Discussion Ross Lyon

[Kildonan]

As I understand it, Ross Lyon made some unwise investments that went bad when the global financial crisis struck. He lost a lot of money and was forced to move his family into his father's home. This set up a conflict. His coin was rising in other clubs. Lyon's management were probably making other clubs aware of this in order to attract a big offer (and hence a big commission).

The Saints had a bad year financially. There were a number of factors that led to this, but they had to face reality and reduce spending. They could not offer Lyon the pay rise he was hoping for - they already had a contract in place.

Freo offered Lyon what he needed - enough money to give his family all the things he should be able to give them. The only problem - he had to betray his club, his players and his manager to do so.

Where do his greatest loyalties lie? His family or his club?

History has answered this already.

 

[Crippa2Sipa]

Each of the points Kildonian has raised is - without exception - a red herring.

It's worth recalling the comment of a man who has managed to run an AFL club competently so that it is successful both on-field and off, rather than regurgitating the party line promulgated by a manifestly incompetent Board and CEO for consumption by the ignorant masses:

"Asked how he would have felt if Hawthorn had lost coach Alastair Clarkson to similar circumstances, Kennett replied: "That would have been our fault if we were the victim of a coup and we wanted to keep someone.
"We're not playing with fairies at the bottom of the garden; we're living in a very real commercial world."

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/o ... 6142125557

 

[Kildonan]

C2S - I don't have an agenda. I'm not trying to persuede posters one way or the other. I just wanted the facts to be known.

 

[Squizz]

This ignorant mass (I guess I could lose a bit of weight) isn't relying on any "party line" to form a view. Seen enough through my own eyes thanks.

The real commercial world (as opposed to the pissfarting that is local, state, federal and Kennett politics) sometimes senior leaders run a consistent line - but one that is no longer working. It can very much be time for a fresh approach. And comparing the workings of a sporting club to some of our local companies which turn over in excess of $1bn and have substantial offshore operations is like living in a fairy's garden.

Overlay that environment with the $ being the primary motive and you have a recipe for change or at least a pause to query the direction. And our relationship with the media was poisonous (which was not helped by a decision by the coach to pursue a player that had issues and wasn't respected by the captain at the same time as telling an existing player that he had to change his ways).

 

[BrianSpeaking]

Who cares guys, he was awesome for us, he went broke and Freo were the white knight.
He is the one who kisses his kids good night knowing that their immediate and long term financial future is secure. Anyone who doesnt agree is just plain kidding themselves(pun intended) or doesnt have children yet.
For those of you who are on 70K per year working at Melbourne Water or Telstra, I'll give you $120K if you come over to my company, and Ill guarantee it for 5 years. Ill also give you 3 million shares in this new mine in the pilbera, they are only worth 20 cents each at the moment but we expect them to be valued at $4.00 by the end of the year….its a no brainer!
Enter Mark Harvey, who was on the same deal, is now worth mega bucks through his share portfolio now and also part owns a couple of mines, he is pissed because he has had the rug pulled from him, the best financial gig in Australian sports for a coach.

 

[Squizz]

Why compare him to someone on $70k when he gets many times that?

Why not compare him with Dal Santo who has stayed for less money than he can get elsewhere?

 

[SA1NTER]

I don't know if this will be a popular opinion, but I hate Ross Lyon and I'm glad we are rid of him. He evades questions by giving vague answers, because what he did to Mark Harvey was disgraceful, his deceit towards St. Kilda wasn't as bad, but it was still morally questionable. If he doesn't want to answer an incriminating question he'll say it's irrelevant or a "moot point". Who the **** says "moot point" anyway?

I hope him and the two Steve's running Fremantle have nothing but the worst of luck and fortune for the remainder of their respective careers. I sure as hell would not have done what Ross Lyon did to Harvey and St. Kilda, but I have values and loyalty is at the top of that list.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Apart from his poor youth ( and team skills IMO )development My only problem is that once he hit on a winning formula he seemed to be completely shitscared or too stubborn to change anything.
Apparently winning included winning by only a couple of points on several games was OK and it didnt indicate that there was anything wrong at all in the team which had been blitzing it the year before. We didn't need to change the players or the gameplan apparently, until the shit hit the fan. Then he said he would tweak the gameplan but it was pretty uninspring to me, and it seemed the players werent that inspired either.

 

[Crippa2Sipa]

Fremantle got what they deserve. As did we.

 

[sammm]

Apart from his poor youth ( and team skills IMO )development My only problem is that once he hit on a winning formula he seemed to be completely shitscared or too stubborn to change anything.
Apparently winning included winning by only a couple of points on several games was OK and it didnt indicate that there was anything wrong at all in the team which had been blitzing it the year before. We didn't need to change the players or the gameplan apparently, until the shit hit the fan. Then he said he would tweak the gameplan but it was pretty uninspring to me, and it seemed the players werent that inspired either.

i agree with you on the most part.

in 2009 where we won 20 games in a row, we won easily many times, and even when the win was not as easy i had no thought that we would lose the game. the saints were skillful, confident etc.

in 2010 not so. we scraped through many games, less skill full, less confident.

at that point maybe the saints should have started cresting players, changing the players, etc. but it didn't happen much

 

[Kosi]

Each of the points Kildonian has raised is - without exception - a red herring.

It's worth recalling the comment of a man who has managed to run an AFL club competently so that it is successful both on-field and off, rather than regurgitating the party line promulgated by a manifestly incompetent Board and CEO for consumption by the ignorant masses:

"Asked how he would have felt if Hawthorn had lost coach Alastair Clarkson to similar circumstances, Kennett replied: "That would have been our fault if we were the victim of a coup and we wanted to keep someone.
"We're not playing with fairies at the bottom of the garden; we're living in a very real commercial world."

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/o ... 6142125557

When a person is in financial difficulty and accepts a deal which bails him out it is not a red herring no matter how he tries to justify it.

Mick has made a living creating businesses from scratch and flogging them. When MN sold Eye Corp it was at a value of $400 million.

Mick knows exactly what he is doing.

Mick wanted RL but on a performance basis not on RL's bail out terms. In business there is a price for everything. Both he, the Saints and RL's agents thought the deal negotiated on RL was fair. Fremantle paid over market so we lost him. Thats business not incompetence.

Clarkson is not a good example. Kennett refused to negotiate with him until the later end of his contract unlike MN who at least entertained RL's insecurities early. Clarkson was not in financial trouble so he was not desperate for the dollar. His integrity remains intact.

 

[FlyingSledghamer]

Did Ross over achieve or under achieve? with a list that had Dal, Joey, Goddard, Fisher, Roo, Hayes, Jones, Milne and Schnider? All who were in the peak of thier careers during his time. IMO he under achieved. We should have won it in 09. There was no excuse. I put it on him.
Anyway as they say, time will tell. We'll see what he can do with Freo's list and then he can be judged.

 

[Crippa2Sipa]

Someone raised a point about our CEO's business ventures before he became our CEO. That is yet another red herring. His record as our CEO is what counts.

 

[Crippa2Sipa]

Did Ross over achieve or under achieve?

Ross Lyon underachieved - of course. That's why rival clubs - Melbourne included - were falling over themselves in a bidding war to secure him.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

When a person is in financial difficulty and accepts a deal which bails him out it is not a red herring no matter how he tries to justify it.

Mick has made a living creating businesses from scratch and flogging them. When MN sold Eye Corp it was at a value of $400 million.

Mick knows exactly what he is doing.

Mick wanted RL but on a performance basis not on RL's bail out terms. In business there is a price for everything. Both he, the Saints and RL's agents thought the deal negotiated on RL was fair. Fremantle paid over market so we lost him. Thats business not incompetence.

Clarkson is not a good example. Kennett refused to negotiate with him until the later end of his contract unlike MN who at least entertained RL's insecurities early. Clarkson was not in financial trouble so he was not desperate for the dollar. His integrity remains intact.

Did we want to keep Lyon. Yes
Did we want to keep Lyon at any cost. No

This year the Saints have a new Coach who seems to be adressing some of the shortcomings of Lyon ( though his own shortcomings are as yet unknown ). He wont be getting paid anywhere near what Lyon is getting, and that may be what has allowed the club to increase the number of assistant coaches.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Did Ross over achieve or under achieve? with a list that had Dal, Joey, Goddard, Fisher, Roo, Hayes, Jones, Milne and Schnider? All who were in the peak of thier careers during his time. IMO he under achieved. We should have won it in 09. There was no excuse. I put it on him.
Anyway as they say, time will tell. We'll see what he can do with Freo's list and then he can be judged.

A lot of "experts" were saying that our "Window" was closed even while Thomas was still coaching.
While Lyon didn't achieve the ultimate, my opinion of under achieving would be more along the lines of what Wallace did at Richmond.

 

[Squizz]

We should have won it in 09. There was no excuse. I put it on him.

Whilst many things irritate me about the way Lyon went about certain things, I wouldn't even think of putting '09 on him.

Whilst there was an over-reliance on Kosi and a rather bizarre post-game comment with Ball, we were set up perfectly.

Other than "the Raph thingo", Riewoldt's ridiculous/reckless attempt to mark on the wing which left him restricted for the rest of the game (having taken an injury into the game), some poor kicking for goal from Milne/Schneider/McQualter, and a goal umpire blooper I thought we completely outplayed Geelong (probably in a similar way to them having dominated in '08 except on the scoreboard).

It was the following year (following a poor trade week) that the obsession with the same players, playing injured players, having a small forward who doesn't score any goals, and a complete absence from VFL games became more obvious issues (but were disregarded whilst we were winning games).

 

[Crippa2Sipa]

Did we want to keep Lyon. Yes
Did we want to keep Lyon at any cost. No.

Lyon asked for much less than we ultimately offered him - and much less than we are now paying for a novice coach plus the numerous extra assistants he needs.

Our club's failure - which Kennett was alluding to - was in allowing things to drag on to the point where we were killed in a bidding war of our own making because our CEO had failed to read the market correctly.

Back in March, the CEO opened contract talks with Ross, offering a PAY-CUT plus incentives to a coach with:

- back-to-back Grand Finals results;
- a drawn Grand Final result achieved in a year in which our captain was out for most of the season and we realistically had no chance; and
- the financial accolade of helping to secure for our club the $660,000 windfall we won as our share of the AFL's takings for the Grand Final Rematch.

(By the way, why was our CEO raking in $700-800k, instead of being on a performance based contract, if he thought it a fair thing to offer a pay-cut + incentives to a coach who - by market consensus - had just grossly out-performed with the paltry resources at his disposal? Oh yeah, because our CEO is also a member of the Board, and would have opposed such a contract for himself - despite manifestly under-performing in the field of his own responsibility.)

 

[PoppedCorn]

he asked for much less than what we ended up offering him?
yet went to perth for coin?

so he asks for 5 bucks yet we offered him 10 bucks...therefore he really only needs the 5 bucks otherwise he wouldve asked for more
then freo come in and offer 20 bucks...yet he still only needs 5 bucks
so why leave??

karching $$$$
eyes bigger than belly

 

[sammm]

he asked for much less than what we ended up offering him?
yet went to perth for coin?

so he asks for 5 bucks yet we offered him 10 bucks...therefore he really only needs the 5 bucks otherwise he wouldve asked for more
then freo come in and offer 20 bucks...yet he still only needs 5 bucks
so why leave??

karching $$$$
eyes bigger than belly

i knew there was something wrong with with wat C2S said!

 

[Crippa2Sipa]

To those defending our stance in the negotiations with Ross on the basis that Ross should have taken what he "needs" and not done the best for himself and his family, surely you don't need me to remind you that we're not living in some fairytale Marxist state organized according to the principle "From each according to his need to each according to his ability".

Since when in a capitalist market economy does an organization wanting to secure a person's services offer that person what it think he "needs", or even double what it think he "needs", and not what the market thinks he is worth or at least the maximum they can afford of that amount?

 

[sammm]

To those defending our stance in the negotiations with Ross on the basis that Ross should have taken what he "needs" and not done the best for himself and his family, surely you don't need me to remind you that we're not living in some fairytale Marxist state organized according to the principle "From each according to his need to each according to his ability".

Since when in a capitalist market economy does an organization wanting to secure a person's services offer that person what it think he "needs", or even double what it think he "needs", and not what the market thinks he is worth?

i am not defending any decsion, my belief, is that no club should extend a contract that had 6 months to go and only won 1 out of 8 games.

 

[goodie23]

i am not defending any decision, my belief, is that no club should extend a contract that had 6 months to go and only won 1 out of 8 games.

18 months to go. Lyon was contracted for this year but used the exit clause.

 

[mysainters]

he asked for much less than what we ended up offering him?
yet went to perth for coin?

so he asks for 5 bucks yet we offered him 10 bucks...therefore he really only needs the 5 bucks otherwise he wouldve asked for more
then freo come in and offer 20 bucks...yet he still only needs 5 bucks
so why leave??

karching $$$$
eyes bigger than belly

Nah, his belly is bigger than his eyes.

 

[Crippa2Sipa]

Nah, his belly is bigger than his eyes.

I daresay my own belly is big than my eyes, as is PopCorn's, yours and all mankind's.