Fixture Putting the fix in fixture

[z547043]

Surely it is realtive to your opponent.

Playing 12 games at a venue when your opponent plays 8 games you are only 1.5X as familiar, this is effectively neutral compared to the real home ground advantage which is when teams are often 10X more familiar.

Geelong have 9 home games at Cat Park, in all 9 they are 9X more familiar with the ground than their opponents.

Collingwood have 1, Richmond 1, Essendon, Carlton, Melbourne and Hawthorn have 0 home games where they are 9X more familiar than their opponent.

So it actually seems Geelong fans are taking the nonsense arbritrary position where they think playing 6 vs 8 or 9 is not effectively neutral (especially when compared to 9 vs 1).

Correct. Which is what I have said all along. I haven’t disputed our significant home ground advantage when playing at GMHBA, I’ve merely pointed out that we are disadvantaged playing home games against big Melbourne clubs at the G, who enjoy a benefit by virtue of having a large fan base. Which is originally what OP was about. It is probably not to the same extent, but it still exists and it becomes more pronounced at finals time when it matters most and when our home ground advantage is eroded.

And no it’s not nonsense, it is all on a scale. A home ground advantage nearly always exists IMO. And when a club can guarantee 15k of their fans seats at an away game due to backdoor deals, this is one of the many factors that erode an opposition’s home ground advantage, along with familiarity to the ground, travel, etc. But, if you want to call it a neutral game, go right ahead, like I said before I respectfully disagree that it isn’t.

 

[doppleganger]

Correct. Which is what I have said all along. I haven’t disputed our significant home ground advantage when playing at GMHBA, I’ve merely pointed out that we are disadvantaged playing home games against big Melbourne clubs at the G, who enjoy a benefit. Which is originally what OP was about.

The OP is a SA whinger who thinks that getting 13 games at AO, 11 with full home advantage, aint enough of a leg-up...they should also only play away games at the G.

It is probably not to the same extent, but it still exists and it becomes more pronounced at finals time when it matters most and when our home ground advantage is eroded.
And no it’s not nonsense, it is all on a scale. A home ground advantage nearly always exists IMO. And when a club can guarantee 15k of their fans seats at an away game, this is one of the many factors that erode an opposition’s home ground advantage, along with familiarity to the ground, travel, etc.

That is the point...Geelong's games at the G are on the scale closer to neutral than a true away game.

Say full home ground is worth 12 points - that is your Brisbane at the Gabba, Geelong Cat Park - where you have a 9X ground familiarity, 90% crowd support etc.

Essendon v Geelong at the G is worth just 1 or 2 points to Essendon - as ground familiarity is just 1.3, crowd is around 60% and no travel.

1 or 2 points compared to 12 points is your scale, on the advantage / disadvantage scale they are very close to a neutral game.

 

[Captivating]

The biggest home ground advantage remains interstate games.
The second biggest is GMHBA as the Cats get to train on the ground they play on.
Third is ground familiarity - playing lots of games at a venue regardless of whether its a home game or an away game.

 

[Truetiger]

Are rounds 21 and 22 this year going to be neutral games for Richmond? Played at a stadium you play home games at. I don’t think there is an arbitrary figure or number of games that you can put on it.

two games at marvel stadium in a row. That hurts lol.

 

[Whiskers]

Ok let’s settle this properly on familiarity of a ground. Please bear with me. I’ll even consider how we get a big home ground advantage compared to other vic sides.

I’ll use a points/% system.

Fair enough if you play an away game at an interstate venue you get 100% advantage which will be 10 points.

We play 9 games at GMHBA.
100% advantage = 90

Now I’ll be fair and say our games at the MCG are not at the same disadvantage. So we won’t lose many points with the familiarity.

We play Collingwood twice and Richmond once at the G. They play the G about 14 times to our 6. So that’s roughly 60% advantageous.
That means losing 6 points.
So 6x3= 18 we are now +72 in the advantage stakes.

We play Essendon, Carlton and Hawthorn at the MCG. Even less an advantage for them. They play about 9 games at the G, we play 6. So that’s a 30% disadvantage.
3x3=9
Our advantage is down to +63.
Ok we are well up with GMHBA and MCG.

Marvel, different story. We are less familiar with this ground. We play dogs and saints there.
That’s about an 80% advantage to them with their 14 games.
So 8x2=16
Our advantage is now +47

We play 5 interstate so that’s 100% disadvantage
5x10= 50
We now have a net disadvantage of -3

See I used all the measures. Big home ground advantage, not so much for the MCG sides. Yet we still came out on the negative.

Let’s see how Collingwood go.
MCG v interstate x5 = 50
Interstate games x5 =-50
Marvel v dogs and roos 80% disadvantage = -16

Marvel v lions. Pies only play 3 times there so that’s 30% advantage. So only 3 points here, not a big advantage. So it’s +3

MCG v cats x2 just 60% advantage = +12

MCG games v blues, bombers and hawks. Due to familiarity that’s about 30% advantageous. There’s 5 games in that.
So 3x5=15

All in all that adds up to +14

It’s a big advantage to Collingwood and that is taking into account how often they play neutral games and how they don’t have as big of a home ground advantage as others including us. Yet they still come out on top.

Add in crowd support and the advantage is even bigger again.

 

[doppleganger]

Ok let’s settle this properly on familiarity of a ground.

Marvel v lions. Pies only play 3 times there so that’s 30% advantage. So only 3 points here, not a big advantage. So it’s +3

Lions play at Marvel 4 times, Collingwood 3...yet you come up with advantage Collingwood on ground familiarity??

Similarly, team like Freo and Sydney play 3 games at the G. Why dont you take that into account and adjust the ground familiarity?

There are people who actual track venue performance as part of their models, suggest you check em out...but be prepared for the myth of the Geelong MCG disadvantage to be put to bed.

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

Waaaaah!

Geelong’s ground is narrower than other grounds which also have varying dimensions.

Waaaaah!

 

[Whiskers]

Lions play at Marvel 4 times, Collingwood 3...yet you come up with advantage Collingwood on ground familiarity??

Similarly, team like Freo and Sydney play 3 games at the G. Why dont you take that into account and adjust the ground familiarity?

There are people who actual track venue performance as part of their models, suggest you check em out...but be prepared for the myth of the Geelong MCG disadvantage to be put to bed.

Ok fair point on the lions one. Swings it from a +3 to a -2.
Yes the swans and Freo play the G 3 times. I can adjust that from 100% advantage to 80%.
You still have an overall advantage and I was doing my best to be generous.
Freo and Sydney hardly ever play at the G, this year is a jump for them. Plus with the lions, whilst familiarity is not a factor at marvel, let’s be honest it’s not a lions advantage when you factor in travel and crowd.

I can track venue performance, but performance is not the discussion at all. That’s something completely different. We perform well at most venues including the G so I don’t think I’m unprepared for that.

 

[doppleganger]

You still have an overall advantage and I was doing my best to be generous.

Please...you have games at Geelong where Geelong is 9X more familiar as a +10.

But then a game at at the G where you are only 1.3X unfamiliar as a -3

Doing your best to be generous to Geelong, I agree.

Plus with the lions, whilst familiarity is not a factor at marvel, let’s be honest it’s not a lions advantage when you factor in travel and crowd.

You could say exactly the same with the Collingwood advantage games when we play Ess, Carl and Haw at the G as the away team.

But again, despite having a familiarity advantage of just 1.5X against Hawthorn and Hawks have home crowd, you give that +3 to Pies.

Why is 9X familiar worth 10 points but 1.5X familiar worth 3 points??

I can track venue performance, but performance is not the discussion at all. That’s something completely different. We perform well at most venues including the G so I don’t think I’m unprepared for that.

The point was is there any ground advantage.

Geelong at Cat Park has a huge home ground advantage, because teams only ever play 1 single game their, and you get barely any opposition crowds in.

Geelong at the G is basically a neutral game, Geelong face a minor familiarity disadvantage ranging from - 1.3X to 2.3X - and face no travel issues and are able to get 10s of thousands of Cats fans in attendance

If Geelong at Cat Park is a +10 ground advantage, Geelong at the G is a -1 against Essendon/Hawks and -2 against Pies/Tigers....and that is being generous.

 

[Whiskers]

Please...you have games at Geelong where Geelong is 9X more familiar as a +10.

But then a game at at the G where you are only 1.3X unfamiliar as a -3

Doing your best to be generous to Geelong, I agree.

You could say exactly the same with the Collingwood advantage games when we play Ess, Carl and Haw at the G as the away team.

But again, despite having a familiarity advantage of just 1.5X against Hawthorn and Hawks have home crowd, you give that +3 to Pies.

Why is 9X familiar worth 10 points but 1.5X familiar worth 3 points??

The point was is there any ground advantage.

Geelong at Cat Park has a huge home ground advantage, because teams only ever play 1 single game their, and you get barely any opposition crowds in.

Geelong at the G is basically a neutral game, Geelong face a minor familiarity disadvantage ranging from - 1.3X to 2.3X - and face no travel issues and are able to get 10s of thousands of Cats fans in attendance

If Geelong at Cat Park is a +10 ground advantage, Geelong at the G is a -1 against Essendon/Hawks and -2 against Pies/Tigers....and that is being generous.

Yeah I could bring in crowd factor when you’re the away team at the G but are you really outnumbered? Maybe against a Richmond when it happens.
But no I don’t ever see you being outnumbered outside of that.
Even against GC and GWS away you have the crowd. Your team is blessed and then not made to even come to Geelong because of the blessing plus always on the lower end of interstate trips. Its blessings upon more blessings.

Geelong is always outnumbered away, ok maybe not when we play against North, but even a couple of home games.

If you take away my points system which has you so defensive.
I can put it in very simple terms.
9 home
8 true away games 6 interstate and 2 marvel. There isn’t a single factor you can claim a marvel game is neutral for us.
1 neutral gather round.
That leaves 5 games at a further disadvantage.
That might be familiarity or crowd. You don’t like to include travel but it still exists. Our players are still in the car for over an hour or more depending where they live. Small disadvantage or not it still exists. Your players walk across the road 17 times a year.

9 home, 8 true away and 5 more on the minor end of away games does not add up to any advantage whatsoever.
When I say minor end of away I don’t actually include some of those minor at all especially against the Pies TWICE, the tigers and nor melbourne. However I’m coming at it from your POV.
9 home, 8 away and 5 more lesser away.
It’s pretty obvious there is no advantage at all than add in finals and it’s ridiculous.

For Pies
Outside of an interstate trip, you’re never really an away side. Marvel familiarity lacks but not crowd support.
Add in finals and you are so ridiculously blessed.

 

[doppleganger]

If you take away my points system which has you so defensive.

Claims to present a points system to settle ground familiarity.

However, instead provided a poorly put together list of inconsistent crap that was just a woe is Geelong that

• didnt even consider how many times your opponent plays at the ground
• presented 4 games v 3 games, as 3+ advantage to team with less advantage
• sets 9X familar with +10
• but to ensure poor Geelong looks hard done then notes 2X familiar gets +6

Then more fluff about pretending Geelong is hard done by and equating 6 games at the G as "true away games".

 

[Coolangatta]

Of course the fixture is compromised. Unequal numbers of teams from different states, unequal numbers of venues in different states, a desire to spread games to NT, Tasmania, ACT.
The League MUST manipulate the fixture to chase revenue.
Without the revenue and subsequent propping up of nonprofitable clubs, half the clubs would fold.
If the League is committed to keeping all existing teams in the league (plus expansion), the fixture will HAVE to be manipulated.

Perhaps we should hark back to how the VFL formed itself. Eight clubs broke away from the VFA sick of losing money by subsiding the smaller poorer teams who never keep up.

A non manipulated fixture may work much better with;
2 teams WA
2 teams SA
1 team NSW
1 team Qld
6 teams Vic.

22 games, everyone plays everyone else at their home ground and everyone plays everyone else at their opponents home ground.
The nonprofitable subsided clubs that require the fixture to be manipulative are cut loose.

Too late for that, and don't like that Tassie misses out.

Better to go to 24 teams within 50 years. Add Tassie, ACT, NT, 3rd WA, 3rd QLD, 3rd SA (NSW likely to remain weakest interstate market so they stay at 2 with ACT being "third" NSW team).

24 teams with everyone playing each other once OR two divisions of 12 teams playing each other twice, 2 promoted, 2 relegated.

 

[MickG88]

Serious question - is there any other club apart from Geelong that gets to regularly train on their "home ground"?

No

 

[Taper]

Serious question - is there any other club apart from Geelong that gets to regularly train on their "home ground"?

Gold Coast do but I'm not sure how often.

 

[z547043]

The OP is a SA whinger who thinks that getting 13 games at AO, 11 with full home advantage, aint enough of a leg-up...they should also only play away games at the G.

That is the point...Geelong's games at the G are on the scale closer to neutral than a true away game.

Say full home ground is worth 12 points - that is your Brisbane at the Gabba, Geelong Cat Park - where you have a 9X ground familiarity, 90% crowd support etc.

Essendon v Geelong at the G is worth just 1 or 2 points to Essendon - as ground familiarity is just 1.3, crowd is around 60% and no travel.

1 or 2 points compared to 12 points is your scale, on the advantage / disadvantage scale they are very close to a neutral game.

Congratulations on the win tonight. But, might be a time to revisit your position on this if you don’t think 50,000 rabid fans create a significant home ground advantage and were a factor in the result tonight, especially when the stakes are at their highest. Food for thought, but again well done on the win

 

[Freomaniac]

Since joining the league, Port has played "away" to Adelaide 25 times but "away" to Richmond only 13 times.

This is the Port team that gets other teams to give up their home games so they can pursue China and the NT etc.

The biggest FIXture inequalities are the fact that the SA teams play ALL their games at home, but regularly play opponents at neutral grounds for "away" games.

when is the last time Magpies played geelong in kardinia?

 

[NetworkNerd]

when is the last time Magpies played geelong in kardinia?

1999 I believe

 

[bloodsbigot]

1999 I believe

League is a joke.

 

[doppleganger]

when is the last time Magpies played geelong in kardinia?

It is later than the last time Geelong played Collingwood at Vic Park.

 

[Freomaniac]

It is later than the last time Geelong played Collingwood at Vic Park.

More than happy to see Freo take on your mob at the old Victoria Park.

I wouldn't be fussed travelling to the old Princes park or IKON park either

 

[doppleganger]

More than happy to see Freo take on your mob at the old Victoria Park.

I wouldn't be fussed travelling to the old Princes park or IKON park either

The AFL didnt want that though.

It wants big BLOCKBUSTERS with 75k+ at the MCG.

That is why Coll and Geel haven't played each other at the traditional home grounds in almost 30 years.

Collingwood are big enough that we can get 60k to a Freo game when travelling well, but smaller Melbourne based clubs dont have thst drawing power, a 25k crowd at the G is a waste.

 

[Freomaniac]

The AFL didnt want that though.

It wants big BLOCKBUSTERS with 75k+ at the MCG.

That is why Coll and Geel haven't played each other at the traditional home grounds in almost 30 years.

Collingwood are big enough that we can get 60k to a Freo game when travelling well, but smaller Melbourne based clubs dont have thst drawing power, a 25k crowd at the G is a waste.

I guess you didn't learn about the 2020 and 2021 seasons. Block busters don't mean squat of there's a virus pandemic flying about.

AFL still made money in tv rights. European soccer, .... Same thing.

European clubs still made money in player transfers and merchandise despite the empty crowds

 

[doppleganger]

I guess you didn't learn about the 2020 and 2021 seasons. Block busters don't mean squat of there's a virus pandemic flying about.

AFL still made money in tv rights. European soccer, .... Same thing.

European clubs still made money in player transfers and merchandise despite the empty crowds

??

It is the big European clubs that carry the respective leagues and make champions league.

The same in AFL.

 

[Freomaniac]

??

It is the big European clubs that carry the respective leagues and make champions league.

The same in AFL.

AFL needed the TV rights money. Take that away and there is no AFL in 2020 and 2021.

Why was there a 17 game season in 2020?

EPL rights are important. But again. European sides made money despite empty crowds.

North Melbourne hosted a game vs the saints in docklands in 2021 and still turned a profit. lol

 

[doppleganger]

AFL needed the TV rights money. Take that away and there is no AFL in 2020 and 2021.

Why was there a 17 game season in 2020?

EPL rights are important. But again. European sides made money despite empty crowds.

North Melbourne hosted a game vs the saints in docklands in 2021 and still turned a profit. lol

No idea what you are even posting about now? Just random comments