RIP Jim Molan

[sherb]

Hes doing what molan did - of course they are his own cities.

While his country is under relentless attack. And while he is still there. And very likely while he is personally a Russian target.

Molan wasn't in that situation, unless Australia was invaded and Molan was making decisions to protect his country from a bunker in Canberra and I missed it all.

That's why the Zelensy reference doesn't belong here. You're comparing apples to kiwifruit.

 

[Gethelred]

Alright. Several things.

Jim Molan is considered to be behind both the planning of Operation Fury and the direction of it. The following link attest to this:

Aleppo and Fallujah. (Repost from 30 December 2016) - Pearls and Irritations

In light of the civilian disaster unfolding presently in Aleppo, it is timely to revisit the uncontradicted claims unwarranted action against civilians in Fallujah supervised by Australian military commander, Jim Molan. This piece was first published in 2008. If correct, the claims are an...

johnmenadue.com

There is confirmation that civilians were permitted to leave the city in the following links, but several different versions exist:
- multiple sources state that around 300,000 thousand women, children and elderly were permitted to leave the city.

With Airpower and Armor, Troops Enter Rebel-Held City (Published 2004)

American forces have sent thousands of troops into neighborhoods considered to be the center of the Iraqi insurgency.

www.nytimes.com

- but there are also multiple different media reports that state that men between the ages of 18-45 were not permitted to leave the city as refugees.

US troops ban men from entering, leaving Fallujah

US troops have banned men aged from 15 to 50 from entering or leaving the Iraqi rebel-held city of Fallujah, warning they could become a target ahead of an expected military offensive.

www.abc.net.au

U.S. Won't Let Men Flee Fallujah

Hundreds of men trying to flee the assault on Fallujah have been turned back by U.

www.foxnews.com

The John Menedue source - written by Chris Doran - includes the following passage:

Molan has just released a book, entitled Running the War in Iraq. An edited extract from the book, “Reality of Collateral Damage” appeared in The Australian on July 19 [2008].

General Molan’s excerpt is a highly sanitised version of what actually occurred under his command. Molan’s account suggests that the attack on Fallujah, codenamed Operation Fury, was little more than a few surgical missile strikes which unfortunately and only occasionally resulted in civilian deaths.

He conveniently omits the fact that an estimated 30,000 to 50,000 civilians still remained in Fallujah when the attack began. Citizens had been instructed to evacuate the city, population 250,000, before bombing began in October 2004, but any and all men aged 15 to 45 were prohibited from leaving. Many family members understandably chose to stay with their fathers and brothers. Once the bombing began, all exits out of the city were sealed off.

While kranky al has correctly stated the nature of an open combat situation, it is an acceptable position based on available information that the attacks on the city were made against civilians, and were ordered by Molan. There's also the fact that such situations are by their very nature morally grey; war is hardly a morally straightforward endeavour at the best of times.

The nature of this forum is such that disagreement will occur, but perhaps a group of posters on this forum could use the report function as opposed to attempting to publicly call me out. In future, such attempts to do so will result in immediate infractions.

Other posters could also do with acknowledging the limits of their knowledge as it pertains to some things, as well as enunciating fully their objection to something in an appropriate way.

 

[kranky al]

While his country is under relentless attack. And while he is still there. And very likely while he is personally a Russian target.

Molan wasn't in that situation, unless Australia was invaded and Molan was making decisions to protect his country from a bunker in Canberra and I missed it all.

That's why the Zelensy reference doesn't belong here. You're comparing apples to kiwifruit.m

Last i checked we were discussing war crimes.

You can commit war crimes upon your own people, you know that dont you?

Saddam on iraqi kurds springs to mind.

 

[sherb]

Last i checked we were discussing war crimes.

You can commit war crimes upon your own people, you know that dont you?

Saddam on iraqi kurds springs to mind.

Yes, allegedly by Molan.

It shows the weakness of your argument that you had to defend it by bringing in Zelensky, the bloke who is doing his best to defend his country which is under attack by an actual war criminal.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Actually if you read it again without your little rage glasses on i said nothing of the kind.

When your argument consists of lamely trying to put words in someone elses mouth you know the argument is lost.

<<<Like being burnt with phosphorus is worse than being burnt by magnesium or napalm or petroleum jelly or any of the other myriad weapons systems man in his c}#%ishness has invented to burn people.>>>

Yes, exactly, you admitted it right there! Seriously, this is one of stupidest arguments I've ever had the misfortune to be involved in.

Good coz he said nothing of the sort.

Gosh, are you even reading the same comment?

 

[kranky al]

Yes, exactly, you admitted it right there! Seriously, this is one of stupidest arguments I've ever had the misfortune to be involved in.


Gosh, are you even reading the same comment?

The comment with a disguised c bomb describing the designers of those weapons

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Gosh, are you even reading the same comment?

Yes. You claim he said some chemical weapons are “not that bad”.

He said nothing of the sort. He said all the weapons we use are bad.

 

[Big Papa Ted]

Alright. Several things.

Jim Molan is considered to be behind both the planning of Operation Fury and the direction of it. The following link attest to this:

Aleppo and Fallujah. (Repost from 30 December 2016) - Pearls and Irritations

In light of the civilian disaster unfolding presently in Aleppo, it is timely to revisit the uncontradicted claims unwarranted action against civilians in Fallujah supervised by Australian military commander, Jim Molan. This piece was first published in 2008. If correct, the claims are an...

johnmenadue.com

There is confirmation that civilians were permitted to leave the city in the following links, but several different versions exist:
- multiple sources state that around 300,000 thousand women, children and elderly were permitted to leave the city.

With Airpower and Armor, Troops Enter Rebel-Held City (Published 2004)

American forces have sent thousands of troops into neighborhoods considered to be the center of the Iraqi insurgency.

www.nytimes.com

- but there are also multiple different media reports that state that men between the ages of 18-45 were not permitted to leave the city as refugees.

US troops ban men from entering, leaving Fallujah

US troops have banned men aged from 15 to 50 from entering or leaving the Iraqi rebel-held city of Fallujah, warning they could become a target ahead of an expected military offensive.

www.abc.net.au

U.S. Won't Let Men Flee Fallujah

Hundreds of men trying to flee the assault on Fallujah have been turned back by U.

www.foxnews.com

The John Menedue source - written by Chris Doran - includes the following passage:


While kranky al has correctly stated the nature of an open combat situation, it is an acceptable position based on available information that the attacks on the city were made against civilians, and were ordered by Molan. There's also the fact that such situations are by their very nature morally grey; war is hardly a morally straightforward endeavour at the best of times.

The nature of this forum is such that disagreement will occur, but perhaps a group of posters on this forum could use the report function as opposed to attempting to publicly call me out. In future, such attempts to do so will result in immediate infractions.

Other posters could also do with acknowledging the limits of their knowledge as it pertains to some things, as well as enunciating fully their objection to something in an appropriate way.

I don't disagree with much if this, just want to raise two points:

1. Alot of people really need to read the bottom paragraph. The number of people wading in swinging while not having the slightest understanding of international law, the principles of just war and military operations is astounding.

2. Its important to contextualise why fighting age men weren't allowed to leave Fallujah. Essentially it boils down to the nature of insurgency/counter insurgency operations, and the way a cordon and sweep operation is done. Feel free to read up on it....or continue getting upset about something you haven't bothered to try understand.

 

[Gethelred]

Its important to contextualise why fighting age men weren't allowed to leave Fallujah. Essentially it boils down to the nature of insurgency/counter insurgency operations, and the way a cordon and sweep operation is done. Feel free to read up on it....or continue getting upset about something you haven't bothered to try understand.

On one hand, I really struggle with this. I find this to be an abhorrent doctrine; if your men can't leave, why in utter * would you ever surrender, put down your guns and try for peace? If I were a woman in that environment and my father, husband or son was unable to leave, ******* hand me a rifle. * you for telling me my family's a risk you cannot afford to take.

On the other hand, I also recognise that during the immediate 50 years - pretty much since the failed invasion of Afghanistan by Russia - guerilla warfare dictates that when outmatched, you fight like rats. You wear civilian clothing; you pretend right up until the trap is ready to be sprung and you hit them as hard as you can while you can to beat your opponents. So, if your opponents refuse to give you a pitched battle and choose to fight in this way, you have no recourse than to prevent any other means of combat; if your opponents simply fade into the desert, force them to stay where you can see them within the walls of a city.

I don't have the answers here. War is a struggle between effectiveness and our inner monster, and there's no correct answers that don't result in an awful lot of people who shouldn't have been involved dead.

 

[Northalives]

I totally agree Vietnam was a most shameful episode in our history but I think you should read Grey’s research. I’d be interested to see your response.

I will add that to my list of books to read and I will read it.

 

[EagleMan87]

Last i checked we were discussing war crimes.

You can commit war crimes upon your own people, you know that dont you?

Saddam on iraqi kurds springs to mind.

Which war crimes has Zelensky been accused of ordering, especially against his own citizens?

 

[Gethelred]

Zelensky isn't relevant to this thread. From here, references to him will be deleted.

Cheers all.

 

[kranky al]

Zelensky isn't relevant to this thread. From here, references to him will be deleted.

Cheers all.

Unputin?

Can we talk about unputin

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

The Iraq war, Fallujah and Jim Molan - Pearls and Irritations

The late Jim Molan will be remembered for many things. Far too few will remember well documented allegations of serious atrocities in Iraq.

johnmenadue.com

 

[DaRick]

Charitably, we can say that he served his country without getting a dishonorable discharge. And no doubt the people who did genuinely love him, like certainly family members, are sad about, or at least not particularly satisfied with, his passing. Much like I wasn't thrilled to hear of my grandparents passing even though I generally disliked my grandfather and didn't really care for my grandmother. I imagine that I wouldn't be particularly satisfied to hear of Jim Molan's passing if I was related to him.

Sadly, the quality of Australia's political discourse, and indeed the Australian population, have both remained unaffected by his passing - putting it charitably.

 

[DaRick]

Albo has more respect for a war criminal than the people living in poverty in this so called country

What's interesting about Albo's response is not what he said (just generic boilerplate crap) but what he didn't say.

He mentions that Molan was a man of principle, but he never explained which of those principles was actually good. From an ALP perspective, I reckon that Albo was broadly unimpressed by Molan's 'principles'.

 

[Schneebly11]

Molan's Legacy:

Fallujah: New kind of siege

Doctors and residents blame US weapons for catastrophic levels of birth defects in Fallujah’s newborns.

www.aljazeera.com

While the US military has formally withdrawn from Iraq, doctors and residents of Fallujah are blaming weapons like depleted uranium and white phosphorous used during two devastating US attacks on Fallujah in 2004 for what are being described as “catastrophic” levels of birth defects and abnormalities.

Dr Alani told Al Jazeera that in the vast majority of cases she has documented, the family had no prior history of congenital abnormalities.

Alani showed Al Jazeera hundreds of photos of babies born with cleft palates, elongated heads, a baby born with one eye in the centre of its face, overgrown limbs, short limbs, and malformed ears, noses and spines.

She told Al Jazeera of cases of “thanatophoric dysplasia”, an abnormality in bones and the thoracic cage that “render the newborn incompatible with life”.

In July 2010, Busby released a study that showed a 12-fold increase in childhood cancer in Fallujah since the 2004 attacks.

Dr Alani visited Japan recently, where she met with Japanese doctors who study birth defect rates they believe related to radiation from the US nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

She was told birth defect incidence rates there are between 1-2 per cent. Alani’s log of cases of birth defects amounts to a rate of 14.7 per cent of all babies born in Fallujah, more than 14 times the rate in the affected areas of Japan.

Rest in Piss Molan

 

[Schneebly11]

Charitably, we can say that he served his country without getting a dishonorable discharge.

Maybe if he had done the honorable thing and protested the Iraq War, or refused to use depleted Uranium and white phosphorous in Fallujah he would have gotten a dishonorable discharge. Which would've been a good thing. All this tells me is he was a willing participant in the war machine. Nothing honorable in that.

 

[DaRick]

Maybe if he had done the honorable thing and protested the Iraq War, or refused to use depleted Uranium and white phosphorous in Fallujah he would have gotten a dishonorable discharge. Which would've been a good thing. All this tells me is he was a willing participant in the war machine. Nothing honorable in that.

You missed the word 'charitably'.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

I guess every single general who has taken a city is a war criminal then.

Best we just leave cities full of enemy combatants to themselves as under the gralin doctrine, despite dropping flyers, using loudspeakers, tv and radio for days informing noncombatants that unrestricted warfare was about to happen - we cant enter a city any more.

Looks like ukraine is going to have a hard time, might as well stop where they are as the gralin doctrine forbids anything thst might kill civilians.

Thank christ you werent around in ww2 or the germans would have won with us having one hand tied behind our backs while hitlers lads have free reign.

In Iraq we were the Germans

 

[kranky al]

In Iraq we were the Germans

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Albanese's euology about Jim Molan is making me feel sick and Dutton's is a sick joke.