How the hell does Kroger have any influence over the party?
Imagine actually bringing Tony Abbott back.
Imagine actually bringing Tony Abbott back.
RIP Jim Molan
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Big Papa Ted
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Do you have any evidence that Molan explicitly tasked subordinates to kill civilians? Not a case where he authorised a mission where civilians might be collateral, but where he specifically gave orders to kill civilians?
If not, I believe the precedent is that you have 24 hours to provide evidence or retract your statement, otherwise you should be threadbanned and receive an infraction for spreading misinformation.
Also lol at all the military experts in this thread. At every command level battle group and above, there will be a lawyer informing the commander on all military operations, and whether they meet the principles of jus in bello under the laws of armed conflict. Also I don't think any of you realise how difficult it is to clear and hold urban terrain, let alone doing so while minimising civilian casualties; which was always a coalition aim.
Hate Jim Molan for his politics all you want, but honestly the amount of people bush-lawyering it and talking out their arse is unbelievable.
It's not hard at all to substantiate my brother. The Vietnam Veterans had been ostracised from the RSL because they didn't fight in a "real war". They were treated shamefully by the politicians that sent them there and they were spate at, called baby killers and had pigs blood thrown over them. I have first hand accounts from those who were on the receiving end.
Australians in general didn't mind our troops being sent to Vietnam initially but when they saw the atrocities on their TVs, that changed.
Troops from the country and regional areas were mainly welcomed home by those citizens, the city one copped s**t. No all of them of course, that would be a gross exaggeration but it is also a gross exaggeration to say that the contempt and ridicule that many of the soldiers experienced when they got home was "exaggerated".
There are some who reckon that PTSD amongst Vietnam veterans was exaggerated. From my own experiences with Vietnam vets both from a personal point of view, that is knowing them well, to having them as work colleagues and working in rehab with a number of them coming in as the general public, I can honestly say that there is something "not quite right" with them and I don't mean that in a derogatory way at all. They just seem distant and melancholy and some are/were prone to fits of anger and/or depression, a lot of the time one of those states followed immediately by the other.
I am not familiar with Jeffrey Grey's works but I do know that he was born in 1959 which means he was six when his father, a career Military man from a long line of Military men in the family, went to Vietnam as the Commanding Officer of the 7th Battalion. Coming from a Military Family and being steeped in Military dogma, for want of a better word, his body of work may have been influenced by his upbringing. It is also just as possible that it wasn't of course but he had been in that Military stream from it seems cradle to military education education to a doctorate at Duntroon.
What I am saying is that just like those who served in the First World War who did not want to talk about the Great War, non contemporaneous study of the Vietnam War other than the conduct of battles on the battleground, can be misrepresentative of what was actually happening in the lives of those soldiers both on the battlefield and upon return.
Dapin I think it was said that even the protestors themselves didn't admit that they spat and abused the returned soldiers. Well what does he think they are going to say all these years later, "yeah, I spat at 'em, called 'em baby killers ..."?
Vietnam was a most shameful episode in our History.
Explained way better than my efforts.
Civilians just dont get how harsh the geneva convention is.
Its not a police code of conduct.
Wait till these guys find out what happens to looters if they declare martial law in Australia in an emergency and bring troops in to restore order.
No, it was not a myth.One of the biggest war related myths in existence. It was a slur made up years after the conflict to denigrate the anti war movement. No recorded instances of a soldier being spat on.
The Spitting Image - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
Have a think about it. A fully trained combat soldier, fresh out back from Vietnam, is approached by a long haired hippie and spat on and called “baby killer”. Really? If the spitting didn’t make a news headline or police report then the brawl that would’ve started when the soldier punches the hippie square in the face would have. But it was never recorded to have happened.
Soldiers were in the jungles griped by terror one minute and a few hours later, they were landing in Australia and told to go their own way.
Put yourself in their shoes. It was traumatising. They had no access to therapy, they were rejected by he RSL because they "didn't fight in a real war" and predominantly in the cities, they were abused and harangued in the streets and the pubs, they were spat on and called all sorts of things.
Whilst it is true that the right wingers wanted to denigrate the anti-war movement by painting them as commis etc etc etc and trying to pin copious amounts of vile actions on them, some protestors did spit at soldiers and say things to them that were vile and did throw blood over them but here's the thing, the anti-war protests, the marches were nowhere near soldiers; it was away from these marches where "gangs"?, probably not a good description but it will suffice of Uni students and mates would come across lads in uniform and those they knew had been to Vietnam and gave them what fore.
To say that it's a myth that soldiers were spat on and abused by wound up anti-war protestors is a myth in itself.
We don't want to fall into "soldiers v anti-war protestors" rhetoric. What we need to acknowledge is that the Vietnam War, like all wars, are a blight on humanity and that those who are sent to fight, usually the poor, certainly not the well healed in the main, they too have suffered from Imperial machinations.
I think that some people with the best of intentions, have a utopian concept about the rules of engagement in war.
Commanders in the field do what is required and soldiers follow those instructions; that is what they are trained to do.
We have a case now before the courts where a highly decorated soldier is accused of committing crimes upon civilians in Afghanistan where violent actions as those he is accused of, were neither necessary nor were done in defence of himself or his men and if they are proven, then he must go to jail as a war criminal. What is preposterous though, is that Generals, commanders, leaders in the field be accused of crimes against humanity when they are waging a war against an enemy who, given the chance, would engage in the same way as those who are stalking them.
Those who are rightly outraged at war, should be condemning politicians and weapons manufacturers and those who profit from armaments and war and not those who are sent to fight.
It's a Party of the rich and the shakers 'n' movers. Kroger, like Jones, Chris Kenny, Andrew Bolt etc etc are IPA stalwarts and the Liberal Party is their stooge.
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- Kidding, right?
I totally agree Vietnam was a most shameful episode in our history but I think you should read Grey’s research. I’d be interested to see your response.
- Jul 5, 2012
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- Kidding, right?
He’s asked a simple question that you don’t want to answer.
- Jan 12, 2011
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Ok, but its not me trying to justify the indiscriminate slaughter of innocent civilians.....it's you
Most people would accept it is wrong....but you just brush it aside as a minor inconvenience of war
Shame on you
Big Papa Ted
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- #61
No one is justifying the "indiscriminate slaughter of innocent civilians". Every decision is based on the considerations of discrimination and proportionality under the concept of jus in bello. Again, military leaders have legal counsel advising them of this at all times. If there was the indiscriminate killing of civilians, there'd be war trials, see the current investigation into SASR as an example of this.
Save your pearl clutchting and false sense of moral superiority for something you have a clue about it. This isn't it.
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“Indiscriminate slaughter” lol.
Big Papa Ted
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IMO I don't think military personnel should jump into politics, and they definitely shouldn't be involved with anything to do with defence as a politician.
I don't rate Jim Molan as a bloke/politician in the slightest. But slurring his name by calling him essentially a civilian killing murderer without a shred of evidence isn't fair.
- Jan 12, 2011
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What a disgrace you are...delete your account
Again with indiscriminate.
Indiscriminate is pulverising an entire city like the Russians are doing.
Allowing every chance for people to leave and using artillery to destroy buildings you are being shot at from isnt indiscriminate .
<<<
An attack of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objectswithout discrimination, i.e. an attack which
- is not directed at a specific military objective (or person);
- employs a method or means of warfarewhich cannot be directed at a specific military objective (or person); or
- employs a method or means of combat the effects of which cannot be limited as required by international humanitarian law.
- an attack by bombardment, by any means or method which treats as a single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located in a city, town, village or other area containing similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects;
- an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the tangible and direct military advantage anticipated.>>>
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The Green war machine is still strong in this one
The ADF love people like you
"Hey soldier go over there and kill that guy"
"Yes sir...just the one?"
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Enablers of people like Molan
Again with indiscriminate.
Indiscriminate is pulverising an entire city like the Russians are doing.
Allowing every chance for people to leave and using artillery to destroy buildings you are being shot at from isnt indiscriminate .
<<<
An attack of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objectswithout discrimination, i.e. an attack which
- is not directed at a specific military objective (or person);
- employs a method or means of warfarewhich cannot be directed at a specific military objective (or person); or
- employs a method or means of combat the effects of which cannot be limited as required by international humanitarian law.
- an attack by bombardment, by any means or method which treats as a single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located in a city, town, village or other area containing similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects;
- an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the tangible and direct military advantage anticipated.>>>
Ive posted the rules before, ill post them again:
<<<
IHL prohibits attacks directed against civilians, as well as indiscriminate attacks, namely those that strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction. Principle of proportionality: IHL prohibits attacks that may be expected to cause excessive incidental civilian harm in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated. In the conduct of hostilities, causing incidental harm to civilians and civilian objects is often unavoidable.
However, IHL places a limit on the extent of incidental harm that is permissible by spelling out how military necessity and considerations of humanity must be balanced in such situations. Principle of precaution: In the conduct of military operations, constant care must be taken to spare the civilian population, civilians and civilian objects. All feasible precautions must be taken to avoid, and in any event to minimize, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects.
Given the significant risk of harm to civilians whenever the military is executing an attack, IHL imposes detailed obligations to those planning, deciding on or carrying out attacks. It also requires parties to the conflict to protect civilians and civilian objects under their control against the effects of attacks. >>>
More: Frequently asked questions on the rules of war
Dude your army isnt going to perform very well in the real world. Even the russians will spank your mob.
Big Papa Ted
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- #71
Please, feel free to educate us on just war theory and the laws of armed conflict.
Or are you just font to continue throwing out hysteria with zero evidence, logic or credibility?
- Jan 12, 2011
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While your hero's like Molan and BRS bring shame to all of us
Your values are in the toilet
- Jan 12, 2011
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Why are you still here, I told you to delete your account
This thread has gone from accusations of breaking the rules of war and war crimes which i countered by posting the ACTUAL rules - which show molan acted within those rules.
To the vibe of the thing…..
To the vibe of the thing…..
