Rant RE: VFL/AFL

[Son of Skeletor]

There is only one way I am wrong and even then it's up for debate.
Should it be Collingwood's 14, Carlton's 13 and Essendon's 12?

You're cooking what for dinner?

I can't help but notice, for a start, that you've got Collingwood listed as winning 14 '2nd tier titles'.

Presumably you consider the fourteenth of these '2nd tier titles' to have been won in 1990..

.. in a competition that included fourteen teams..

.. based in four different states..

.. under the banner of 'The AFL'..

On the other hand, you clearly consider Essendon's fifteenth flag in 1993 to have been won in a 'first tier' competition, am I right?

So, what changed between 1990 and 1993? Let's ponder that for a second..

The Freudian slip betrays the true source of your irritation- this thread just reads like a petulant tantrum.

 

[Dirty Bird]

You're cooking what for dinner?

I can't help but notice, for a start, that you've got Collingwood listed as winning 14 '2nd tier titles'.

Sorry, 13. Goes to show how irrelevent your history is.

 

[Son of Skeletor]

Sorry, 13. Goes to show how irrelevent your history is.

Now what was I saying about petulant tantrums?

 

[sherb]

2nd tier? What rubbish.

As I said before, a competition's history is about the recording of achievements, not measuring the equivalence of them.

 

[Chewy]

Victorians out there who actually think the VFL should be held in the same breath as the AFL.

Before 1982 it was simply a state league.

Hawthorn has won 10 premierships and Adelaide has won 2 premierships
I'm not comparing our clubs. I realise you joined the comp in 1991, just as Hawthorn joined in 1925

Hawthorn has won 10 premierships and Adelaide has won 2 premierships
It's not a pissing contest. It's just a fact of life.

You make a good point about the VFL being a state league up until 1982.
I have no issues if we create a list of premierships won from then on


6 Hawthorn
4 Essendon
3 Geelong
3 West Coast
3 Brisbane
3 Carlton
2 Sydney
2 Collingwood
2 North Melbourne
2 Adelaide
1 Port Adelaide

 

[The King!]

I could see the call for a fresh start if a mix of teams from different comps started the afl comp, but its the same league and others were created to join

 

[Ron The Bear]

Bart Cummings has won 12 Melbourne Cups, not "9 locally-contested Cups + 3 international-era Cups".

 

[Simple Jack]

I could see the call for a fresh start if a mix of teams from different comps started the afl comp, but its the same league and others were created to join

Except for Port, but yes, summed up perfectly in 11 words.

 

[wedgetail]

Is it offseason already? You know i think you could probably bump one of these from every off season since this place started back at the turn of the millenium. I probably feature heavily in most of them... and im becoming a little sick of the circular arguments and the fingers in the ear la-la-la 'you joined our comp, suck it up' type responses

We all know which arguments are fair and follow the path to natural justice... but lets just let the Victorians continue to think they are the centre of the universe and laugh as the arrogant tosspots reinforce their reputations in public.

good minions.

 

[Son of Skeletor]

We all know which arguments are fair and follow the path to natural justice... but lets just let the Victorians continue to think they are the centre of the universe and laugh as the arrogant tosspots reinforce their reputations in public.

good minions.

You've been watching too much 'Lord of The Rings', or 'Star Wars' or something..

 

[Simple Jack]

and im becoming a little sick of the circular arguments and the fingers in the ear la-la-la 'you joined our comp, suck it up' type responses

What circular arguments? It's stating irrefutable facts vs fantasy.

Are you saying West Coast didn't join the VFL? What happened then?

 

[sherb]

Is it offseason already? You know i think you could probably bump one of these from every off season since this place started back at the turn of the millenium. I probably feature heavily in most of them... and im becoming a little sick of the circular arguments and the fingers in the ear la-la-la 'you joined our comp, suck it up' type responses

We all know which arguments are fair and follow the path to natural justice... but lets just let the Victorians continue to think they are the centre of the universe and laugh as the arrogant tosspots reinforce their reputations in public.

good minions.

You haven't seen any arguments like that (bolded) from me. You see, I am coming from a position of logic - it's got nothing to do with supporting a Victorian club (given that I am not even Victorian and have never in fact lived there).

It's really not that difficult to understand. In a continuing sporting competition the records are counted since inception. Equivalence between eras is irrelevant. It is simply about recording the history of the competition.

And I would have made precisely the same argument if it had been the WAFL or the SANFL which had grown into the AFL, with "interstate" clubs joining them.

If you insist on refusing to understand common logic though, then at the end of the day those responses are fair enough - you did join the VFL and you have to wear the rules of that competition.

 

[Wetdog]

I think you'll find if you read my other post, just a couple of posts above that one you quoted, I disagree with the OPs idea. I agree fully that VFL records should be acknowledged. Carlton is still the same Carlton that it was before.
However, to say that the AFL is the same is it was, completely ignores that it is promoting itself as THE national competition. That is a clear and blatant point of difference. It has become the body in charge of both the highest level of the sport, and the history of the game. It runs the hall of fame, it has begun strong-arming the state leagues, it has "Australian" in the title.
My argument isn't that we should stop acknowledging VFL flags (though I think we should make more of an effort to specify what was in the VFL era, over the AFL era) but stop downplaying other leagues which existed in parallell with the VFL for over a century prior to there being a national league at all.

I'm not sure why I'm bothering to argue with you, as you've shown time and time again that you're not at all willing to listen to reason - particularly with how you've argued the Port Adelaide point, but there you go.

If you can't acknowledge that a shift rhetoric between VICTORIAN football league to AUSTRALIAN football league signals a significant point of difference, then this argument isn't going to go anywhere.

The fact that it happened in a largely otherwise unimportant year is irrelevant. It's annoying that the shift towards a national game is as murky as it is, but, unlike the OP, I don't think we need a cutoff date. Just more respect for the other leagues, the clubs that made them up, and the player records. I used the AFL hall of fame as an example. Barrie Robran has been in there since it was first founded, so for that to be the case, then there is a clear acknowledgement that the entity exists to celebrate footballers from all of Australia, rather than just the VFL/AFL, as Barrie Robran never played, or wanted to play, in the VFL. Yet representation by footballers from beyond the VFL/AFL in the HoF is disproportionately tiny. This is just one example of how our contribution to the sport has been downplayed for years by an entity claiming to be the national caretaker of the national game. You find the OP's suggestion disrespectful, whereas we have to live with similar disrespect constantly. As long as this disrespect continues, you're going to get people like the OP trying to find solutions - some of which you will find offensive yourself.

If the AFL is to be the keeper of the sport, and in charge of the history of the game, while simultaneously claiming it as the NATIONAL league, then making more of an effort to celebrate the contribution of other states is the least they could do.
Otherwise, call it the VFL again.

Maybe we need an Australian Football Hall of Fame run by an independent commission with representatives from all the leagues? Players etc could then be admitted by category I.e AFL/VFL, SANFL, WAFL. Or each league should only have responsibility for HoF for players of their league only?

 

[Wetdog]

Ken Farmer - 1419 goals for one. (replacing Lockett's 1360)
Ken Farmer - 23 goals in one game for two. (replacing Fanning's 18)
Ken Farmer - 6.33 goals per game for three. (replacing Coleman's 5.48)

He played 224 games, 223 he got a goal in, the 1 he didn't he was stretchered off in the opening minutes.

Farmer's exploits are impressive. But the records you quote (Coleman, Lockett etc) are VFL/AFL records. Farmer didn't kick those goals in the VFL/AFL, so they don't feature in the records. Simple.

I think what you want is Farmer's records acknowledged in Australian rules football history (not just VFL/AFL). It then becomes much harder and murkier to compare records from different state leagues from the 50s, 60s etc. You could probably argue about it to the cows come home because the quality of the leagues can't be quantified. You want some advice, let the chip on your shoulder go and enjoy this great game of Australian rules football (note I didn't say AFL) with all it's glorious inperfections.

 

[Hearts to hearts]

It's not a state v state issue. The VFL/AFL became the most prestigious competition - the one players left their clubs to join and the one clubs applied to enter - so it sets its own rules and celebrates its own history.

No-one says North has nine premierships - it has four in this competition, as well as five in the competition it belonged to before it joined this competition in 1925. The fact it beat the VFL champions in at least one of its VFA premiership years doesn't make either the club or the competition the equal of the VFL/AFL at that time. It's just a historical curiosity, like being champions of Australia.

The AFL has started to try to be the guardian of Australian Rules history with extending the the Hall of Fame beyond the VFL, but it's as hamfisted and half-arsed as you'd expect. All of us following clubs with a non VFL/AFL past have to just accept that we have to record and celebrate our own history.

 

[sydney eagle]

To be fair the AFL does at least give SOME recognition to players who never played in the VFL in its "Hall Of Fame". True, there is only one non VFL player accorded "Legend" status (Barrie Robran), but there are a number of players who nevee played in the VFL included in the "Hall Of Fame" (George Doig from west Australia and Ken Farmer of S A to name just two).

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Have fun telling Liverpool supporters none of their titles count.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Good lord... “2nd tier” now... this keeps getting better.

If the VFL was the 2nd tier, what was the 1st tier?

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Good lord... “2nd tier” now... this keeps getting better.

If the VFL was the 2nd tier, what was the 1st tier?

Yep had to laugh at that myself Bunk, I think he got that the wrong way around and was trying to Point out that all WAFL and SANFL premierships were regarded as first tier until that certain point of time which no one can pin down.
Personally i think it was around 1984??? that was when the flow of players to play in the VFL had become to much for the WAFL and the SANFL to compete against financially. Players could simply earn a lot more money playing football in Victoria and also the VFL was the premier of the three big state leagues of footy.
There was of course no doubt at all I think that every year there was 3 first tier premierships decided in Australian Football, the VFL, the WAFL and the SANFL.
There is only one first tier now and that is the AFL which was the old VFL.

 

[Sebastian Balboa]

Hawthorn has won 10 premierships and Adelaide has won 2 premierships
I'm not comparing our clubs. I realise you joined the comp in 1991, just as Hawthorn joined in 1925

Hawthorn has won 10 premierships and Adelaide has won 2 premierships
It's not a pissing contest. It's just a fact of life.

You make a good point about the VFL being a state league up until 1982.
I have no issues if we create a list of premierships won from then on


6 Hawthorn
4 Essendon
3 Geelong
3 West Coast
3 Brisbane
3 Carlton
2 Sydney
2 Collingwood
2 North Melbourne
2 Adelaide
1 Port Adelaide

Either way, we still don't get a look in

 

[Scotland]

No-one says North has nine premierships - it has four in this competition, as well as five in the competition it belonged to before it joined this competition in 1925. The fact it beat the VFL champions in at least one of its VFA premiership years doesn't make either the club or the competition the equal of the VFL/AFL at that time. It's just a historical curiosity, like being champions of Australia.

The issue isn't that North of 1910 or whenever were better or worse than the 1910 VFL premier, it's the implied notion that the VFL premier has a greater historical standing than any other team from the same year.

As you said, the AFL are doing a half-arsed job as historical guardians of the sport. This comes as no surprise to me.

 

[Sebastian Balboa]

The first ever 100m sprint gold medal at the olympics in 1896 was ran in 12.0 seconds, do we just not count that now as an Olympic gold medal as athletics back then wasn't the standard it is today?

Difference being there weren't two other "Olympic" organisations/movements.

 

[Pj.Rj.Hj]

It's not a state v state issue. The VFL/AFL became the most prestigious competition - the one players left their clubs to join and the one clubs applied to enter - so it sets its own rules and celebrates its own history.

No-one says North has nine premierships - it has four in this competition, as well as five in the competition it belonged to before it joined this competition in 1925. The fact it beat the VFL champions in at least one of its VFA premiership years doesn't make either the club or the competition the equal of the VFL/AFL at that time. It's just a historical curiosity, like being champions of Australia.

The AFL has started to try to be the guardian of Australian Rules history with extending the the Hall of Fame beyond the VFL, but it's as hamfisted and half-arsed as you'd expect. All of us following clubs with a non VFL/AFL past have to just accept that we have to record and celebrate our own history.

I guess that is the key problem. The AFL should either do an Australian Rules Football HoF properly or not at all. The half-arsed effort we currently have just breeds resentment.

Alternatively I have no problem with a VFL/AFL HoF where Barrie Robran, Ken Farmer, Georgie Doig and Barry Cable have no place being mentioned in.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Is it offseason already? You know i think you could probably bump one of these from every off season since this place started back at the turn of the millenium. I probably feature heavily in most of them... and im becoming a little sick of the circular arguments and the fingers in the ear la-la-la 'you joined our comp, suck it up' type responses

We all know which arguments are fair and follow the path to natural justice... but lets just let the Victorians continue to think they are the centre of the universe and laugh as the arrogant tosspots reinforce their reputations in public.

good minions.

haha

Getting sick of the circular arguments but then focus negatively on the side that disagrees with your opinion.

The fact that you reduce many articulate, factual, analogous arguments to 'you joined our comp, suck it up' arguments, says more about you and your capacity to be objective than it does those that you disagree with.

You follow it up with faux arrogance and a good old fashioned belitting, as though it settles the issue in your mind. Must drive you crazy that you will never be on the side of history.

See you next year.

 

[TigerCraig]

Of course all Port Adelaide premierships before the entry of Central Districts in 1964 should not be counted. Until then the SANFL was just a metropolitan Adelaide competetion. With the entry of Centrals the league was completely changed