List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

[Nothing]

Team ranking suggests that they were the better team. Clarkson is a contributing factor to that. Case in point. You think you're proving a point with stats but I don't think you are. You're proving my point, not your own.

Could it be that the systems and game plan of the Hawks were better than Freo's due to Clarkson's coaching and that's why they are higher ranked? Clarkson's system clearly stacks up better than Ross'. Admit it.

It doesn't mean that Ross can't coach or that he's the devil but he would be a fool to not learn from that. As I've said a few times there's been progress but this must continue.

Congratulations your opinion on the 2013 GF is different to mine. Doesn't make it petty or unjustified. Lake did as he pleased in that last quarter. You don't think that should have been countered?

On a team vs team basis if you go through the 2013 GF looking at the 22 players from Hawks vs the 22 players from Freo, how often do you think Freo had the better player? In my opinion it was a handful of times at most. We were a team that competed well at the top end for talent but we fell away much quicker. Hawks were a very strong side.

 

[PurpleEyes]

Team ranking suggests that they were the better team. Clarkson is a contributing factor to that. Case in point. You think you're proving a point with stats but I don't think you are. You're proving my point, not your own.

Could it be that the systems and game plan of the Hawks were better than Freo's due to Clarkson's coaching and that's why they are higher ranked? Clarkson's system clearly stacks up better than Ross'. Admit it.

It doesn't mean that Ross can't coach or that he's the devil but he would be a fool to not learn from that. As I've said a few times there's been progress but this must continue.

Congratulations your opinion on the 2013 GF is different to mine. Doesn't make it petty or unjustified. Lake did as he pleased in that last quarter. You don't think that should have been countered?

Again, in 2013, Freo's goal conversion rate was 28.2%. It was just 10% on Sunday. Trying to blame Ross for that and using 2013 as your evidence was a flawed argument. Remember you stated "I know. Always has under Ross. Always. Again, that's why we lost the 2013 grand final."

Clarkson is an undisputed brilliant coach. I have never said different. But, he's not Freo's coach and he's not available to be Freo's coach, so get over it. (When Freo tried to copy Clarkson's game plan we had the start of 2016 to show for it.)

 

[theGav56]

Logically Clarkson is a better coach than Ross. Logically Ross' systems have struggled against Clarkson's. Take the 2015 prelim (but Fyfe was injured, but, but, but). We aimed to restrict their shots on goal but the efficient team still won.

Here have a read: https://www.afl.com.au/match-centre/2015/26/fre-v-haw

Again, you like using stats that apparently prove your point. There is usually a suspect causal relationship between what you state and what you think it means. If you can't admit that Clarkson's game plan has been shown to be superior to Ross' then any kind of rational conversation is very, very unlikely. I don't care what stats/excuses you show. The fact that I'm stating the dead set obvious that 90% of footy fans would agree with and that you still can't bring yourself to see it is laughable.

I have been critical of the club overall and I stand by that. As an entity over the years it has largely under performed. Now again, feel free to show me stats why I am wrong.

I'm saying these things because I would like success and for our club to stand tall. No excuses.

You've always got an excuse for the team.

I've said plenty of positive things about the team and Ross as of late and we are moving in the right direction. In my opinion though there were elements of last weekends game which were a step backwards. When the system was challenged we went more defensive until it was too late. Stress tests are crucial to determining if something works. We learn something and I would have liked something different to have been tried in the second half. That's not the end of the world and I'm bloody well able to have my opinion.

The fact that I still get attacked for saying "outlandish" things like there is a history of our Ross coached teams having issues going forward and that skill based teams that can move the ball efficiently (i.e. Clarkson's teams) usually cut us up shows who has the 'agendas' and the delusions around here.

I think you are being a bit sensitive if you think you are being attacked or targeted (and by the way I did see your earlier post directed at me before you quickly deleted it). All part of life on bigfooty in my opinion, and purpleyes looks like he is refuting your argument rather than attacking you.

It is a discussion board, but stats are pretty reasonable as a way of supporting an argument, whereas "we have under-performed" really isn't unless you provide context for that statement, and your other thoughts that "90% of fans" would agree are just more blah blah with no substance behind them.

I think Clarkson is a better coach than Lyon, but bringing in a measure for the quality of the team at their disposal is still relevant. Reality is, Clarkson got it done, several times.

 

[FreoMonocle]

So you are literally debating that Clarkson isn't a better coach that Ross?

How can your analysis be trusted if you won't even see this?

Clarkson has the trophies, Ross doesn't, there is no denying that. But it isn't a game of chess where the board and pieces are identical. You can clearly prove your chess credentials because there is no handicap for either side except for who has the opening move, it's equal and mind vs mind.

Clarkson has gotten the most out of the competitions best list that did alright for injuries in the period, coupled with extra advantages (freo vs hawks - weren't equal for home games for a starter). That is to his credit that he did, owning the fastest car does not mean you will automatically win the Grand Prix. Also it does not necessarily mean that Ross could have done just as well with the Hawks list - could be a zeropeat instead of a threepeat, but it is distinctly clear that Ross got more out of his teams than the talent at hand would suggest.

Between the 2, Clarkson had the faster car, which does not necessarily mean he is the better driver.

 

[Mudd]

Between the 2, Clarkson had the faster car, which does not necessarily mean he is the better driver.

He may have had the faster car due to being a better engineer.

Not many of the multiple premiership players at Hawthorn walked into the club when they were 18 as champions.

 

[Nickos66]

As bad as Ross's record is against Clarkson, it's worse against Adam Simpson.

 

[wild side]

Not that good against Pyke either

 

[Square Peg]

but it is distinctly clear that Ross got more out of his teams than the talent at hand would suggest.

This is the gist of it I think. That's where Lyon is a very good coach, to use a common analogy if you owned an EPL team and didn't much care if you made the Champions League as long as you could guarantee never to be relegated, he'd be your manager for life. The question that is unanswered is whether if you did a Freaky Friday move and put Clarko in charge of our 2013 side and Ross in charge of the Hawks - would the GF result be the same?

Clarkson's greatest flag was 2008, no one should have come close to Geelong that year. So I don't think it's true that he always won because he had the fastest car either even if mostly he did

 

[PurpleEyes]

As bad as Ross's record is against Clarkson, it's worse against Adam Simpson.

I've responded to this in the past.
2014 was the only year Freo finished the season ranked higher than West Coast (since both Simpson and Lyon have been coaching 2014 onwards). In that year Freo won both derbies.
2015 Freo won the first derby, West Coast the 2nd and they have been the dominant side since finishing every year ranked higher than Freo.

So once again, we have a comparison of coaches where the results quite simply match up to the team's performances.

 

[PurpleEyes]

Not that good against Pyke either

Yet better than premiership coaches;
Luke Beveridge - 83.3% wins (6 games, 5 wins, 0 draws, 1 loss)
John Worsfold - 68.75% wins (16-11-0-5)
Damien Hardwick - 60.71% wins (14-8-1-5)

 

[jedi mind tricks]

Not that good against Pyke either

And yet no-one wants Don Pyke. I winder why?

 

[kingswood71]

TBH, I reckon I could have snagged a premiership coaching with the team Clarkson had

 

[Joao]

TBH, I reckon I could have snagged a premiership coaching with the team Clarkson had

I reckon this is somewhat true as long as Hodge and Mitchell are on the field.

 

[LeftFootBanana]

I made the point earlier but it's worth making again - Hawthorn traded have in the likes of Burgoyne, Gibson, Lake, Guerra, Hale, Spider Everett, Dew, McEvoy, Spanger, O'Meara and Tom Mitchell. Their list management has been brilliant and it's allowed them to add ready made best 22 players. Little or no development required.

They've also been prepared to let players go while they still have some currency. There's no doubt Clarkson is a wonderful coach but he has had the benefit of a very good list. It's also worth noting that he (along with the coaches of the other Victorian teams) hasn't had to deal with the issue of travelling every second week.

 

[Dump Truck]

The problem is what forward line he has had. As compared to Hawthorn, it was workmanlike at best.
Buddy, Roughead, Gunston with Rioli and Puopolo. And we managed to curb that.
Ross has always meant to be effort like systems, as that’s the only way could get wins for both St kilda and Fremantle.
Would Mark Harvey have taken a forward line of Pavlich, Mayne, Clarke with Ballas and Walters? No.

Now is his chance to implement an attacking system. He has no excuses to do so. Hogan/Tabs/McCarthy/Cox/ Walters/Switter/Matera
There’s so much talent there. Lots to play with.

Plus there’s more efficiency over effort players within the team. Cerra and Bradshaw provide a better disposal and class. Tucker can add to that. Blakely too. On the outside Langdon and Hill have better disposal efficiency. It’s about using it to its maximial effectiveness. That game Vs GWS.. should be the foundation which to be based upon

I can't tell if this is pro or anti Ross but I agree with this (apologies for not knowing your stance, I skim 75% of this thread because it's a sh**fight). Regardless, I 100% agree with what you said. I believe Ross is the man to take us forward with this group and now has the tools to do so.

Pav had no one. We now have a chance to create an attacking forward line with the same cohesive, defensive unit Ross always relied on.

 

[Dump Truck]

But it isn't a game of chess where the board and pieces are identical.

This. People seem to forget this. Brilliant analogy.

 

[raffrox]

I can't tell if this is pro or anti Ross but I agree with this (apologies for not knowing your stance, I skim 75% of this thread because it's a sh**fight). Regardless, I 100% agree with what you said. I believe Ross is the man to take us forward with this group and now has the tools to do so.

Pav had no one. We now have a chance to create an attacking forward line with the same cohesive, defensive unit Ross always relied on.

I think it's neither pro or anti. That's why I thought it was a great post.

 

[Freomaniac]

And yet no-one wants Don Pyke. I winder why?

Don Pyke isn't a bad coach. the crows best 22 fully fit and no injuries isn't a bad side to work with. He gets copped crap for the crows 2017 GF performance and not making finals in 2018

 

[theGav56]

Don Pyke isn't a bad coach. the crows best 22 fully fit and no injuries isn't a bad side to work with. He gets copped crap for the crows 2017 GF performance and not making finals in 2018

He also cops it for the stuffed up pre-season that he put in place, and Crows supporters rip into him about his game plan, not playing the young players etc. Their board is similar to quite a few other bf boards where they are unhappy with the coach, and very similar to ours. Seem to think changing coaches is the solution to everything.

 

[FreoRicci]

Coach killing game. Knew Richmond would do this. Still can’t counter it .

 

[Spirit Level]

Hi Ross lovers! Please explain?

 

[raffrox]

I called it last week that there were danger signs with how we were going forward and that Ross was playing a restrictive game of footy and theres certainly nothing this week to change my mind. Flooding back hard, and outnumbered forwards when we do attack.

Can anyone explain to me what our forward structure and game plan is?

I want stats, venn diagrams, the whole 9 yards.

 

[go_the_dockers]

Coach killing game. Knew Richmond would do this. Still can’t counter it .

We can't counter Richmond, hawks , eagles, ....

The list grows

 

[Farrand]

I think he's got to go at this point. It's not like our wins (bar against the Roos) have been particularly strong. We seem to have no plan A or B and our players seem to lack any confidence.

 

[Fat Nyfe]

Poor selections, poor coaching, poor skills, easily pulled apart by an injury ravaged side with 2 down on the bench. Same old shambolic forwardline structure, despite having quality down there. Ross is supposedly smart but he’s obviously not smart enough to change his game plan to go with hard running sides on the scoreboard