News Review into racism at Collingwood

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Gone Critical

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Wells would be likely to have been interviewed also. He gives the contrast of having experienced 2 AFL clubs

In relation to that I know Daniel and his wife and saw her at a VFL match during his second season. One of the things she said was Wells loved Collingwood, said nothing against North but people at Collingwood had been fantastic and they were rapt with how they had been taken in. A positive and maybe speaks to us getting better over time given this is after Leons and Heretiers time at the club.
 

Capital Magpie

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I read that Cameron Cloke, who was a team mate of HLs for 4 years and who was very close to him, has said that he NEVER heard that offensive nickname used by or about HL in all that time.

Suggests to me that the supposed nickname has been fabricated by HL to suit his current agenda.
 

Gone Critical

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I read that Cameron Cloke, who was a team mate of HLs for 4 years and who was very close to him, has said that he NEVER heard that offensive nickname used by or about HL in all that time.

Suggests to me that the supposed nickname has been fabricated by HL to suit his current agenda.
Cmon. Fabricated means made up. There is no doubt the nickname was used. Argue context but it wasnt fabricated.
 

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Capital Magpie

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Cmon. Fabricated means made up. There is no doubt the nickname was used. Argue context but it wasnt fabricated.
OK fabricated is perhaps the wrong word. Exaggerated might have been better.
However if Cameron Cloke is to be believed, it undoubtedly weakens HLs case that the term was used freely in his time at the club.
Cameron says that he and HL were best mates when they were at the club together. Surely if that is true Cameron would have heard the nickname used??
 

Gone Critical

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OK fabricated is perhaps the wrong word. Exaggerated might have been better.
However if Cameron Cloke is to be believed, it undoubtedly weakens HLs case that the term was used freely in his time at the club.
Cameron says that he and HL were best mates when they were at the club together. Surely if that is true Cameron would have heard the nickname used??
That makes more sense. It was used bur as Clokes statement and the messaging by club leaders that they never heard it it may have been used by a clique within the club. At a guess i think he was close with the rat pack boys earlier days at the club and it seems like they could have used the name without really worrying to much but maybe had enough awareness not to use it outside the group. They also would have been the cool kids of the playing group and as such the ones you had to play up to a bit if you wanted to be included in their circle

This is speculation by me but a possible explanation as to why this name could have been used in a closed sense
 

sr36

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Maybe but Leo

Maybe but Leon has alwys had a bit of a link in with the Heretier discussion. I didn't take the report as only looking at the 5-6 incidents they reported anyway, I thought it was more general than that and was looking at the mechanisms the club had in place to provide an inclusive environment with facility to manage issues in a balanced fair way. Leon could certainly have spoken to that.
If you're interviewing everyone who had a bit of a link to HL discussions by having publicly commented, your interview list would be big. I don't think Leon's name would have been on the primary list, but when interviewing people about how racist issues were dealt with, his name may have popped up and been added to the list.

My perspective on this comes from having had a high school pastoral background. Having been part of the reviewing writing/copying of policies and having sat in on mediation sessions and handed out consequences. From a school's perspective, in terms of policy, your looking at two main goals - prevention and reaction to incidents. That's what I'm assuming was reviewed. When you're coming up with or copying a policy, half the policy - the reaction part - is an assumption that there will be some racial incidents. Schools aren't at fault for racist incidents that occur unless the previous reactions have been poor and enabled it- no preventative education no matter how good is going to stop it completely. Incidents occurring is on the individuals involved and often not the school. The school is at fault if their preventative education is substandard or tokenistic and they're at fault if their reaction to incidents is below par and it can often make the matter worse in terms of outcome for the victim and in terms of future prevention. It sounds like this was the case with the response to Leon's incident and the Pies in general. In terms of the Leon case, above all else it sounds like we needed a good counsellor that could run a mediation session well. It sounds like we wouldn't have any idea about mediation and reconciliation of grievances and done anything to ensure the claimant wasn't received as a dobber.

I'm assuming that the response to racism review was a review of our preventative education as well as what was done to respond when issues arose. Reviewing the education part might involve interviews with players - but there's no reason why it would be an indigenous player that was interviewed. My understanding is that the reaction part was reviewed based solely on the incidents that were already known - as investigating or looking for incidents wasn't part of the scope of the review. I don't see why Leon would have been addeed to an interview list unless it was because his name was mentioned in relation to how we responded to an unlisted issue of racism, which it obviously could have been.
 
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Markfs

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That makes more sense. It was used bur as Clokes statement and the messaging by club leaders that they never heard it it may have been used by a clique within the club. At a guess i think he was close with the rat pack boys earlier days at the club and it seems like they could have used the name without really worrying to much but maybe had enough awareness not to use it outside the group. They also would have been the cool kids of the playing group and as such the ones you had to play up to a bit if you wanted to be included in their circle

This is speculation by me but a possible explanation as to why this name could have been used in a closed sense
This seems entirely possible....even likely for a group of males. I think the males here will remember being selective in our younger years about what we said in front of people in authority. I know I didnt swear in front of my mother until I was about 30, and if you asked her she would have probably sworn that i didnt swear...
 

sr36

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At a guess i think he was close with the rat pack boys earlier days at the club and it seems like they could have used the name without really worrying to much but maybe had enough awareness not to use it outside the group.
That would have been my guess. They're humour was also to rip sh*t out of each other about anything and everything.
 

sr36

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This seems entirely possible....even likely for a group of males. I think the males here will remember being selective in our younger years about what we said in front of people in authority. I know I didnt swear in front of my mother until I was about 30, and if you asked her she would have probably sworn that i didnt swear...
Adjusting your language and behaviour for different audiences isn't a peculiarly male behaviour.
 

Gone Critical

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This seems entirely possible....even likely for a group of males. I think the males here will remember being selective in our younger years about what we said in front of people in authority. I know I didnt swear in front of my mother until I was about 30, and if you asked her she would have probably sworn that i didnt swear...
Absolutely say nothing unless you have to. I remember my old man growing up in a house with his father a teetotalling Irishman. When he 1st had a drink he used to eat a bit of cypress bush before coming inside home. His mum passed when he was early 20's and he confessed to her before she went that he had partaken. His mum laughed and said she knew, said "everytime you went to the pub you came home smelling like the cypress".
 

sr36

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well i'm sorry. i havent done the course yet. i've been meaning to do it. i'll improve in the future
Which course is that? Life?

I wasn't coming from a politically correct perspective. My generalised stereotype is that woman are a damn site better at adjusting for different contexts than most men are, so I found it a strange thing to read.
 

Markfs

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Which course is that? Life?

I wasn't coming from a politically correct perspective. My generalised stereotype is that woman are a damn site better at adjusting for different contexts than most men are, so I found it a strange thing to read.
yes life... i don't hang out with girls much so i didnt want to impose negative stereotypes on the female population without any knowledge.

and i agree with you about women. you'll probably think i'm being sarcastic here but it's genuinely what i think - as a pretty useless powerless white male, I hope that women can take over running the world asap. Not only will the world run better, but on a personal level, it will provide me an excuse for my zero impact on the world
 
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Markfs

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Soz for the late reply Jmac, this bit is very very important. The intent.

Fair enough, some of those 'kids' calling HL by the nickname he afforded himself was wrong and they probably knew it, but as you speculate fairly there may have been no malice and neither HL or those players expected a different and highly sensationalized perspective much later on after the term of affection name calling racism occurred.

And this is what really grates me about victim hood, the most important bit, intent is rarely considered. The minute any one person unintentionally commits racism or discrimination they're branded as a bad person with no recourse.

Terms like 'unconscious bias' get thrown around in abundance but the two words seem antithetical. Bias gives the very impression of intent and victim seekers intend to use it that way, where as unconscious is completely unaware.
i like your post but i started thinking about that girl at the MCG in the Goodes incident and the explanations that i saw on the internet that she didnt know what she was saying.

The problem is that intent can be considered but it doesnt mean that it should be the major consideration. And I disagree that bias has to be conscious, because you can use a biased system and have a negative impact on others, and then throw up your hands and say you didnt know what was happening. Having said that, i'm not a big fan of calling all wrong doers racists, as i'm not sure what you then call people who really hate people with different skin colours.
 

sr36

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i like your post but i started thinking about that girl at the MCG in the Goodes incident and the explanations that i saw on the internet that she didnt know what she was saying.

The problem is that intent can be considered but it doesnt mean that it should be the major consideration. And I disagree that bias has to be conscious, because you can use a biased system and have a negative impact on others, and then throw up your hands and say you didnt know what was happening. Having said that, i'm not a big fan of calling all wrong doers racists, as i'm not sure what you then call people who really hate people with different skin colours.
Bias would be a better term in some instances, but what we're talking about in terms of systemic racism often isn't biased at all. It could be extremely positively intentioned - but using a crap process for conflict resolution that makes the situation worse for all concerned.

FWIW - I'm pretty confident that those of us who have taken a side (either side) in the H situation - based on the flimsiest of evidence - would be classified as guilty of systemic racism. Can't think of a worse response with more potential to be harmful when conflict occurs than automatically taking a side without knowing the full story. Extremely likely to be detrimental to POC - as well as others. Many all in brawls start as simple misunderstandings and then blow up becasue those who don't know the full story come in swinging with support for the side they think is right, or yell from the sidelines - encouraging their mate to have a fight.
 

TheGreatGrundy

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I would have thought part of the process would have been to interview past and present players (particularly indigenous) to and understanding of the challenges they felt and how things fell down. In Leon’s example, I thought it was important to understand how he went about confronting these issues and what a player in his position would have been more comfortable in doing.
I suppose the club already largely knew the areas for improvement even before the report was released. Maybe it’s the next step in formulating a process/policy whereby players like Leon will be interviewed. I like the fact Daniel Wells is part of the committee that will be responsible for this.
I am astounded if Leon Davis and Krakouer were not interviewed for the report. If the indigenous players, particularly the prominent, long term ones weren't interviewed, what was the point of doing the report? They wouldn't have discovered much about the predicament of indigenous players without actually talking to a few of them.
 

TheGreatGrundy

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Bias would be a better term in some instances, but what we're talking about in terms of systemic racism often isn't biased at all. It could be extremely positively intentioned - but using a crap process for conflict resolution that makes the situation worse for all concerned.

FWIW - I'm pretty confident that those of us who have taken a side (either side) in the H situation - based on the flimsiest of evidence - would be classified as guilty of systemic racism. Can't think of a worse response with more potential to be harmful when conflict occurs than automatically taking a side without knowing the full story. Extremely likely to be detrimental to POC - as well as others. Many all in brawls start as simple misunderstandings and then blow up becasue those who don't know the full story come in swinging with support for the side they think is right, or yell from the sidelines - encouraging their mate to have a fight.
Heritier could have given us more of the full story, but chose to instead give us unfounded accusations, refusals to negotiate and then law suits, while at the same time demanding an apology for God knows what. Alongside were details of strange behaviour and drug taking during the football season. Heritier hasn't so much been judged from the available evidence, but rather from the whole behaviour package presented to us by him and through other sources. There is a danger to making a decision without knowing the full story, but the story around and of the story is what I have judged him on, along with the total lack of evidence for his very few specific accusations. Some people force you to make a decision about their integrity and character without you truly having to consider the issue on which they are seeking to be judged. Heritier is one such person.
 
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Markfs

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Heritier could have given us more of the full story, but instead chose to instead give us unfounded accusations, refusals to negotiate and then law suits, while at the same time demanding an apology for God knows what. Alongside were details of strange behaviour and drug taking during the football season. Heritier hasn't so much been judged so much from the available evidence, but rather from the whole behaviour package presented to us by him and through other sources. There is a danger to making a decision without knowing the full story, but the story around and of the story is what I have judged him on, along with the total lack of evidence for his very few specific accusations. Some people force you to make a decision about their integrity and character without you truly having to consider the issue on which they are seeking to be judged. Heritier is one such person.
the decision to introduce policies, procedures and change culture is to get the right answer .... we dont need heritier for this. We have sufficient indigenous people around who want to help.

his matter is before the courts. we cant retrospectively engineer our policies/procedures, so the club deals with it.

Getting a good club policy wont solve the heritier issue. Making heritier happy wont give the club a good policy..
 

TheGreatGrundy

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the decision to introduce policies, procedures and change culture is to get the right answer .... we dont need heritier for this. We have sufficient indigenous people around who want to help.

his matter is before the courts. we cant retrospectively engineer our policies/procedures, so the club deals with it.

Getting a good club policy wont solve the heritier issue. Making heritier happy wont give the club a good policy..
I don't know what this has to do with my post but I hope you gained something from composing it.
 

sr36

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Heritier could have given us more of the full story, but instead chose to instead give us unfounded accusations, refusals to negotiate and then law suits, while at the same time demanding an apology for God knows what. Alongside were details of strange behaviour and drug taking during the football season. Heritier hasn't so much been judged so much from the available evidence, but rather from the whole behaviour package presented to us by him and through other sources. There is a danger to making a decision without knowing the full story, but the story around and of the story is what I have judged him on, along with the total lack of evidence for his very few specific accusations. Some people force you to make a decision about their integrity and character without you truly having to consider the issue on which they are seeking to be judged. Heritier is one such person.
For what it's worth, I think Hs actions should also be classified as structural racism under the report's definition. He responsed to a belief that he was ostracised for taking a stand against racism by going to the media and refusing attempts at mediation or understanding another point of view or someone else's half of the story. And then he continued to make the same angry claims without supporting them for the next 5 years, whipping his supporters up into a frenzy. It is about as inappropriate a response to a feeling that you can get. In terms of a practice to deal with racism - it's just so inappropriate and way more likely to be detrimental than positive. If his feelings are just in his own head and not justifiable - all he's done is make the people who he is pointing the finger at likely to be more wary, cautious and uncomfortable around POC. All he's done is damage race relationships and disadvantaged POC. If his feelings are not justified, all those who have jumped up and down and pointed in anger, without the utmost doubt at his claim, have done the same.

For me the line which is quite difficult to tread is one where we look at all the reasons to like and dislike Heritier, Nathan and Eddie and then decide they are telling the truth or not. I see no reason to believe H's claims, but I don't think we should disbelieve them other. The reality is that we all have no substantiated reason to know whether his version is contains truth or not.

The legal proceedings will probably force them into mediation. Hopefully both sides hear each other and make an attempt at understanding and empathy. I personally suspect that they're all essentially good people who have handled a situation really poorly. Most big stoushes involve error from both sides and I suspect that's the case here. But who knows. All we've got is HL sharing his belief angrily and accusingly over and over again - without any substance to support it and the Pies taking on silence after previously having defended themselves by making some pretty poor digs at HLs mental health. I suspect that if we define structural racism as practices that are likely to disadvantage people of colour, both HL, Collingwood and half of the nation are guilty of it in this case.
 
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ExcitementMachine

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I am astounded if Leon Davis and Krakouer were not interviewed for the report. If the indigenous players, particularly the prominent, long term ones weren't interviewed, what was the point of doing the report? They wouldn't have discovered much about the predicament of indigenous players without actually talking to a few of them.
Wasn't it indigenous activists who did the report?
 

sr36

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I am astounded if Leon Davis and Krakouer were not interviewed for the report. If the indigenous players, particularly the prominent, long term ones weren't interviewed, what was the point of doing the report? They wouldn't have discovered much about the predicament of indigenous players without actually talking to a few of them.
The point of the report wasn't to see if Collingwood was a club with a culture of racism. They weren't looking for more incidents than the previously known ones - that wasn't within the scope of the report. If it was those guys would have been interviewed without a doubt

Collingwood's reason for the report may be much more cynical, but from he point of view of the authors, the purpose of the review was to look at Collingwood's previous response to racism - responses to a number of high profile incidents - and to advise us towards better practice in how we respond to racism. In terms of indigenous players - I assume they would have requested to interview the central figures in these incidents - Winmar, Goodes, Long, but I'm not sure how Leon or Krak are relevant to the incidents or could offer a great deal of insight into Collingwood's response to these incidents- were either of them even at the club during Collingwood's response to the incidents that were reviewed?

This wasn't a wholistc review into the extent of direct and indirect racism that has historically existed at Collingwood. If it was, Leon, Krak, Wellingham, Varcoe, etc would have been amongst the first names on the interview request list, but personally I'd be talking first to a bloke like Kirk Ugle - in the context of a sports team, contributing stars are far less likely to be racially excluded than the blokes on the edge of the list. If it was a wholistic review, I daresay the review would have been a whole lot bleaker - and not even Eddie would have dared to be proud. This was a review of how we responded to some incidents with recommendations about how we can respond better in the future.
 
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HeathComeBack

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Heritier could have given us more of the full story, but chose to instead give us unfounded accusations, refusals to negotiate and then law suits, while at the same time demanding an apology for God knows what. Alongside were details of strange behaviour and drug taking during the football season. Heritier hasn't so much been judged from the available evidence, but rather from the whole behaviour package presented to us by him and through other sources. There is a danger to making a decision without knowing the full story, but the story around and of the story is what I have judged him on, along with the total lack of evidence for his very few specific accusations. Some people force you to make a decision about their integrity and character without you truly having to consider the issue on which they are seeking to be judged. Heritier is one such person.
You may have posted this same post 50 times in this thread. we kind of get your opinion on HL
 

TheGreatGrundy

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The point of the report wasn't to see if Collingwood was a club with a culture of direct racism. They weren't looking for more incidents than the previously known ones - that wasn't within the scope of the report.

Collingwood's reason for the report may be much more cynical, but from he point of view of the authors, the purpose of the review was to look at Collingwood's previous response to racism - responses to a number of high profile incidents - and to advise us towards better practice in how we respond to racism. In terms of indigenous players - I assume they would have requested to interview the central figures in these incidents - Winmar, Goodes, Long, but I'm not sure how Leon or Krak are particularly relevant to the incidents or could offer a great deal of insight into Collingwood's response to these incidents- were either of them even at the club during Collingwood's response to the incidents that were reviewed?

This wasn't a wholistc review into the extent of direct and indirect racism that has historically existed at Collingwood. If it was, Leon, Krak, Wellingham, Varcoe, etc would have been amongst the first names on the interview request list. If it was a wholistic review, I daresay the review would have been a whole lot bleaker - and not even Eddie would have dared to be proud. This was a review of how we responded to some incidents with recommendations about how we can respond better in the future.
To be frank, the significance of the report's findings are starting to resemble a helium filled balloon floating off into the sky. At one time, I believed I had a fairly firm grasp on the string, but over time my grip failed and the balloon is rapidly receding from sight.

If the review delved deeply as far back as Winmar and Syd Jackson, but ignored players actually at the club, particularly in recent times, then the significance of its findings elude me. I don't understand why the media and lots of incensed individuals seized upon the report and were so outraged by Eddie's 'proud moment' statement if all that the findings basically delivered was an acknowledgement of the existence of systemic racism, without fixing points on a timeline or indicating any instance of anyone at the club actually suffering from its effects.

By all means, institute all 18 recommendations and make Collingwood the model of how to conduct an organisation providing equal opportunity for everyone along with systems of appeal for anyone who feels even slightly aggrieved by the club's actions and policies. No one wants to be a follower of a club that is reputed to discriminate against or disadvantage people of colour.
 

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