Putting season 2020 in perspective

[Econopower]

No, no, I got your point just fine. You don't think we should be as angry or frustrated as we are, or we should temper our anger or frustration in the way that we type in what is a mostly anonymous discussion forum to match your personal arbitrary level of emotional involvement. The example of kids sport, however you intended it, serves to belittle people who are passionate about their football team. People who care. We shouldn't get so worked up, it's just a game, other teams are better than us so just enjoy the ride.

People vent on an online discussion forum after a frustrating loss. Welcome to being a sports fan in the 21st century. Riding in on your high horse and telling us how to enjoy following our football team isn't particularly endearing. All sports fandom is inherently ridiculous. We dress up in the colours of a team we've never played for featuring a group of players whom we don't know while they kick a ball around an oval. We scream, we cheer, we boo, we cry. It's ridiculous. The only thing more ridiculous than passionate sports fandom is going to a long established discussion forum full of those fans and telling people to tone it down.

This board, by any measure, has quite a high level of analysis and discussion about football. Certainly higher than anywhere else i've been online or in real life, but that comes part and parcel with the passion that leads to emotional online outbursts. You don't get one without the other, because if people didn't care, they wouldn't put the effort into studying and trying to understanding the game.

I don’t think asking people to temper their abuse of players and officials on a public forum is belittling. I’m hardly arguing for a no criticism policy. Just civility.

I may be wrong about this but I suspect that aggressive language and behaviour crowds out more measured behaviour, discouraging some types of people from participating. Think of it like a self selection or even adverse selection problem.

I agree with you that the Port board is not the worst of it, thank God. But some of the stuff in the Sack Hinkley thread, as an example, goes too far - at least in my admittedly biased opinion.

So, I ask you where do people go who love their team and want to talk about it, but don’t want to get into flame wars, go?

Once upon a time I was very closely involved in state and federal politics. And there were blogs that I was a regular commentator on. But the abusive side just became exhausting after a while.

So I’m all for caring, but there are plenty of things I’m deeply passionate about, and analyse and research rigorously, that I try to correspond about in a measured way. The idea that you can’t have one without the other doesn’t just doesn’t sit well with me.

Take this conversation. I’ve actually rather enjoyed it. We don’t agree on many things but have largely avoided ad hominem attacks and mostly tried to address each other’s points. And that is how it should be. Constructive disagreement between two people who care.

 

[TeeKray]

Bassett has said that we won't be changing our game style against most teams, but that we'll probably make some adjustments against Geelong based on the way that they play.

People say 'Why didn't they make those adjustments during the game?', but really, why would you bother? The players were flat and weren't bringing the intensity to the contest that is required to win regardless of the tactics, and any changes would have just given Scott an opportunity to come up with a counter to what we did in any finals match.

This is what Dal Santo said about it:

“You listen to Patrick Dangerfield and Tom Hawkins post-game, they spoke about their preparation coming into the game, they knew exactly how they were going to work their way through that initial defence, the forward press from Port."

And then Mooney:

“The message should’ve come out at some stage - ‘You know what Tom Clurey, don’t worry about the system, you just go man-on-man, everyone else can play up in front.’”

Go look at the Brisbane board and their St Kilda preview thread - they are saying that they have the same issues with the high press. It's the same tropes - if the intensity drops off, they start making mistakes etc.

We should be looking at winning all 5 games pretty easily. My pass mark is a prelim final, which was the same pass mark I set for Brisbane last year. But don't for one second think this means we just shoot for par. We should always be trying to win the flag.

Incidentally...last year, Geelong beat Richmond 104-37, then when finals intensity came along in a prelim final, Richmond won 85-66.

The destruction of our percentage has to be taken into account. It could be the difference between 2nd and 3rd or 4th and 5th and have a material impact on our finals chances. We didn't necessarily need to win but we needed to fight that game out way better than we did, no question.

 

[Harlott]

The destruction of our percentage has to be taken into account. It could be the difference between 2nd and 3rd or 4th and 5th and have a material impact on our finals chances. We didn't necessarily need to win but we needed to fight that game out way better than we did, no question.

We lacked the required fight right from the very beginning. The response this week will be interesting. Would hope to see something different to previous years. My belief is we’re a more resilient group this year but that could be shattered this Sat. Having said that it sometimes feels like both players and coach are slow learners.

 

[El_Scorcho]

I don’t think asking people to temper their abuse of players and officials on a public forum is belittling. I’m hardly arguing for a no criticism policy. Just civility.

I may be wrong about this but I suspect that aggressive language and behaviour crowds out more measured behaviour, discouraging some types of people from participating. Think of it like a self selection or even adverse selection problem.

I agree with you that the Port board is not the worst of it, thank God. But some of the stuff in the Sack Hinkley thread, as an example, goes too far - at least in my admittedly biased opinion.

So, I ask you where do people go who love their team and want to talk about it, but don’t want to get into flame wars, go?

Once upon a time I was very closely involved in state and federal politics. And there were blogs that I was a regular commentator on. But the abusive side just became exhausting after a while.

So I’m all for caring, but there are plenty of things I’m deeply passionate about, and analyse and research rigorously, that I try to correspond about in a measured way. The idea that you can’t have one without the other doesn’t just doesn’t sit well with me.

Take this conversation. I’ve actually rather enjoyed it. We don’t agree on many things but have largely avoided ad hominem attacks and mostly tried to address each other’s points. And that is how it should be. Constructive disagreement between two people who care.

Go to facebook if you'd like friendly discussion with no depth, but it's not very satisfying.

Port are in an unusual situation where over the last few years, we have regularly lost games on selection night or in the coaches box despite having a coach who should have been moved in years earlier. It's incredibly frustrating to see the same sort of tactical disasters cause the same sorts of losses. People spend a lot of their time and money supporting this team and have been emotionally invested since they were children in most cases. The Sack Hinkley thread is ultimately a venting thread.

My advice is to accept that people are allowed to be frustrated, maybe stay out of gameday threads and review threads in the first 24 hours after a bad loss if you really can't handle a bit of angry venting.

 

[El_Scorcho]

The destruction of our percentage has to be taken into account. It could be the difference between 2nd and 3rd or 4th and 5th and have a material impact on our finals chances. We didn't necessarily need to win but we needed to fight that game out way better than we did, no question.

Yep. Despite the performance we were just 4 goals down at 3/4 time. To allow them to pile on another 6 on top in the last quarter to massacre our percentage was terrible.

 

[Duck Farmer]

I can see Econopower and Janus becoming BFFs.

 

[SupportMe]

Yep. Despite the performance we were just 4 goals down at 3/4 time. To allow them to pile on another 6 on top in the last quarter to massacre our percentage was terrible.

See, this is why people are concerned. Port *were* trying and competing to only be 4 goals down - people watching with me thought Geelong would drop and Port would get closer. They hadn’t watched Port like I have.

A purely effort-based ethos breeds diminishing returns. Near enough is not acceptable and breeds mediocrity.

We’ve had I believe one late season capitulation a season for the past 3-5 years. I do not want to see this team pumped by *rolls dice* Sydney when Top 2 is up for grabs.

 

[Granny Duurs is Lovely]

Go to facebook if you'd like friendly discussion with no depth, but it's not very satisfying.

Port are in an unusual situation where over the last few years, we have regularly lost games on selection night or in the coaches box despite having a coach who should have been moved in years earlier. It's incredibly frustrating to see the same sort of tactical disasters cause the same sorts of losses. People spend a lot of their time and money supporting this team and have been emotionally invested since they were children in most cases. The Sack Hinkley thread is ultimately a venting thread.

My advice is to accept that people are allowed to be frustrated, maybe stay out of gameday threads and review threads in the first 24 hours after a bad loss if you really can't handle a bit of angry venting.

This board isn't just a place for venting though, I for one particularly appreciate a balance of friendly and unfriendly in depth discussion. It's why I do exactly what you say and avoid this board for the first 48 hours or so after a loss most of the time because otherwise the 'sack hinkley' discussion seeps into every topic.

The issue I see is that anyone who dares to offer a positive view is aggressively shouted down by a large number of prominent members of the board. It's become a hive of negativity at times (especially after losses) and the balance is very much out of whack in my view.

It kind of feels like a lot of posters have stockholm syndrome with the club being a disappointment. They won't accept evidence to the opposite because it's not what they've come to know. A loss to Geelong suddenly justifies that we can't back up wins despite also proclaiming that we'd lose to Melbourne and the Bulldogs as games that we should win but never do.

 

[Interstater]

 

[El_Scorcho]

This board isn't just a place for venting though, I for one particularly appreciate a balance of friendly and unfriendly in depth discussion. It's why I do exactly what you say and avoid this board for the first 48 hours or so after a loss most of the time because otherwise the 'sack hinkley' discussion seeps into every topic.

The issue I see is that anyone who dares to offer a positive view is aggressively shouted down by a large number of prominent members of the board. It's become a hive of negativity at times (especially after losses) and the balance is very much out of whack in my view.

It kind of feels like a lot of posters have stockholm syndrome with the club being a disappointment. They won't accept evidence to the opposite because it's not what they've come to know. A loss to Geelong suddenly justifies that we can't back up wins despite also proclaiming that we'd lose to Melbourne and the Bulldogs as games that we should win but never do.

This is a fair comment, but the club has absolutely destroyed any faith the supporters had over a number of years, doubling down on poor decisions and shirking accountability for failures (or in some cases not even acknowledging that failures existed). Everyone is going to require a different level of consistent performance to gain that trust back.

I am positive about the improvement we've made this year, but I still don't feel like I can trust us to show up in big games, and that's because we've been let down time and time again over the last half a decade. That feeling of doubt has been ingrained into me over time. It's a coping mechanism to deal with a disappointing football team. Ultimately though i'd love to be totally wrong and for us to become a consistent, hard nosed team, but then a game like last week happens and I feel totally shattered again.

You can't talk about Port's performance without talking about the coach given his contract situation and our record since he arrived. Any chatter will naturally gravitate that way. Ultimately the balance is out of whack because of a sustained 5 year period of the club failing to address it's problems. People are negative because being a Port supporter has been a negative experience over the last 5 years. A little bit of hope followed by crushing disappointment, rinse and repeat. Then being told that if we don't want to be so disappointed, lower our expectations, as if we're children without the ability to comprehend what the club does.

We're 12 games into a new season, we've certainly apparently sorted out a couple of key strategic issues, but trust takes a while to win back. My expectation is that we will play to our potential, that the players will bring maximum effort, and that we will not lose games with obvious selection mistakes or by failure to act in the coaches box. If we bring those things every week, we'll either win the flag or be beaten by a brilliant football team who were too good for us on the day. I still think that success is well within our reach in 2020.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Part of the reason people get so frustrated is because we know the team is good enough if they can put it together. They know we can and should be a flag threat, but they don't trust the team to live up to that potential. For me it's the total opposite of what Econopower said in the OP about tempering our expectations because our list isn't quite there. I don't see our list as inherently less capable of winning the flag than the likes of Geelong, West Coast or Richmond.

Econopower can enjoy the season for what it is because he doesn't rate the list as premiership ready. I get riled up because I don't see a team who are significantly better than us running around, just teams that are better organised.

 

[Janus]

Part of the reason people get so frustrated is because we know the team is good enough if they can put it together. They know we can and should be a flag threat, but they don't trust the team to live up to that potential. For me it's the total opposite of what Econopower said in the OP about tempering our expectations because our list isn't quite there. I don't see our list as inherently less capable of winning the flag than the likes of Geelong, West Coast or Richmond.

Econopower can enjoy the season for what it is because he doesn't rate the list as premiership ready. I get riled up because I don't see a team who are significantly better than us running around, just teams that are better organised.

I think by the time finals come around you’ll know if it’s premiership ready or not. The list is capable, but Houston and Ladhams have proven to me that there is one thing missing, and that’s the resolute desire to win a flag at all costs.

I’ll make a call right now and say that Houston won’t play again this year.

 

[El_Scorcho]

I think by the time finals come around you’ll know if it’s premiership ready or not. The list is capable, but Houston and Ladhams have proven to me that there is one thing missing, and that’s the resolute desire to win a flag at all costs.

I’ll make a call right now and say that Houston won’t play again this year.

I hope you're right, because it probably means we're in red hot form and a spot doesn't open up.

Also agree that this incident says an awful lot about our mindset, which also manifested itself in the Geelong game. Hopefully the suspensions are a wake up call and we use the final 5 weeks to properly steel ourselves.

 

[Econopower]

Go to facebook if you'd like friendly discussion with no depth, but it's not very satisfying.

Port are in an unusual situation where over the last few years, we have regularly lost games on selection night or in the coaches box despite having a coach who should have been moved in years earlier. It's incredibly frustrating to see the same sort of tactical disasters cause the same sorts of losses. People spend a lot of their time and money supporting this team and have been emotionally invested since they were children in most cases. The Sack Hinkley thread is ultimately a venting thread.

My advice is to accept that people are allowed to be frustrated, maybe stay out of gameday threads and review threads in the first 24 hours after a bad loss if you really can't handle a bit of angry venting.

Are we really in such an unusual position?

Almost every team’s board is full of exactly the same stuff!

Game day and review threads that exaggerate the meaning of wins and losses. Blaming losses on selection, tactical and umpiring mistakes. Trolling the fans of one’s biggest rivals on a general AFL thread. Sack the coach threads when said coach has not delivered sustained success within a few years of being appointed. Tribunal, umpiring and media threads implying bias against said team. Draft and trading threads overstating value and potential. Roast threads when the previous target of inflated optimism inevitably disappoints.

All of this is natural, understandable, fun and sometimes even right. But original it is not.

Let’s face it, the lot of supporters is to only really be happy when we are miserable

 

[Econopower]

Part of the reason people get so frustrated is because we know the team is good enough if they can put it together. They know we can and should be a flag threat, but they don't trust the team to live up to that potential. For me it's the total opposite of what Econopower said in the OP about tempering our expectations because our list isn't quite there. I don't see our list as inherently less capable of winning the flag than the likes of Geelong, West Coast or Richmond.

Econopower can enjoy the season for what it is because he doesn't rate the list as premiership ready. I get riled up because I don't see a team who are significantly better than us running around, just teams that are better organised.

I do agree with this. If you think we are or could be as good as anyone with more organisation then your expectations will be higher and you will be more disappointed when we don’t win.

GDIL is right though that the negativity about Hinkley in particular feels like it seeps into every discussion, even when it starts out about something different.

 

[EskimoPAFC]

I do agree with this. If you think we are or could be as good as anyone with more organisation then your expectations will be higher and you will be more disappointed when we don’t win.

GDIL is right though that the negativity about Hinkley in particular feels like it seeps into every discussion, even when it starts out about something different.

I do think a fair bit of this is due to the decisions the club took in 2019. Even when we were failing in 2018 and earlier the animosity wasn't anywhere near as bad.

Going with no-captains, horrible selections that let down developing players, repeated low effort performances, and constant lying and spin from the administration generated a lot of the hate that is seen now. The club was split apart last year and since the season ended they've been doing what they can to make it right. For me I like a lot of what I've seen in the past 10 months, but I can also accept we aren't there yet.

 

[Interstater]

I do think a fair bit of this is due to the decisions the club took in 2019. Even when we were failing in 2018 and earlier the animosity wasn't anywhere near as bad.

Going with no-captains, horrible selections that let down developing players, repeated low effort performances, and constant lying and spin from the administration generated a lot of the hate that is seen now. The club was split apart last year and since the season ended they've been doing what they can to make it right. For me I like a lot of what I've seen in the past 10 months, but I can also accept we aren't there yet.

Here is what I suspect has happened:
- after the Richmond game the CEO signed Ken to 1 + 3 years but only the coaches and players were told
- the Geelong game happened with the warm glow that everyone was safe in their positions
- the expected backlash after the Geelong game prompted the CEO to get on the blower to a mate OS and get them to manage the socials

I guess we will know about Feb/March next year.

 

[TeeKray]

Are we really in such an unusual position?

Almost every team’s board is full of exactly the same stuff!

Game day and review threads that exaggerate the meaning of wins and losses. Blaming losses on selection, tactical and umpiring mistakes. Trolling the fans of one’s biggest rivals on a general AFL thread. Sack the coach threads when said coach has not delivered sustained success within a few years of being appointed. Tribunal, umpiring and media threads implying bias against said team. Draft and trading threads overstating value and potential. Roast threads when the previous target of inflated optimism inevitably disappoints.

All of this is natural, understandable, fun and sometimes even right. But original it is not.

Let’s face it, the lot of supporters is to only really be happy when we are miserable

We are in a different position because we are one of the least successful clubs in the AFL competition over the last 13 years.

We also have a coach who has been in his position longer than every other coach in the league except Chris Scott, Alastair Clarkson, John Longmire, Damien Hardwick and Nathan Buckley - the worst of whom is Buckley who has made a GF and another PF the last 2 years, the rest have won premierships.

The angst is built up over a long period of supporting a poorly performing football club.

 

[Econopower]

We are in a different position because we are one of the least successful clubs in the AFL competition over the last 13 years.

We also have a coach who has been in his position longer than every other coach in the league except Chris Scott, Alastair Clarkson, John Longmire, Damien Hardwick and Nathan Buckley - the worst of whom is Buckley who has made a GF and another PF the last 2 years, the rest have won premierships.

The angst is built up over a long period of supporting a poorly performing football club.

We are in a different position because we are one of the least successful clubs in the AFL competition over the last 13 years.

We also have a coach who has been in his position longer than every other coach in the league except Chris Scott, Alastair Clarkson, John Longmire, Damien Hardwick and Nathan Buckley - the worst of whom is Buckley who has made a GF and another PF the last 2 years, the rest have won premierships.

The angst is built up over a long period of supporting a poorly performing football club.

Look, as I have said a few times now, I would have let Ken go 2-3 seasons ago. But we didn’t and now we are top of the table, with the second best percentage, and a final run of games to come against lowly ranked opposition.

The performance against Geelong was dreadful but the overreactions have been spectacular. Every team’s form ebbs and flows during the season but so far ours has less than most. We are in this season up to our eyeballs. So save the melts until the season is done.

 

[PowerLil]

I do think a fair bit of this is due to the decisions the club took in 2019. Even when we were failing in 2018 and earlier the animosity wasn't anywhere near as bad.

Going with no-captains, horrible selections that let down developing players, repeated low effort performances, and constant lying and spin from the administration generated a l

Here is what I suspect has happened:
- after the Richmond game the CEO signed Ken to 1 + 3 years but only the coaches and players were told
- the Geelong game happened with the warm glow that everyone was safe in their positions
- the expected backlash after the Geelong game prompted the CEO to get on the blower to a mate OS and get them to manage the socials

I guess we will know about Feb/March next year.

I hope you are wrong more than anything I've ever hoped for.

 

[Econopower]

I do think a fair bit of this is due to the decisions the club took in 2019. Even when we were failing in 2018 and earlier the animosity wasn't anywhere near as bad.

Going with no-captains, horrible selections that let down developing players, repeated low effort performances, and constant lying and spin from the administration generated a lot of the hate that is seen now. The club was split apart last year and since the season ended they've been doing what they can to make it right. For me I like a lot of what I've seen in the past 10 months, but I can also accept we aren't there yet.

We certainly aren’t there yet and it will take more years yet I suspect.

Assuming we don’t win the flag this year, and then fall back next year, which would be my forecast, I think Ken will go at that point.

We will then see whether a new coach can find any more success with what will be a very different core list.

 

[VineValerian]

Very hard to perspectivise the 2020 season until a fair while afterwards, given all that has happened.