List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

[raffrox]

St Kilda didn't have a problem scoring or going inside 50. Keep beating your drum..

Wow. So I make a comment about wishing we took the game on more in the second half and that i think we have had forward line issues for years and youve got a problem with it?

How am I going to get to sleep tonight?

 

[Unique Name]

Come now.

Im happy with our current progress this year and all the rest, but...

Clarkson has owned Ross for years.

Clarkson is rock to Ross' scissors and you know it.

Last year I thought the losses to Hawks and Brissy were the two worst games of the season. (Worse than the Geelong fiasco). We should have been competitive at home and we weren't even close.

This year we get Hawks away at the Southpole. We should be able to beat that side on paper (depending on injuries). Will this be the year we start turning tide?

I want to say yes. It'll be a big tick for Ross and the side if we get it done.

 

[raffrox]

Last year I thought the losses to Hawks and Brissy were the two worst games of the season. (Worse than the Geelong fiasco). We should have been competitive at home and we weren't even close.

This year we get Hawks away at the Southpole. We should be able to beat that side on paper (depending on injuries). Will this be the year we start turning tide?

I want to say yes. It'll be a big tick for Ross and the side if we get it done.

Nothing would make me happier than for us to play a game similar to the one we played against the Roos and have us beat the Hawks by 10+ goals.

 

[PurpleEyes]

I know. Always has under Ross. Always.

Again, that's why we lost the 2013 grand final.

Im hoping that it changes eventually but its always been the knock on Ross.

Id prefer to have lost by a bit more and maybe given our forwards more of a chance in the second half.

And what data do you have to support this argument?
Because from what I have seen, Freo's forward efficiency was extremely good in 2013 (as was St Kilda's during the height of Ross Lyon's tenure).

The problem was, Hawthorn's was better. The dominant Hawthorn team of 2013-2015 had some of the highest goal/i50 conversion rates you are likely to see. The continual comparison of Fremantle(/Ross Lyon) to that Hawthorn team is a flawed argument.
For example, in 2013, Hawthorn finished the season with a goal per i50 ratio of 29.7%. Freo's was 28.2% for 2013. The most recent premiers have had season conversion rates of; 2018 WC 25.1%, 2017 RI 23.7% & 2016 WB 22.8%.
Also, Hawthorn's conversion rates since their 3peat have been; 2016 26.1%, 2017 25.7%, 2018 23.8% and is currently in 2019 at 23.3%. So was it Clarkson's coaching or his list ... or the combination of the two ... similar to what we have seen with Freo/Ross Lyon?
Freo's current 2019 conversion is 21.6% but our opposition in our games so far has been 16.8% (19.5% vs 16.5% excluding our Round1 NM big win).
During our best years 2013-2015 our goal conversion per i50 rate was +25%, but our oppositions was also +22%. That is, if Freo/Ross Lyon is going to modify the game plan to score more efficiently, you need to accept we will also be scored against more easily (eg. Hawthorn's 2013 opposition's conversion rate was +25%).

 

[raffrox]

And what data do you have to support this argument?
Because from what I have seen, Freo's forward efficiency was extremely good in 2013 (as was St Kilda's during the height of Ross Lyon's tenure).

The problem was, Hawthorn's was better. The dominant Hawthorn team of 2013-2015 had some of the highest goal/i50 conversion rates you are likely to see. The continual comparison of Fremantle(/Ross Lyon) to that Hawthorn team is a flawed argument.
For example, in 2013, Hawthorn finished the season with a goal per i50 ratio of 29.7%. Freo's was 28.2% for 2013. The most recent premiers have had season conversion rates of; 2018 WC 25.1%, 2017 RI 23.7% & 2016 WB 22.8%.
Also, Hawthorn's conversion rates since their 3peat have been; 2016 26.1%, 2017 25.7%, 2018 23.8% and is currently in 2019 at 23.3%. So was it Clarkson's coaching or his list ... or the combination of the two ... similar to what we have seen with Freo/Ross Lyon?
Freo's current 2019 conversion is 21.6% but our opposition in our games so far has been 16.8% (19.5% vs 16.5% excluding our Round1 NM big win).
During our best years 2013-2015 our goal conversion per i50 rate was +25%, but our oppositions was also +22%. That is, if Freo/Ross Lyon is going to modify the game plan to score more efficiently, you need to accept we will also be scored against more easily (eg. Hawthorn's 2013 opposition's conversion rate was +25%).

How about win-loss record Clarkson vs Ross? Thats my stat. I haven't looked it up but bet its not that flash.

 

[Unique Name]

How about win-loss record Clarkson vs Ross? Thats my stat. I haven't looked it up but bet its not that flash.

Even before Ross it wasn't flash.


Played Hawks 35 times.
8 wins
27 losses.

 

[PurpleEyes]

How about win-loss record Clarkson vs Ross? Thats my stat. I haven't looked it up but bet its not that flash.

So I produce data that shows comparisons of Freo to Hawthorn are flawed given Hawthorn were simply an extraordinary team ... and what do you do ... you double down with another nonsense question asking to compare Freo to Hawthorn.

Your anti-Lyon delusion may be clouding your ability to look at this topic logically.

And for the record;
Lyon has coached 12 seasons, 17 games vs Clarkson for 4 Wins, 1 Draw, 12 Losses.
Hawthorn has finished the season ranked higher in 10 of the 12 seasons, or 15 of the 17 games. That is, the Hawks were the better team in the vast majority of those games. In the 2 games when St Kilda finished the season better than the Hawks; 2010 R17 SK drew and in 2009 R19 SK won.
Hawks have played just 4 of those 17 games on away from home grounds.
Again, comparisons between the two teams and coaches is simply a nonsense discussion entertained by desperate Lyon haters.

 

[Purple Jesus]

Nah, I'll have a crack at you having a crack right now thanks.

I’ll have a crack at you having a crack at him having a crack while smoking some crack.

 

[dockerfemme]

I continue to be impressed with Lyon's development of players like Nyhuis, Cerra and Brayshaw, Taberner and Pearce as well, and would add to that Hughes, Duman and Darcy. Too many to mention. Especially impressive given that this was an area that some thought he was deficient in as a coach. But they will move onto other things (see Raffrox's post above) .

It is seriously impressive to see how well this coach implements processes to take them from fledgling footballers to productive players with the ability to play a diversity of roles.

Lyon's management of Nyhuis deserves extra accolade. From being a player that some people may have thought was delist material, he has transformed him into someone vying for a best 22 position.

I am interested by your views.

I feel it is very hard to determine what is natural development, and what is above and beyond.

I certainly think the club’s development of Tabs has been great. I also think the club’s handling of Ed Langdon has been excellent. His strengths are well utilised and he understands his role well. There are others too.

On the other hand, I think Sam Collins was a better footballer in 2016 than 2017, and is now doing OK at Gold Coast. Crozier has become a good hbf at the Dogs and was no more than just OK with us.

How can this be assessed?

 

[arsesmart]

I am interested by your views.

I feel it is very hard to determine what is natural development, and what is above and beyond.

I certainly think the club’s development of Tabs has been great. I also think the club’s handling of Ed Langdon has been excellent. His strengths are well utilised and he understands his role well. There are others too.

On the other hand, I think Sam Collins was a better footballer in 2016 than 2017, and is now doing OK at Gold Coast. Crozier has become a good hbf at the Dogs and was no more than just OK with us.

How can this be assessed?

With all the crack talk if you don't mind I might barge in and have bit of a crack at that one.

A lot of context gets lost around Crozier and he's an interesting case study in development and how luck and team requirements can have a substantial impact.

Inspired by Fyfe across the 2016 preseason Crozier did a lot of work with the aim of both strength and tank building to go to the next level. He was played across half-back and was really good both with his intensity and creativity, especially early doors and was moved on to the wing here and there too. He looked to be ready to go to the next level, and he was covering that transition well.

Come 2017 however, with Ballantyne's LTI and the gap in the smalling forward role, Crozier was deemed the best placed to slot into that role and Weller was shifted onto the attacking HBF role. He did ok, but obviously didn't have the same number of opportunities to get involved in the play and it was hard to see the same development promise. Of course the next season he was off to the Bulldogs and back to the HBF where he has a better chance to grow into the role.

As for Sam Collins, I think it's really hard to say whether he was a better player, not having played before here and then being starved of opportunities by Hamling's arrival. It seemed he lacked positional flexibility (maybe too large a crack), so he was a bit like the second wicky.

 

[LeftFootBanana]

Both Crozier and Collins were flip of the coin delists for me. Crozier had played 69 games for us but never really nailed down a spot. Who would he replace in the current 22? He didn't really have the closing speed to be a pressure small forward or the kicking game to be an elite backline distributor. He'd probably be another guy who was borderline but not good enough in any particular area to be a lock.

Sam Collins is a good defender but there's no way he would keep Hamling or Pearce out of the team. Logue is a #8 draft pick so there's no chance he's staying at Peel long term. That would put Collins even further down the pecking order. And then there's Cox as well.

I'm actually glad both guys have been given opportunities elsewhere.

 

[raffrox]

So I produce data that shows comparisons of Freo to Hawthorn are flawed given Hawthorn were simply an extraordinary team ... and what do you do ... you double down with another nonsense question asking to compare Freo to Hawthorn.

Your anti-Lyon delusion may be clouding your ability to look at this topic logically.

And for the record;
Lyon has coached 12 seasons, 17 games vs Clarkson for 4 Wins, 1 Draw, 12 Losses.
Hawthorn has finished the season ranked higher in 10 of the 12 seasons, or 15 of the 17 games. That is, the Hawks were the better team in the vast majority of those games. In the 2 games when St Kilda finished the season better than the Hawks; 2010 R17 SK drew and in 2009 R19 SK won.
Hawks have played just 4 of those 17 games on away from home grounds.
Again, comparisons between the two teams and coaches is simply a nonsense discussion entertained by desperate Lyon haters.

Logically Clarkson is a better coach than Ross. Logically Ross' systems have struggled against Clarkson's. Take the 2015 prelim (but Fyfe was injured, but, but, but). We aimed to restrict their shots on goal but the efficient team still won.

Here have a read: https://www.afl.com.au/match-centre/2015/26/fre-v-haw

Again, you like using stats that apparently prove your point. There is usually a suspect causal relationship between what you state and what you think it means. If you can't admit that Clarkson's game plan has been shown to be superior to Ross' then any kind of rational conversation is very, very unlikely. I don't care what stats/excuses you show. The fact that I'm stating the dead set obvious that 90% of footy fans would agree with and that you still can't bring yourself to see it is laughable.

I have been critical of the club overall and I stand by that. As an entity over the years it has largely under performed. Now again, feel free to show me stats why I am wrong.

I'm saying these things because I would like success and for our club to stand tall. No excuses.

You've always got an excuse for the team.

I've said plenty of positive things about the team and Ross as of late and we are moving in the right direction. In my opinion though there were elements of last weekends game which were a step backwards. When the system was challenged we went more defensive until it was too late. Stress tests are crucial to determining if something works. We learn something and I would have liked something different to have been tried in the second half. That's not the end of the world and I'm bloody well able to have my opinion.

The fact that I still get attacked for saying "outlandish" things like there is a history of our Ross coached teams having issues going forward and that skill based teams that can move the ball efficiently (i.e. Clarkson's teams) usually cut us up shows who has the 'agendas' and the delusions around here.

 

[FreoRicci]

Lyon has coached very well this year. Didn’t like his smile during the second qtr.. yes it was a fierce contest, yes we were brilliant in defence. But we didn’t look like scoring! Nothing to smile about.

I would of made the move and played hogan as our deepest Fwd with Matera the only other player anywhere near the goals at his feet. Tabs roaming the ground..and McCarthy leading outside 50 to get his opponent out of the congestion.

Instead it was a giant cluster**** of a fwd line. With zero space to lead into.


Awesome game though. We should come away after that pretty pleased.

Should be an easy week for the boys physically leading up to Sunday. One would think maybe one big session at Optus on the Friday, but besides that they should get the well deserved rest.

Hamling might be managed, McCarthy Switta Colyer could come under the microscope and one would think Darcy and Blakely are gearing up!?

Tried that. Adelaide had one or two hanging around the forward 50, even with Tabs roaming around the wing. The difference is Crows didn’t get stuck into the plan. They just zoned the defence and were very well disciplined

 

[FreoRicci]

I know. Always has under Ross. Always.

Again, that's why we lost the 2013 grand final.

Im hoping that it changes eventually but its always been the knock on Ross.

Id prefer to have lost by a bit more and maybe given our forwards more of a chance in the second half.

That’s a BS post. We should’ve been closer at Half time, only for Freo to be 1.6. Fyfe missed twice for out on the full.
If we have like 5.2 or 4.3. Would’ve gone a long way. No, would’ve rather us stuck to the same plan, as it’s the only one in Hawks’ three flags that even tested them.
2015- thrashed west coast who tried to take them on.
2014- thrashed Sydney who had no plan for their kicking effiency.
Goddamn.. Ross planned it to a tee. Just needed to take those chances. It happens.

 

[FreoMonocle]

Did Brian Lake win the Norm Smith for his roguish good looks?

If Fyfe nailed his shots at goal in Q1, he probably would have had the Norm Smith imho (and the team would all have shiny premiership medals and trophy in the cabinet).

 

[raffrox]

How'd the last quarter go?

That’s a BS post. We should’ve been closer at Half time, only for Freo to be 1.6. Fyfe missed twice for out on the full.
If we have like 5.2 or 4.3. Would’ve gone a long way. No, would’ve rather us stuck to the same plan, as it’s the only one in Hawks’ three flags that even tested them.
2015- thrashed west coast who tried to take them on.
2014- thrashed Sydney who had no plan for their kicking effiency.
Goddamn.. Ross planned it to a tee. Just needed to take those chances. It happens.

Fair enough. I still think that Ross' style of play for the vast majority of his coaching career has minimal margin for error because it is predominantly based on effort and restriction and not efficiency going forward. As I said above that seemed evident in the 2015 prelim as well. It also seemed that we were running on empty in 2015 with an over reliance on effort over efficiency.

There's evidence of progress but I think we need to be careful that our forward line gets some of the love in whatever we do with our systems from now on.

 

[yakka man]

How'd the last quarter go?


Fair enough. I still think that Ross' style of play for the vast majority of his coaching career has minimal margin for error because it is predominantly based on effort and restriction and not efficiency going forward. As I said above that seemed evident in the 2015 prelim as well. It also seemed that we were running on empty in 2015 with an over reliance on effort over efficiency.

There's evidence of progress but I think we need to be careful that our forward line gets some of the love in whatever we do with our systems from now on.

Yep, and there has been improvement, which is good. However, in the last two games our three KPF's have scored three goals total. So we want to see them rebound this week.

 

[FreoRicci]

How'd the last quarter go?


Fair enough. I still think that Ross' style of play for the vast majority of his coaching career has minimal margin for error because it is predominantly based on effort and restriction and not efficiency going forward. As I said above that seemed evident in the 2015 prelim as well. It also seemed that we were running on empty in 2015 with an over reliance on effort over efficiency.

There's evidence of progress but I think we need to be careful that our forward line gets some of the love in whatever we do with our systems from now on.

The problem is what forward line he has had. As compared to Hawthorn, it was workmanlike at best.
Buddy, Roughead, Gunston with Rioli and Puopolo. And we managed to curb that.
Ross has always meant to be effort like systems, as that’s the only way could get wins for both St kilda and Fremantle.
Would Mark Harvey have taken a forward line of Pavlich, Mayne, Clarke with Ballas and Walters? No.

Now is his chance to implement an attacking system. He has no excuses to do so. Hogan/Tabs/McCarthy/Cox/ Walters/Switter/Matera
There’s so much talent there. Lots to play with.

Plus there’s more efficiency over effort players within the team. Cerra and Bradshaw provide a better disposal and class. Tucker can add to that. Blakely too. On the outside Langdon and Hill have better disposal efficiency. It’s about using it to its maximial effectiveness. That game Vs GWS.. should be the foundation which to be based upon

 

[PurpleEyes]

Logically Clarkson is a better coach than Ross. Logically Ross' systems have struggled against Clarkson's. Take the 2015 prelim (but Fyfe was injured, but, but, but). We aimed to restrict their shots on goal but the efficient team still won.

Here have a read: https://www.afl.com.au/match-centre/2015/26/fre-v-haw

Again, you like using stats that apparently prove your point. There is usually a suspect causal relationship between what you state and what you think it means. If you can't admit that Clarkson's game plan has been shown to be superior to Ross' then any kind of rational conversation is very, very unlikely. I don't care what stats/excuses you show. The fact that I'm stating the dead set obvious that 90% of footy fans would agree with and that you still can't bring yourself to see it is laughable.

I have been critical of the club overall and I stand by that. As an entity over the years it has largely under performed. Now again, feel free to show me stats why I am wrong.

I'm saying these things because I would like success and for our club to stand tall. No excuses.

You've always got an excuse for the team.

I've said plenty of positive things about the team and Ross as of late and we are moving in the right direction. In my opinion though there were elements of last weekends game which were a step backwards. When the system was challenged we went more defensive until it was too late. Stress tests are crucial to determining if something works. We learn something and I would have liked something different to have been tried in the second half. That's not the end of the world and I'm bloody well able to have my opinion.

The fact that I still get attacked for saying "outlandish" things like there is a history of our Ross coached teams having issues going forward and that skill based teams that can move the ball efficiently (i.e. Clarkson's teams) usually cut us up shows who has the 'agendas' and the delusions around here.

You still don't seem to understand the concept that Clarkson possibly had a better team than Lyon had.
Team lists are dynamic, so too are the opposition and any attempts to dumb down a conversation by comparing Lyon to Clarkson based on the success of one of histories greatest teams is a very poor argument.

If Clarkson is such a superior coach ... why hasn't he won the premiership for the last 3 years? Why isn't Hawthorn's current goal per i50 conversion rate up there near 30%.
I produced historical facts that showed why your post was a petty comparison. Heck, did you not read the fact that Freo's goal to inside 50 conversion in 2013 was 28.2%. Do you not understand that if Freo had that 2013 season average conversion on Sunday we would have kicked 14 goals ... not 5 ... so your argument which puts the blame solely on Lyon is flawed.

And to justify any argument by stating you don't care what stats I show and you then justify your belief by stating "90% of footy fans ..." is just more subjective nonsense. 90% of Australians would probably believe Putin is an unpopular and bad leader of Russia, meanwhile in Russia he has constantly had a 70-90% approval rating ... the difference is what the media tells you in each country is different. If you choose to just believe the subjective opinion of media, both commercial and social without any real effort to research history yourself then that may explain why I consider your posts to often contain flawed subjective points.

 

[LeftFootBanana]

The Hawks built a list that let them put probably the best kicking team of all time on the park. Lewis, Guerra, Mitchell, Hodge, Suckling, Gunston, Rioli and Bruest are some that spring to mind. They were particularly adept at trading in players to improve their list. No disputing Clarkson can coach but he had very good cattle work with.

Their ability to move the ball quickly with precision made them bloody hard to defend against. Having said that I still think we were coming home the better against them in the GF and 2015 prelim remains the one that got away. That prelim was another game where a 50m penalty cost us dearly and where we lost the free kick count at home.

 

[PurpleEyes]

The Hawks built a list that let them put probably the best kicking team of all time on the park. Lewis, Guerra, Mitchell, Hodge, Suckling, Gunston, Rioli and Bruest are some that spring to mind. They were particularly adept at trading in players to improve their list. No disputing Clarkson can coach but he had very good cattle work with.

Their ability to move the ball quickly with precision made them bloody hard to defend against. Having said that I still think we were coming home the better against them in the GF and 2015 prelim remains the one that got away. That prelim was another game where a 50m penalty cost us dearly and where we lost the free kick count at home.

I am on record in BigFooty posts prior to that 2015 prelim stating that Freo were well and truly reamed by the choice of umpires for that game. I provided extensive data showing why. I was ridiculed ... until after the game when history showed my prediction was accurate.
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...thorn-hawks-are-welcome.1112150/post-41076643

 

[raffrox]

You still don't seem to understand the concept that Clarkson possibly had a better team than Lyon had.
Team lists are dynamic, so too are the opposition and any attempts to dumb down a conversation by comparing Lyon to Clarkson based on the success of one of histories greatest teams is a very poor argument.

If Clarkson is such a superior coach ... why hasn't he won the premiership for the last 3 years? Why isn't Hawthorn's current goal per i50 conversion rate up there near 30%.
I produced historical facts that showed why your post was a petty comparison. Heck, did you not read the fact that Freo's goal to inside 50 conversion in 2013 was 28.2%. Do you not understand that if Freo had that 2013 season average conversion on Sunday we would have kicked 14 goals ... not 5 ... so your argument which puts the blame solely on Lyon is flawed.

And to justify any argument by stating you don't care what stats I show and you then justify your belief by stating "90% of footy fans ..." is just more subjective nonsense. 90% of Australians would probably believe Putin is an unpopular and bad leader of Russia, meanwhile in Russia he has constantly had a 70-90% approval rating ... the difference is what the media tells you in each country is different. If you choose to just believe the subjective opinion of media, both commercial and social without any real effort to research history yourself then that may explain why I consider your posts to often contain flawed subjective points.

So you are literally debating that Clarkson isn't a better coach that Ross? I'm picking a 'no brainer' topic like this to demonstrate how biased you are.

How can your analysis be trusted if you won't even see this?

 

[raffrox]

The problem is what forward line he has had. As compared to Hawthorn, it was workmanlike at best.
Buddy, Roughead, Gunston with Rioli and Puopolo. And we managed to curb that.
Ross has always meant to be effort like systems, as that’s the only way could get wins for both St kilda and Fremantle.
Would Mark Harvey have taken a forward line of Pavlich, Mayne, Clarke with Ballas and Walters? No.

Now is his chance to implement an attacking system. He has no excuses to do so. Hogan/Tabs/McCarthy/Cox/ Walters/Switter/Matera
There’s so much talent there. Lots to play with.

Plus there’s more efficiency over effort players within the team. Cerra and Bradshaw provide a better disposal and class. Tucker can add to that. Blakely too. On the outside Langdon and Hill have better disposal efficiency. It’s about using it to its maximial effectiveness. That game Vs GWS.. should be the foundation which to be based upon

Double high five from me.

I agree with all of that.

 

[PurpleEyes]

So you are literally debating that Clarkson isn't a better coach that Ross. I'm picking a 'no brainer' topic like this to demonstrate how biased you are.

How can your analysis be trusted if you won't even see this?

Has Hawthorn owned Fremantle for years ... categorically yes (just 1 Freo win in last 10 contests ... Hawthorn ranked the better team in all games).
Has Clarkson owned Lyon for years ... I don't believe so ... Clarkson has led Hawthorn to wins over Lyon when Clarkson has had the better team as history shows. There has only been 2 games (of 17) in which Hawthorn did not end up ranked higher than Lyon coached teams and the results of those 2 games was a win and a draw for Lyon.
When Lyon had St Kilda, the Clarkson vs Lyon records is; 7 games, 3 wins, 1 draw, 3 losses (Hawthorn were ranked the higher team in 5 of those 7 games).

And in any case, my initial response to you was because;
I wrote: "Our obvious deficiencies still lie with our movements in to the forward 50.";
You responded: "I know. Always has under Ross. Always. Again, that's why we lost the 2013 grand final."

Again, trying to place Freo's 2013 Grand Final loss on Ross was a petty and unjustified comment and I have provided statistical evidence why I think that.

 

[raffrox]

Has Hawthorn owned Fremantle for years ... categorically yes (just 1 Freo win in last 10 contests ... Hawthorn ranked the better team in all games).
Has Clarkson owned Lyon for years ... I don't believe so ... Clarkson has led Hawthorn to wins over Lyon when Clarkson has had the better team as history shows. There has only been 2 games (of 17) in which Hawthorn did not end up ranked higher than Lyon coached teams and the results of those 2 games was a win and a draw for Lyon.
When Lyon had St Kilda, the Clarkson vs Lyon records is; 7 games, 3 wins, 1 draw, 3 losses (Hawthorn were ranked the higher team in 5 of those 7 games).

And in any case, my initial response to you was because;
I wrote: "Our obvious deficiencies still lie with our movements in to the forward 50.";
You responded: "I know. Always has under Ross. Always. Again, that's why we lost the 2013 grand final."

Again, trying to place Freo's 2013 Grand Final loss on Ross was a petty and unjustified comment and I have provided statistical evidence why I think that.

Team ranking suggests that they were the better team. Clarkson is a contributing factor to that. Case in point. You think you're proving a point with stats but I don't think you are. You're proving my point, not your own.

Could it be that the systems and game plan of the Hawks were better than Freo's due to Clarkson's coaching and that's why they are higher ranked? Clarkson's system clearly stacks up better than Ross'. Admit it.

It doesn't mean that Ross can't coach or that he's the devil but he would be a fool to not learn from that. As I've said a few times there's been progress but this must continue.

Congratulations your opinion on the 2013 GF is different to mine. Doesn't make it petty or unjustified. Lake did as he pleased in that last quarter. You don't think that should have been countered?