong;
And Britons, where'er their flag's flying,
Claim the right which to Britons belong.

We hoist it to show our devotion
To our Queen, to our country and laws;
It's the outward and visible emblem
Of advancement and liberty's cause.

You may say it's an old bit of bunting,
You may call it an old coloured rag;
But freedom has made it majestic,
And time has ennobled our Flag.

This is exactly why we should change 'our' flag! That piece of British crap in the corner, devotion to the friggen Monarchy and telling the world we are really still British. For Christ's sake if you wanted to prove why we should be loyal to the flag then you chose the wrong poem! British $hit!

 

[Mr Eagle]

Originally posted by SonOfScray
Yet thousands have died for its honour
And shed their best blood for the Flag.

Nobody sheds blood for a flag. They shed blood for a way of life, for their beliefs and their ideals - the flag is just a convenience. Give an army a purpose and an identifying flag that is pink with purple polka dots, and they'll still fight under it if the cause is one they believe in.

 

[truebelievers]

Originally posted by bunsen burner
Minority eh? Just shows what you know.

Have you not noticed the huge backlash against anything US in this country and all over the world. US imperialism, its foreign policy, its refusal to reign in the war criminal running Israel, and its complete indifference to anything but its own interests has fuelled this feeling (as well as a president with the IQ of a knat).

You seem like a right idealist (read IDIOT). [/B][/QUOTE]


There's nothing wrong with idealism. Cynicism and moral and ethical bankrupcy are the problem.

Couple of questions for you:

1) What is the point of protesting about a heap of different things? All these different 'things' aren't defined and there is no focus. Don't you think that the more things that are protested about, the more watered down they become?[/B][/QUOTE]


No I don't - its the new way of protesting. A few years ago when it was protests over environment only, it was easier to attack. Also the language was easy to assimilate and co-opt as multinationals have done. It's much more difficult to attack many different messages - thus the attacks here which are not very rigorous arguments, just abuse. These groups are a collaboration between unions, activists, greenies, social justice groups and churches with similar ideals - strenth in unity. Far from being stupid the protesters are normally very well organised - check out literature on how the Seattle protests were organised.

2) Regarding globalisation - why do people have a problem with this in the first place, and more importantly, what do you suggest as a solution to fix this 'alleged' problem?[/B][/QUOTE]



Have you not noticed that the gap between the rich and poor is at its worse? Internationalism is not the problem - it's global capitalism which rampantly eats up the world in its pursuit of profit, and treats everything as a commodity including humans - right down to our DNA. As for fixing the problem more equitable distribution of wealth, water and food for every human in the world would be a start. Forty thousand people die each day for lack of water and food when there is more than enough of both of these for us all - this is not inevitable and can be changed. Sureley it's not that difficult? Governement regulation of multinationalss/transnationals for instance as well as spending less on war machines and more on basic services for all people. Ideological change which recognises the intrinsic value of every living thing is more difficult but definately the ideal.


3) People come from all across the world to protest about globalistion. Does anything seem strange about that to you?[/B][/QUOTE]


Not sure what you mean by this. Again there is nothing wrong with internationalism but globalisation has come to represent rampant economic rationalism - not even the old style capitalism.

4) Do you really think anyone of any importance is listening? [/B][/QUOTE]

Not sure what you mean by important. I know there is a distinct swing to the Greens in this country so Australians are listening. Police and the authorities are listening. WTO organisers are listening as they have been changing venues to avoid protests since Seattle - it's not been good publicity for them, and they are forced to and struggle to defend their policies constantly. And Multinationals are listening - have you not noticed the propaganda companies such as Shell have been using in the last few years doing whatever they can to prove they are a clean green and socially responsible company? They lost a lot of money during the international boycotts of their company. Triple line accounting is another example.

PS you can call me an idiot all you like but it's water off a ducks back.

As for being an anarchist - not really, but I do sympathise.

 

[Diego]

Originally posted by bunsen burner
I can only laugh when I see people running around in the Che Guevera shirts who probably don't know anything about him.

The guy was a great wartime leader (of someone else's country as he is Argentine), but that is all. He went into politics under the Castro Govt and helped screw Cuba's economy. He soon discovered that he wasn't a politician and went back to fight some other freedom-fighting war, and was killed in action.

I also have to laugh at Rage Against the Machine as well. I have all their CDs and really like their sound, but they just talk absolute crap. RATM and a lot of their listeners are major victims of uneducated socialism.

All these idealists who run around preaching about stuff that sounds good but can't happen. They should wake up and learn that there is no thing such as Eutopia. If they were true to themselves, they would run around with a sign saying, "the world is fcuked, but we can't do anything about it" - and then jump off a cliff.

I like to refer to him as just Ernesto Guevara. No Che. Che is Argentinean (I should know being one) colloquialism for "Mate". We don't refer to well know aussies as "Mate Crowe or "Mate whoever".

Most of these people forget the fact that he was Argentinean and always will be. He is not Cuban for **** sake!

 

[Diego]

Protesters say seven arrested
SYDNEY|Published: Friday November 15, 2:30 PM



Anti-World Trade Organisation (WTO) protesters said at least seven demonstrators had been arrested by police and were being held in vans at Olympic Park.

Protest organisers said the seven had not been told on what grounds they were being held.

Police said four arrests had been made, but it was not known what charges would be laid.
advertisement

advertisement

No-WTO legal observer Adam Bandt said protesters with banners, drums and other noisy instruments were purposely targeted by police.

"These are not people who were doing anything," he told protesters.

"They've been locked in a van, they've been arrested and they haven't been told what they've been charged with."

Mr Bandt also claimed officers had failed to pass information to the detainees including phone numbers where they could obtain legal advice.

"It seems none of us are safe so we need to keep an eye together," Mr Bandt said.

Protesters were holding a meeting outside the police barricade of the WTO talks to decide on their next step.

They were considering a victory march back to Flemington railway station and holding another street protest in the city later today.

----------------------------------------------


How is this considered a Victory? The cops held them away..so if anything its the cops who won..and since when was this a game? Shows the agenda the protestors had and they were out to antagonise the Police force.

These people are like Collingwood supporters...all jaded and delusional.

 

[SonOfScray]

Mr Eagle / Bee,

the origin of the poem makes no difference - the sentiment behind it can be applied to any nation's flag. I wasn't making a pro British statement, merely displaying what a flag CAN mean to may people. The flag to me represents our way of life, values and ideals so IMO people DID die for our flag. Therefore to burn it in protest is not only spitting in the face of our values and ideals - but also being dishonourable to those who have stood, united as AUstralians and paid the ultimate price.

 

[Bee]

Originally posted by SonOfScray
Mr Eagle / Bee,

the origin of the poem makes no difference - the sentiment behind it can be applied to any nation's flag. I wasn't making a pro British statement, merely displaying what a flag CAN mean to may people. The flag to me represents our way of life, values and ideals so IMO people DID die for our flag. Therefore to burn it in protest is not only spitting in the face of our values and ideals - but also being dishonourable to those who have stood, united as AUstralians and paid the ultimate price.

Okay, so just for you. Tell me does this make you patriotic and proud?

 

[knuckles]

Hell yeah!!!! Rule Brittania!

 

[truebelievers]

Originally posted by bunsen burner
I can only laugh when I see people running around in the Che Guevera shirts who probably don't know anything about him.

The guy was a great wartime leader (of someone else's country as he is Argentine), but that is all. He went into politics under the Castro Govt and helped screw Cuba's economy. He soon discovered that he wasn't a politician and went back to fight some other freedom-fighting war, and was killed in action.

I also have to laugh at Rage Against the Machine as well. I have all their CDs and really like their sound, but they just talk absolute crap. RATM and a lot of their listeners are major victims of uneducated socialism.

All these idealists who run around preaching about stuff that sounds good but can't happen. They should wake up and learn that there is no thing such as Eutopia. If they were true to themselves, they would run around with a sign saying, "the world is fcuked, but we can't do anything about it" - and then jump off a cliff.

The only ones ruining Cuba's economy are they US - It wouldn't deny this that is the intention of the sanctions. Cuba's poor rose up against the rich when they were starving and the mafia was running Cuba. Do you think this was wrong? Cuba has 100% literacy rate and one of the best health care systems in the world. Unlike the US where if you don't have money you don't have health care.

Socialists are normally highly educated, you have to be to rebel against the dominant idealogy which we are all spoonfed from an early age - so I'm not sure where this claim comes from.

 

[SonOfScray]

am i a New Zealander?

 

[bunsen burner]

Originally posted by truebelievers

There's nothing wrong with idealism. Cynicism and moral and ethical bankrupcy are the problem.

Idealism is just that: a pipe dream.

Cynicism and moral and ethical bankrupcy may be a problem, but this is reality and these things can't be fixed.

it was easier to attack.

Possibly because the argument had flaws in it?

It's much more difficult to attack many different messages

And much more difficult to take any notice of, or even adress them.

thus the attacks here which are not very rigorous arguments, just abuse

So if you can't change anything, what's the point? Maybe you should cut your losses and get on with life?

Far from being stupid the protesters are normally very well organised

ideology = impossiblity = waste of time = stupid.

Have you not noticed that the gap between the rich and poor is at its worse?

Yes, but nothing can be done about it.

As for fixing the problem more equitable distribution of wealth, water and food for every human in the world would be a start.

Simple as that is it?

Are you aware that if you took every cent from every person in Australia, totalled it up, and then split it up evenly amongst evryone, that it would only take a short amount of time for the unequity to settle in? The people who were previously poor would lose their portion, and the people who were previously rich would turn their porption into more.

How do you physically split resources such as food and water amongst the world's population. Where would the money come from to build pipes to get this water to parts of Africa?

You are one very naive person.

Forty thousand people die each day for lack of water and food when there is more than enough of both of these for us all - this is not inevitable and can be changed. Sureley it's not that difficult?

Is this for real?

Ideological change which recognises the intrinsic value of every living thing is more difficult but definately the ideal.

More difficult? Try impossible.



It isn't that I don't agree with some of your causes. What I disagree with is that you are going against things that can't be changed. You should grow up and realise that this is how the world works. It is often brutal and unfair, but there are good things as well, and people have to make the most out of them. You obviously don't enjoy life if you have all these hang-ups. I think you would be better off ending the pain.

 

[Bee]

Originally posted by SonOfScray
am i a New Zealander?

No, but that was my point. The Australian flag and New Zealand flag are so similar that a lot of people can't tell them apart. A lot of times overseas, the New Zealand flag has been raised for the Australian flag. We need our own identity.
Oh, and congratulations on getting it was the NZ flag straight off, I bet a few of the posters here didn't.

 

[Diego]

Originally posted by truebelievers

Socialists are normally highly educated, you have to be to rebel against the dominant idealogy which we are all spoonfed from an early age - so I'm not sure where this claim comes from.

Good to see the educated hold a peaceful march. Have to admire these Socialist for their eductated ways.

 

[Mr Eagle]

Originally posted by SonOfScray
so IMO people DID die for our flag.

Which flag? The Blue ensign? Because that's not what a lot of Australians fought behind in the two world wars. Many of them fought under the Union Jack, the red ensign (our previous 'national flag'), or the Navy's white ensign. The current blue design wasn't declared the national flag until 1953. See what I'm getting at? The symbols we fought under were many and varied, to the point where the only real connection between anyone who went to war in the name of Australia was "Australia", rather than an icon like a flag. Things as important as national pride just can't be summarised in a simple flag.

 

[knuckles]

Originally posted by truebelievers


The only ones ruining Cuba's economy are they US - It wouldn't deny this that is the intention of the sanctions. Cuba's poor rose up against the rich when they were starving and the mafia was running Cuba. Do you think this was wrong? Cuba has 100% literacy rate and one of the best health care systems in the world. Unlike the US where if you don't have money you don't have health care.

Socialists are normally highly educated, you have to be to rebel against the dominant idealogy which we are all spoonfed from an early age - so I'm not sure where this claim comes from.

Wrong and not too sharp. Castro rose up aginst a corrupt government. The poor now are barely better off, but they can read, write and have access to medical care- one of the best in the world is such a brain dead comment. Better than nothing though, barely. Suspect you have brainwashed by another idealogy. One of the best health care systems in the world....ffs
Castro is the very thing he said he would replace. But who would dare argue? Not as if the Cubans have a democracy or anything, nor freedom of speech.
Ask any Cuban who has escaped to the US what they think of Castro.

Havanna is nice though. Love the ole Chevys

 

[SonOfScray]

originally posted by Bee

No, but that was my point. The Australian flag and New Zealand flag are so similar that a lot of people can't tell them apart. A lot of times overseas, the New Zealand flag has been raised for the Australian flag. We need our own identity.

Agreed - I am not a republican by any means but do agree that the Autsralian identity needs to be defined and not consistently ridiculed, as it so often is. Whether that is achieved at a personal level or at a national level is yet to be seen.

A change of flag to say, the Blue Southern Cross, would be a symbolic shift in our quest for identity. That flag - despite its strong connection with the unions - tells a very vivid story and holds true to Australia today. It was the first time Australian's of all corners of the globe stood united in the call for justice and the traditional "fair go". Will that appease the masses?

The true Australian identity is relative to the indiviual - australia means so many things to so many different people. There are people who are proud of their nations heritage. There are people who despise our nation's heritage. Either way not everyone will be happy as a whole so I would suggest the quest for personal identity is a more worthwhile challenge.


What does this have to do with the Sydney protests? nothing on the surface lol Maybe with a new direction and better education - we won't see Sheep like these people are destroying something that they should hold dear.

 

[bunsen burner]

originall posted by truebeliever
As for fixing the problem more equitable distribution of wealth, water and food for every human in the world would be a start.
Forty thousand people die each day for lack of water and food when there is more than enough of both of these for us all - this is not inevitable and can be changed. Sureley it's not that difficult? Governement regulation of multinationalss/transnationals for instance as well as spending less on war machines and more on basic services for all people.

How?

A few more questions (because you obviously haven't asked them to yourself):

1) How can you stop people from making more money than others?

2) How could you enforce this across international borders?

3) How can we physically distribute water and resources for food across the world evenly? I would imagine that it would be rather expensive to build pipelines all across the world

4) What makes you think that every person deserves the same regardless of how much they put in? Do you think some people should get a free ride?

5) Hypothetically, if all the above could be achieved, how can people be stopped from being greedy?

6) Are you aware of basic economic theory that has had it's place in society from day 1? You know - the barter system and laws of demand and supply.

7) Are you aware that communism has broken down?

 

[Mr Eagle]

Originally posted by SonOfScray
The true Australian identity is relative to the indiviual - australia means so many things to so many different people.

AMEN, brother!

 

[Lestat]

Are you aware that if you took every cent from every person in Australia, totalled it up, and then split it up evenly amongst evryone, that it would only take a short amount of time for the unequity to settle in? The people who were previously poor would lose their portion, and the people who were previously rich would turn their porption into more.

That is utter crap. How did you come to this conclusion. Have you tried it before. Sounds like your speaking out of experience. Thats just capitalist crap your fed so you don't feel to guilty about being a power hungry pathetic soul that measures everything by material success.

Did you know that 55% per cent of the world population don't have access to clean water, clean f**ken water. Here we go to a tap, turn it and the **** comes out in litres, that simple. Can you believe that we are a minority, only 45% of the whole world can do this. Pretty Pathetic don't u think.

Now it gets worst. did you know that 50% of the worlds sick at this very moment, are ill from water-born diseases. So in other words, give everyone clean water, and the worlds sick will be reduced by 50%, just like that.

Now how much do you think it would cost every one of us, from the developed world, those who have clean water, how much would it cost to supply the rest with clean water. Just give me a ball park figure, I'm not really to sure of the amount myself.

My point is that we are all fed all this crap, about how world poverty is a major problem, we cant do this, or we can do that. Its all crap. Lets not be fooled. People all over the world are living in poverty because there made to live in poverty. Basics of capitalism, the poor uphold the rich. The masses do the work, while the Rich organise and benefit.

All these charity groups are just a front, an appearance to the rest of the world and the 'average' citizen like you and me, that something is being done about it. But lets look in the mirror, and be honest. If we really wanted to do something about it, we would. If we really wanted to eradicate world poverty we would.

The world spends 857 Billion dollars a year on arms. So lets all be honest, the reason world poverty exists, is because we WANT it to exist. If we didn't, then we would demand that our governments not spend so much on arms, and start feeding these people. But we don't really care. Its just something good to say at the dinner table, so that people think your caring and have a good heart.

Colonialism has spent 4 hundred years raping Africa's resources, then we have the gaul to blame them for there problems. Unbelievable. I think we all need to take a really good hard look at ourselves, and i don't mean countries, governments or organisations. I think this starts at an individual level. (and yes, that includes myself too ).

Well thats my outburst for the day . How are we all doing.

 

[bunsen burner]

Originally posted by Lestat


That is utter crap. How did you come to this conclusion. Have you tried it before. Sounds like your speaking out of experience. Thats just capitalist crap your fed so you don't feel to guilty about being a power hungry pathetic soul that measures everything by material success.

Did you know that 55% per cent of the world population don't have access to clean water, clean f**ken water. Here we go to a tap, turn it and the **** comes out in litres, that simple. Can you believe that we are a minority, only 45% of the whole world can do this. Pretty Pathetic don't u think.

Now it gets worst. did you know that 50% of the worlds sick at this very moment, are ill from water-born diseases. So in other words, give everyone clean water, and the worlds sick will be reduced by 50%, just like that.

Now how much do you think it would cost every one of us, from the developed world, those who have clean water, how much would it cost to supply the rest with clean water. Just give me a ball park figure, I'm not really to sure of the amount myself.

My point is that we are all fed all this crap, about how world poverty is a major problem, we cant do this, or we can do that. Its all crap. Lets not be fooled. People all over the world are living in poverty because there made to live in poverty. Basics of capitalism, the poor uphold the rich. The masses do the work, while the Rich organise and benefit.

All these charity groups are just a front, an appearance to the rest of the world and the 'average' citizen like you and me, that something is being done about it. But lets look in the mirror, and be honest. If we really wanted to do something about it, we would. If we really wanted to eradicate world poverty we would.

The world spends 857 Billion dollars a year on arms. So lets all be honest, the reason world poverty exists, is because we WANT it to exist. If we didn't, then we would demand that our governments not spend so much on arms, and start feeding these people. But we don't really care. Its just something good to say at the dinner table, so that people think your caring and have a good heart.

Colonialism has spent 4 hundred years raping Africa's resources, then we have the gaul to blame them for there problems. Unbelievable. I think we all need to take a really good hard look at ourselves, and i don't mean countries, governments or organisations. I think this starts at an individual level. (and yes, that includes myself too ).

Well thats my outburst for the day . How are we all doing.

Typical crap from an idealist. You quote all the facts, but never come up with any viable ways how this can be fixed.

Is there a chance that the reason why is because you know there is no solution, but will do anything to avoid this fact because it will compromise your existence?

 

[Au_Blue#24]

Lestat, f your going to throw around stats like that , at least quote where they originate from !!

 

[bunsen burner]

Originally posted by Au_Blue#24
Lestat, f your going to throw around stats like that , at least quote where they originate from !!

How about he or she come out with some viable solutions, or shut the fcuk up.

I'd actually debate some of those facts, but I'm more interested in laughing at his/her preposterous idealism.

 

[Lestat]

Typical crap from an idealist. You quote all the facts, but never come up with any viable ways how this can be fixed.

Trust me, im definately not an idealist. I'd like to think of myself as a realist.

And yeah, your right. I don't come up with any viable ways to how this can be fixed, cause i don't know of any. I don't claim to have the solution to all our problems, heck I'm not sure if i have the solution to any of the problems.

But, you have to admit there's a problem before it can be solved.


Just a small idea I've had. Lets forget bout the whole big picture. Lets take it one problem at a time. Would it take much to supply the world with clean water. Is that impossible. Am i being an idealist, thinking that this can be achieved??

 

[Lestat]

Lestat, f your going to throw around stats like that , at least quote where they originate from !!

Human Rights Amnesty / United Nations.


Go to the web sites, its all there.