Discussion Random Discussion

[CursingFijian]

I think the result is a populist movement and not a shift to the right, a westernised style Arab spring, driven by predominately white America's abhorrence for what they see as a wayward government, saturated with elected officials who aspire to be wealthy and not visionary, who pander to the whims of the elitist and mega corporations.

I think we have to accept that the result will have been assisted by the mysoginist, anti-Obama, global warming skeptics, deport the illegals, anti-Muslim, white immigration, pro-coal, veterans welfare and others factions that have all voted for Trump to further very specific agendas.

But in the whole I think, it's a coalition of republican and democratic voters who want to see change in governance. I think most white Americans can see through all of Trump's shortcomings but he was the only one pushing for change. To be fair to Trump, he has been on message for a long time...decades...saying that America must change or become irrelevant.

I also can't see him fulfilling his election promises without ostracising America from the world. But hey, it's always impossible until it happens. Maybe Trump just has a pure understanding of the fact that greed can make people do and accept things out of the ordinary. And America is the greatest consumer the world has ever known.

For any who are interested Netflix has an insightful documentary called 'Requiem for the American Dream' in which Chomsky provides some insight into the wealth distribution disparity and American politics. Very interesting.


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[StCicatriz]

Following people like Michael Moore, my take is that people voted for Trump because of the three things people ultimately care about most: my job, my house, and my family. They want to know they can put food on the table, because they have money to buy the food, a house for the table to be in, and a family sitting around it.

In the wake of the GFC, a lot of the former middle class became the poor: they lost their jobs, their houses, and thus their families. And the Republicans with their trickle-down Reaganomics were part of the problem; and the Democrats who were supposed to be on their side were caring more about men being able to go into women's bathrooms than about getting them their jobs back - and the fixation of the left with those kinds of issues in itself seemed, in their mind, to threaten their families. They no longer had anybody in their corner. Instead, the career politicians and the media and the twittersphere are all stuck tight in their fat rich cities, screwing the little guy.

And that's where Trump comes in. He may have used the Republican ticket, but he's no Republican. He's not either party, because those parties are entrenched in city, Washington politics. Voting Trump was a vote against Washington itself. To those who say that Trump is rich, that's true, but to them he's Tony Stark rich (the best analogy I've heard!): Iron Man, who sneers at the bureaucrats as he breaks their rules and gets the job done for the little guy.

Now, he will inevitably let them down. Even if he wanted to be fighting for them (which I don't think he does), he will find the mechanisms of government would be too strong for him to do so - Washington is still too powerful a force, whether it's Republican or Democrat.

And hey, I'm not saying that I, in any way shape or form, agree with their positions on this stuff. I'm just listening to their perspective, in order to understand how this happened. Because it's precisely why Brexit happened, and why One Nation 2.0 happened. We all now have a choice: we can continue to sneer at them and ridicule them for being idiots, and keep shouting in the echo-chamber of our perspectives, and keep predicting what will happen out of an event none of us predicted would have happened; or we can shut up for a second, and listen to these people with the respect that should be afforded to human beings, especially those who don't feel very listened to, and who just freaking want their job, their house, and their family.

extremely well worded and absolutely spot on

i'm with you perse, i dont agree with their decision but i understand it

i heard an analyst say the democrats stuffed up when they decided to hitch their wagon to the corporates, banks and lobyists over the worker and unions. he was saying the unions were pouring millions into the democrats, the party would always ask them for more and more and then tell them how to vote, but then when the election finished and the union started to call in 1 or 2 pieces of policy they wanted, they turned their backs on them. instead they delivered policy for large corporates etc who were working against them. they did this election after election, whilst the conditions of workers and the economy went down the drain

it was only a matter of time before they stopped listening and did what was in their perceived best interests

also for the people claiming trump is on the right... he's a lefty bar the stance on immigration and tax cuts

 

[Joffaboy]

In China ATM and all the Chinese are making the right noises. They know America cant take them on in a trade war.
Trump will let down his followers. Has already taken down the stuff about Muslims off his website.

 

[Sir Skid]

Outrage in the USA where it was discovered that some voting machines were turning Trump votes into Clinton votes!

Later investigations revealed that the Federal Election Commission had identified a shortage of machines in the lead up to the election and had managed to obtain some additional technology from the AFL in Australia.

The Americans quickly adapted the "AFLFree Kick Adjudicators" by simply replacing "Hawthorn" with "Hillary" & "The Other Team" with "Trump".

Post election tests of the machines by the AFL's Director of Umpiring apparently failed to detect any anomoly.

Some of your best work Spaceman

 

[pebblesofsand]

Following people like Michael Moore, my take is that people voted for Trump because of the three things people ultimately care about most: my job, my house, and my family. They want to know they can put food on the table, because they have money to buy the food, a house for the table to be in, and a family sitting around it.

In the wake of the GFC, a lot of the former middle class became the poor: they lost their jobs, their houses, and thus their families. And the Republicans with their trickle-down Reaganomics were part of the problem; and the Democrats who were supposed to be on their side were caring more about men being able to go into women's bathrooms than about getting them their jobs back - and the fixation of the left with those kinds of issues in itself seemed, in their mind, to threaten their families. They no longer had anybody in their corner. Instead, the career politicians and the media and the twittersphere are all stuck tight in their fat rich cities, screwing the little guy.

And that's where Trump comes in. He may have used the Republican ticket, but he's no Republican. He's not either party, because those parties are entrenched in city, Washington politics. Voting Trump was a vote against Washington itself. To those who say that Trump is rich, that's true, but to them he's Tony Stark rich (the best analogy I've heard!): Iron Man, who sneers at the bureaucrats as he breaks their rules and gets the job done for the little guy.

Now, he will inevitably let them down. Even if he wanted to be fighting for them (which I don't think he does), he will find the mechanisms of government would be too strong for him to do so - Washington is still too powerful a force, whether it's Republican or Democrat.

And hey, I'm not saying that I, in any way shape or form, agree with their positions on this stuff. I'm just listening to their perspective, in order to understand how this happened. Because it's precisely why Brexit happened, and why One Nation 2.0 happened. We all now have a choice: we can continue to sneer at them and ridicule them for being idiots, and keep shouting in the echo-chamber of our perspectives, and keep predicting what will happen out of an event none of us predicted would have happened; or we can shut up for a second, and listen to these people with the respect that should be afforded to human beings, especially those who don't feel very listened to, and who just freaking want their job, their house, and their family.

Pretty well sums up the situation. The poor punter gets to vote once every few years and then the vested interests and the lobbyists for the corporate sector take over and the flow of money is the only thing the counts.

Governments all over the world have been conceding to multi nationals who long ago gave up any pretense of being corporate "citizens" and now will play every govt against each other in order to maximise returns to the reducing few. Have look at the profit shifting and the billing of local owned subsidiary's by the parent company that is conveniently located in the country with the lowest corporate tax rate, so that the local entities (ie Apple Australia, McDonalds etc etc) make zero profit (and therefore pay zero tax) despite billions and billions in turnover.

It should be clear to most that the right wing parties in most countries (the Republicans in America, Libs in Australia, Conservatives in England) will continue to pander to their mates in the corporate sector which means the only place real change can come from, under two party systems, is the left leaning parties.

Unfortunately they aren't able to articulate an alternative (no surprises there if Clinton and Shorten are the best they can throw up) and if they start to gain some traction all the right (and their media) have to do is say "socialism" or a "impediment to the free market" and any idea that might actually begin to readdress the inequity of income distribution that has exploded over the past 20 years is seen as shocking policy by those who actually would benefit from it. Have a look at the response to Bernie Sanders.

Federal Govts need to grow a set and take on the multi nationals - have a look at Norways Government Pension Fund (formerly the Petroleum Fund) - they took the view that companies love to have stable conditions and basically said to them - well if you want to operate here and reap the benefits of our stability you will have to pay.

Largest sovereign wealth fund in the world ($900billion) and the interest pays for any deficit so they can continue to invest in infrastructure and programs for the benefit of its citizens. Even if they spent half of a normal years return (6%) that gives $24 billion a YEAR to spend internally. Certainly takes the pressure of the tax department having untangle to web of corporate tax shifting.

The fund is now starting to flex their considerable muscles by saying to companies that they need to look at the ratio of employee to executive salaries if they want the fund to invest in the company. That will be interesting!!!

Compare that attitude to Australia and the Mining Tax.

Any way time to get of the soapbox - jeez I'm hanging out for footy!!!!

 

[Dr Spaceman]

In China ATM

Crap! Now we're gonna be flooded with cheap, poor quality, knock-off Joffas!

 

[RoundCubic]

I think the result is a populist movement and not a shift to the right, a westernised style Arab spring, driven by predominately white America's abhorrence for what they see as a wayward government, saturated with elected officials who aspire to be wealthy and not visionary, who pander to the whims of the elitist and mega corporations.

I think we have to accept that the result will have been assisted by the mysoginist, anti-Obama, global warming skeptics, deport the illegals, anti-Muslim, white immigration, pro-coal, veterans welfare and others factions that have all voted for Trump to further very specific agendas.

But in the whole I think, it's a coalition of republican and democratic voters who want to see change in governance. I think most white Americans can see through all of Trump's shortcomings but he was the only one pushing for change. To be fair to Trump, he has been on message for a long time...decades...saying that America must change or become irrelevant.

I also can't see him fulfilling his election promises without ostracising America from the world. But hey, it's always impossible until it happens. Maybe Trump just has a pure understanding of the fact that greed can make people do and accept things out of the ordinary. And America is the greatest consumer the world has ever known.

For any who are interested Netflix has an insightful documentary called 'Requiem for the American Dream' in which Chomsky provides some insight into the wealth distribution disparity and American politics. Very interesting.


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If it was about change why did these trump supporters vote to reelect Republican congressmen and senators many who have been in since Bush this election is about a huckster and desperate uneducated people.

 

[CursingFijian]

If it was about change why did these trump supporters vote to reelect Republican congressmen and senators many who have been in since Bush this election is about a huckster and desperate uneducated people.

Good question, and I don't know what the reality is for congress and the senate (indeed nor the presidency). Maybe people just voting along party lines. But I think with regards to Trump, the blue firewall was broken by a large segment crossing the floor to vote for the candidate who is proposing systemic change.


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[dct66]

It will be interesting to see what happens in the USA under President Trump and how it affects the rest of the world.

In the UK, the champions of the BREXIT argument ran for the hills when it won. Not one of them wanted to implement the mess they had created. I guess that isn't an option for Donald Trump.

 

[RoundCubic]

Good question, and I don't know what the reality is for congress and the senate (indeed nor the presidency). Maybe people just voting along party lines. But I think with regards to Trump, the blue firewall was broken by a large segment crossing the floor to vote for the candidate who is proposing systemic change.


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He was promising everything "all your dreams, all your dreams for your family and your country are gonna come true" and when asked how he's gonna do it he says its a secret thats the definition of a huckster snake oil salesman while also beating the drum on conservative social issues.
Hillary at the same time failed to get African Americans to vote in the same numbers as Obama.
Cubans in Florida stayed republican party loyal.
The first election after the voter's rights act ended hurt her in North Carolina and Pennsalyvania where without early voting many poorer minority people facing long lines and reading polls that Hillary had it in the bag did not turn out.
The areas where she got a big boost in Hispanic voters were too red to flip(Texas, Arizona) to compensate for Trumps pick up of non college educated whites in the rust belt and in those states.
Finally after the FBI intervention many white republican women without college degrees who had been polling for Hillary ended up voting for Trump.
Nate Silver gave him a 1 in 3 chance and I believed him but it was a bit like the dogs winning the gf this yeah in the last weeks of the election he ran a tight game but everything also fell his way
Edit: North Carolina it was Voter ID's and number of polling places just to make the distinction clear

 

[StCicatriz]

Pretty well sums up the situation. The poor punter gets to vote once every few years and then the vested interests and the lobbyists for the corporate sector take over and the flow of money is the only thing the counts.

Governments all over the world have been conceding to multi nationals who long ago gave up any pretense of being corporate "citizens" and now will play every govt against each other in order to maximise returns to the reducing few. Have look at the profit shifting and the billing of local owned subsidiary's by the parent company that is conveniently located in the country with the lowest corporate tax rate, so that the local entities (ie Apple Australia, McDonalds etc etc) make zero profit (and therefore pay zero tax) despite billions and billions in turnover.

It should be clear to most that the right wing parties in most countries (the Republicans in America, Libs in Australia, Conservatives in England) will continue to pander to their mates in the corporate sector which means the only place real change can come from, under two party systems, is the left leaning parties.

Unfortunately they aren't able to articulate an alternative (no surprises there if Clinton and Shorten are the best they can throw up) and if they start to gain some traction all the right (and their media) have to do is say "socialism" or a "impediment to the free market" and any idea that might actually begin to readdress the inequity of income distribution that has exploded over the past 20 years is seen as shocking policy by those who actually would benefit from it. Have a look at the response to Bernie Sanders.

Federal Govts need to grow a set and take on the multi nationals - have a look at Norways Government Pension Fund (formerly the Petroleum Fund) - they took the view that companies love to have stable conditions and basically said to them - well if you want to operate here and reap the benefits of our stability you will have to pay.

Largest sovereign wealth fund in the world ($900billion) and the interest pays for any deficit so they can continue to invest in infrastructure and programs for the benefit of its citizens. Even if they spent half of a normal years return (6%) that gives $24 billion a YEAR to spend internally. Certainly takes the pressure of the tax department having untangle to web of corporate tax shifting.

The fund is now starting to flex their considerable muscles by saying to companies that they need to look at the ratio of employee to executive salaries if they want the fund to invest in the company. That will be interesting!!!

Compare that attitude to Australia and the Mining Tax.

Any way time to get of the soapbox - jeez I'm hanging out for footy!!!!

the problem in the states is the democrats are also taking money... so what do you do when you literally have no party that represents you?

you vote for the bloke that his own party didnt want, the one who gate crashed their nomination process and has no history of politics

 

[CALL ME SNAKE]

All the huffing and puffing statements Trump used to get some of the disenchanted Americans to vote for him wont happen.
There will be no Great Wall of Mexico and i doubt very much there will be a total ban on Muslim immigrants.
More than likely he will just make industrial change that will help America short term and maybe piss off a few countries they usually trade with. He is a ruthless business man after all.
He will probably do some good and also do some bad.
No different than most polititions.
I think the " omg were all screwed now" response is a bit unwarranted .
I think hes just an egotistical bafoon albeit a clever one.
He wont last too long.
Thats my opinion anyway

 

[RoundCubic]

the problem in the states is the democrats are also taking money... so what do you do when you literally have no party that represents you?

you vote for the bloke that his own party didnt want, the one who gate crashed their nomination process and has no history of politics

But when trump voters are polled they had greater issues with conservative social issues and climate scepticism then political corruption thats why they voted in the same republican senate and house that has been in power for 6 years this is about white people freaking out about becoming a minority majority

 

[Joffaboy]

Crap! Now we're gonna be flooded with cheap, poor quality, knock-off Joffas!

Some of your best work Spaceman

Can tell you for free they send all the shit stuff overseas and keep the quality stuff for themselves.

Also there are quite alot of them here.

Who knew?

 

[RoundCubic]

All the huffing and puffing statements Trump used to get some of the disenchanted Americans to vote for him wont happen.
There will be no Great Wall of Mexico and i doubt very much there will be a total ban on Muslim immigrants.
More than likely he will just make industrial change that will help America short term and maybe piss off a few countries they usually trade with. He is a ruthless business man after all.
He will probably do some good and also do some bad.
No different than most polititions.
I think the " omg were all screwed now" response is a bit unwarranted .
I think hes just an egotistical bafoon albeit a clever one.
He wont last too long.
Thats my opinion anyway

I hope so but he will build the wall but who cares there is already a wall over half of the boarder.
The economic damage and his isolationism is my big concern cause that could hurt us.
Also the way he will use instruments like litigation and hacking to try to intimate, discredit and harrass political opponents and their financial backers

 

[crasha301]

Resource based economy...Done!

 

[RoundCubic]

In China ATM and all the Chinese are making the right noises. They know America cant take them on in a trade war.
Trump will let down his followers. Has already taken down the stuff about Muslims off his website.

Love that 24 hrs after trump was elected we are talking up the RCEP broke the glass on that plan b Whitlam, Keating and Howard installed quickly.
Hopefully we can back out of the f35 deal when he comes looking to put up tariffs and get some effective fighters

 

[RoundCubic]

One nation happened because of the changes to Senate voting and the double dissolution election relatively the same number of votes as in the past.
Xenophon team is closer to Trump in that sense.
Ironically we can thank the greens for one nation

 

[StCicatriz]

But when trump voters are polled they had greater issues with conservative social issues and climate scepticism then political corruption thats why they voted in the same republican senate and house that has been in power for 6 years this is about white people freaking out about becoming a minority majority

are they the same polls that had hillary a 80-90% chance of winning the election?

 

[Joffaboy]

are they the same polls that had hillary a 80-90% chance of winning the election?

Many a reputation burnt. Nate Silver amongst them

 

[RoundCubic]

Should of used the word surveyed instead of polled as polling includes making decisions about likely voters and electoral make up surveying is just interviewing a 1000 people who support Trump and what issues they feel passionate about.
Nate Silver was the only one who gave Trump a chance and Trump won in areas that he had given Trump +40-49% chance the issue was would he win all of Florida, Penn and Wisconsin where the results were all 1% or less Michigan maybe 0.2%.
Flip Florida and Michigan or Pennsylvania Hillary wins flip Penn and Michigan and Wisconsin she wins.
Trump had a very narrow path to victory get whites without a college degree to vote for him higher numbers and hope african americans don't come out like they did in 2012
But a legitimate path thus the 1 in 3 chance and really its 2 groups that cost Hillary that she hoped could cover lower African American turn out Cubans and conservative women.
Hillary still won the popular vote which makes Trump only i think the second president to win without winning the popular vote.
Rerun the election and people wouldn't stay at home and Hillary would win probably like at our last election if it was rerun the next day the Liberal party would of done better.
The problem was the pollsters counted on 2012 turn out but 18-30year olds and African Americans didn't vote in the same numbers and though she did better with educated whites it didn't cover his gains but only just

 

[gringo2011]

I think the result is a populist movement and not a shift to the right, a westernised style Arab spring, driven by predominately white America's abhorrence for what they see as a wayward government, saturated with elected officials who aspire to be wealthy and not visionary, who pander to the whims of the elitist and mega corporations.

I think we have to accept that the result will have been assisted by the mysoginist, anti-Obama, global warming skeptics, deport the illegals, anti-Muslim, white immigration, pro-coal, veterans welfare and others factions that have all voted for Trump to further very specific agendas.

But in the whole I think, it's a coalition of republican and democratic voters who want to see change in governance. I think most white Americans can see through all of Trump's shortcomings but he was the only one pushing for change. To be fair to Trump, he has been on message for a long time...decades...saying that America must change or become irrelevant.

I also can't see him fulfilling his election promises without ostracising America from the world. But hey, it's always impossible until it happens. Maybe Trump just has a pure understanding of the fact that greed can make people do and accept things out of the ordinary. And America is the greatest consumer the world has ever known.

For any who are interested Netflix has an insightful documentary called 'Requiem for the American Dream' in which Chomsky provides some insight into the wealth distribution disparity and American politics. Very interesting.


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Yep I agree with that. Bernie Sanders was a leftist version of the same thing. I saw an article saying Hilary was the candidate that offered a fine tune of the system when the people wanted to take a sledge hammer to it. I watched the Requiem for theAmerican dream and it was a pretty good insight but very depressing. I went to see Thomas Picketty a couple of weeks ago and the wealth distribution modelling he had was absolutely frightening. The US was so imbalanced that you could see how the people have become desperate.

 

[gringo2011]

All the huffing and puffing statements Trump used to get some of the disenchanted Americans to vote for him wont happen.
There will be no Great Wall of Mexico and i doubt very much there will be a total ban on Muslim immigrants.
More than likely he will just make industrial change that will help America short term and maybe piss off a few countries they usually trade with. He is a ruthless business man after all.
He will probably do some good and also do some bad.
No different than most polititions.
I think the " omg were all screwed now" response is a bit unwarranted .
I think hes just an egotistical bafoon albeit a clever one.
He wont last too long.
Thats my opinion anyway

Yeah I'm hoping you're right, he seems to stand for very little despite the huff and puff. He'll make tax rates lower so he doesn't pay as much and get fat pockets from his time in politics and lose the will to fight. It will be business as usual with a different front man in all likelihood.

 

[Fyfe2Shenton]

If anyone wanted an update on Choomah, he is currently trolling on Twitter as Donald Slungpu and seems to have taken on the responbilities of campaign manager for Michael Firrito in the 2020 US Presidential Election.

 

[Joffaboy]

If anyone wanted an update on Choomah, he is currently trolling on Twitter as Donald Slungpu and seems to have taken on the responbilities of campaign manager for Michael Firrito in the 2020 US Presidential Election.

The kid sure is a loose unit