List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

[Fyfster]

When Ross renewed his contract 3 years ago . In his speech to the members he said to strap ourselves in for an exciting ride .Well i'm strapped in and so far it's about as exciting as the merry go round at the zoo.

 

[nurries]

When Ross renewed his contract 3 years ago . In his speech to the members he said to strap ourselves in for an exciting ride .Well i'm strapped in and so far it's about as exciting as the merry go round at the zoo.

I would take the merry go round any day

 

[Rion]

We were getting late draft picks instead of top 5 draft picks because we were winning, as coach that is the bit he is responsible for. That is his part in the list degradation and it is a good problem to have, it only accounts for a small portion of the list woes.

If you don't think he gets an out, he therefore is responsible. So, have at it, aside from 3-4 years of bad draft picks due to winning, where is he responsible for the list degradation?

Here is a good starting point http://www.fremantlefc.com.au/club/history/draft-history As we still have Mundy, Sandi and Jonho on the list, take it from after Mundy, so 2004.

Draft Players missing that could be on the list still. This is the drafting preceding Ross, we should still have at least 8-10 more players from these drafts still on the list (players 24 years old and over).

2004 Josh Carr (played for 3 years) or the traded picks (11, 27, 45). Copping, Stribling, Haines, Krieger, Juniper, Crowley, Schofield
2005 Marcus Drum, Robert Warnock, Ibbotson, Warnock, Duffield, Stribling
2006 Chris Tarrant (or the traded pick 8 and Medhurst), Clayton Collard, O'Brien, Mourish, Smith, Foster, Rumble, Copping
2007 Rhys Palmer, Clayton Hinkley, Mayne, Mark Johnson, Bradley, Connelly, Pratt, Dunn, Head
2008 Suban, Zarke, Bucovaz, Ruffles, Hall, Sibosado, de Boer, Shepheard, Clancee, van Berlo, Broughton
2009 Morabito, Houghton, Crichton, Roberton, Barlow, Silvagni, McPhee
2010 Pitt, Michie , Roberts, Lower, Bucovaz, Ruffles, Anthony
2011 Crozier, Forster, Schloithe, Menegola, Wilson King, Clancee, Dawson

Who out of that, should we still have on the list? Barlow, maybe Menegola, Crozier and de Boer. Barlow I will pay as being Ross (he only needed to enforce that he was a required player). In general, this is just list management failure, they picked and traded awfully and didn't give us enough talent worth being here in ten years time, or were the footy gods fault (Morabito, Pitt).

Not a lot of degradation that you can pin on Ross that was drafted since he was here - Simpson walked out in a hissy fit, could be a Ross issue in how he was handled but, drafting suck a fickle player in the first place goes back to the list manager. Robertons girlfriend knocked up aint Ross's fault, Yarran was Yarrans fault - or list managers fault for procuring him, Weller for Brayshaw - is this even an issue? Is there anyone in the deadwood that has been cut that you think Ross should have up as a B22 player?

Appreciate what you've posted here but I already agree with you. Of course he wasn't solely responsible for our degradation. As you say he wasn't even here between 2004 and 2011. I don't know why you stopped at 2012-2015 (there were whole years there where we got nothing). I think his tactics and his selections contributed to that lack of development from those years but you'll obviously disagree.

This discussion is very, very opinionated and I'm not sure there's ever a right answer for one draftee let alone years of them. Is the coaching bad because the coach can't get the best out of the players drafted or is the coaching doomed at the start because the players just aren't the right selections?

FreoMonocle 's painful-to-read post below pretty much addresses the question of our inability to quickly adapt tactically. Bear in mind too that every other club - and most were below us, with better draft picks and often more cap space - were scrambling after the same type of player. This explains why, for example, Billy "Zero Tackles" Hartung was snapped up by Norfs so quickly. And while researching your arguments I found that our coaching team responded as best they probably could by starting Weller in round 1 in 2016 (which surprised me). Some might argue that this smacked of desperation and they might be right.

Your question remains though - does Ross have good tactical nous? Listening to him I believe he is quite sound and as good as Clarkson and the Scott twins who I consider to be at the top. But the reality is is that none of us know. What we DO know is the following:
1. He has a history of generating enormous loyalty from his players, and is extremely loyal to them, which I believe has been the basis for his coaching success.
2. This loyalty can be a double-edged sword if he plays them for too long, or when they are out of form. And, you might suggest, when rules change.
3. But my understanding is that both he and the match committee are awake to this and that they have never been shy about over-ruling him (Bond got a lot of experience in this from dealing with Harvey).
4. Something I've heard from assistant coaches is that they (which I took to be the coaching fraternity) really don't know all the tactics an opposition team used during a game until they review the tapes the next day (the down the ground videos in particular). So for some time now developing and analysing tactics has been a group responsibility as it is simply too complex and wide-ranging for just one person.

Again I simply think that it is legitimately impossible for the fabric of the league to change in a single season. Do you think that if zones for example (a way more drastic change) came in next year that Richmond or Collingwood would end up bottom 4? Anyway I'll leave that point.

I think 'the players love him' is too often brought out as an excuse for a coach to stay on. There's countless examples but for one everything I here out of St.Kilda is that the players still love Richo. I don't think inspiring loyalty and having a tactically sound game-plan and ability to be flexible have anything to do with each other.

On point 3 my opinion is that Ross definitely has majority say in this faceless group considering he's coach. They aren't going to select 3 talls for example if Ross only wants 1.

On point 4 imo it ultimately has to come back to the head coach. While match to match tactics are probably over-hyped I think the head coach (and particularly with Ross considering everything I've heard about him) has near on complete control over a team's philosophy and general style of play. I think it'd be an understatement to say ours hasn't been great.

 

[poshman]

Well my definition of sustained is certainly longer than 4 years. And the fact that we are 'rebuilding' kind of suggests we failed at the 'sustained success' model, doesn't it.

But how about we settle for the Harris/Rosich definition of 'sustained success' which IIRC was along the lines of consistently finishing top 4 which gives yourself the best chance of making the GF and thus winning one. We managed this for three years in a row - 2013-2015. Then we fell off a cliff. If we don't make the 8 next year (more likely than not), then that's 4 consecutive years missing finals. Which would mean four years good, four years bad. 2020 would be the tie-breaker.

My definition of sustained is probably 8-10 years. Maybe more. Lets say the length of a 200+game career. Which, given injuries, could be anywhere from 10 years to 13. Success? I'll be conservative and define that as making the finals. Not always, but certainly more often than not. So by this definition, I propose Hawthorn, Geelong, Sydney, and the Slime can say they have enjoyed 'sustained success' since 2012 (when Ross took over.) A acknowledge this is 'only' a 7 year period, but these teams have made the finals 5+ times in that timeframe. If North make the 8, they will join the slime on 5.


Do I think with the current 'rebuild' we are positioning ouselves for sustained success? I don't know and I can't predict the future. But the history of this club, and that of the current administration, says probably not.

So 8 - 10 years in the eight. Not always but certainly more than not...

So all we need to do to achieve sustained success is make the eight by end of 2020 season and we would have achieved sustained success? I back us to do that. As that would be 6 appearances from 2010 through 2020.

I think it is unreasonable to expect Ross to come in when Pav and others are more than half way through their career and demand 200 games of success.

Either way by your own definition if we make the finals once in the next two seasons we have achieved sustained success. I am backing the club in for finals in 2020.

For those who say Nat Fyfe wont be playing in 2021... He will still be at his peak in 2021. 3 seasons... The catastrophizing is amazing.

 

[Dormammu]

On point 3 my opinion is that Ross definitely has majority say in this faceless group considering he's coach. They aren't going to select 3 talls for example if Ross only wants 1.

To illustrate the restraints imposed on all coaches (if the clubs are properly run) look at Jake Lever. Ross publicly spoke of how much he admired Lever several times leading up to and after the draft (i.e., HINT HINT Lloydy!) and I've been told he argued hard for him to be selected with our first round pick. But the drafting committee, with the rule change firmly in their mind, overruled him and took the nippy Weller. The same happened with Fagan and Brayshaw. I don't have examples on Ross and the match committee but the dust-ups between Bond and Harvs were legendary, with Harvs always losing.

My point is this - committees exist for a reason. The coach can argue his case but at the end of the day he only has one vote.

On point 4 imo it ultimately has to come back to the head coach. While match to match tactics are probably over-hyped I think the head coach (and particularly with Ross considering everything I've heard about him) has near on complete control over a team's philosophy and general style of play. I think it'd be an understatement to say ours hasn't been great.

Agree, he's paid the big bucks and given the resources to put together the over-arching strategy and shape the philosophy. And while we might agree that this season is better than the last our opinions will probably differ on whether the improvement has been sufficient.

But the autocratic image painted of Ross is wrong, at least according to Luke McPharlin. At a recent coterie function my friend attended he spoke of how Ross was the first coach to break this mould; several time Luke emphasised the term "feedback model" and how responsibility for communicating and policing player/game standards (philosophy) was discussed and agreed with the leadership group who took ownership and looped back to Ross. So while there's no doubt Ross can and does tear strips off people, it's not the old school "I told you to do xxx!!!" it's more like "You agreed to do xxx, you're capable of doing it and you've done it in the past so why the f**k aren't you doing it now?!!"

 

[Wigarus]

I can see you've missed Mellington, but even the semi-official list on that linked page to the Fremantle website misses Bollenhagen. Plus, there's a couple that we technically traded for with pre-draft pick movements to Gold Coast like Faulks and Mzungu.

Mellington had an off-field issue and the players made the decision they wanted him gone.

 

[its free real estate]

He did renew his contract and although he didn't live up to expectations as a forward he was still very handy as a defender.

I don't think so, he was initially signed a four year contract, and played for only four years.

Had to sign his best mate Solomon to help entice him, and for 2010 semi he sat with Collingwood players, laughing as we got pumped by Geelong.

 

[its free real estate]

So 8 - 10 years in the eight. Not always but certainly more than not...

So all we need to do to achieve sustained success is make the eight by end of 2020 season and we would have achieved sustained success? I back us to do that. As that would be 6 appearances from 2010 through 2020.

Four years of not making finals would be our worst run since Drum was coach, and the equal worst period under any single coach. I'm not sure how that is acceptable. Even a dud like Harvey made finals three years into a rebuild, winning a final against Hawthorn with a team that was as young as the one that played on the weekend.

 

[poshman]

Four years of not making finals would be our worst run since Drum was coach, and the equal worst period under any single coach. I'm not sure how that is acceptable. Even a dud like Harvey made finals three years into a rebuild, winning a final against Hawthorn with a team that was as young as the one that played on the weekend.

Piss off troll.

2017 first full year of rebuild. We went into 2016 expecting to be top eight. Or are you with the worlds worst journalist who has no journalistic integrity or at least is on par with Cathy Newman, Kim bloody Hackdorn? So if we make the finals in 2020 we are three years in. Stop calling it 'our' as you are more than likely a scum supporter or a st kilda fan.

 

[jedi mind tricks]

Piss off troll.

2017 first full year of rebuild. We went into 2016 expecting to be top eight. Or are you with the worlds worst journalist who has no journalistic integrity or at least is on par with Cathy Newman, Kim bloody Hackdorn? So if we make the finals in 2020 we are three years in. Stop calling it 'our' as you are more than likely a scum supporter or a st kilda fan.

It's Clay Davis or as some know him as Clogged

 

[dominguez]

We collapsed before we turned over the list. What went wrong?

We brought in Hale and Guerra, tried to copy Hawthorn's kicking game, and failed.

 

[mightymouse75]

Those years are terrible. Only car and Tarrant were b+ graders And they both walked. Long live ross

 

[malpaso]

When Ross renewed his contract 3 years ago . In his speech to the members he said to strap ourselves in for an exciting ride .Well i'm strapped in and so far it's about as exciting as the merry go round at the zoo.

See the problem with your outlook is you took that to mean all 'excitement' whereas Ross meant some highs and lows (like a rollercoaster) hence the need for a seat belt. It constantly amazes me how the majority of AFL fans don't understand the term 'rebuild' and what that entails and equate a bad game/performance with everything is off the rails..

 

[malpaso]

We brought in Hale and Guerra, tried to copy Hawthorn's kicking game, and failed.

Maybe, but I think it was pretty obvious we didn't have the cattle to do that. I think they instead brought in two capable and experienced ex-players who had teaching credentials and had been exposed to success.

 

[its free real estate]

Piss off troll.

2017 first full year of rebuild. We went into 2016 expecting to be top eight. Or are you with the worlds worst journalist who has no journalistic integrity or at least is on par with Cathy Newman, Kim bloody Hackdorn? So if we make the finals in 2020 we are three years in. Stop calling it 'our' as you are more than likely a scum supporter or a st kilda fan.

Not a troll.

Saying 'rebuild started in 2017' means 2016 was what exactly? Do we simply accept a four win season as par for the course? How did the club screw up so badly? How did it misread the list to the point where we lost 11 games in a row?

We're tracking for 20 wins over three seasons, another season or two like this and it's the worst stretch in our history. If this is 'sustained success' then so were the Harvey and Connolly eras.

No finals until 2020 is simply shit house: where is the accountability for that? Who is taking ownership of this enormous blunder?

 

[its free real estate]

We brought in Hale and Guerra, tried to copy Hawthorn's kicking game, and failed.

There are a number of possible reasons why - changes to the rules, natural decline of an ageing list, trying to change game plans to something we didn't have the talent for. The problem is no one is taking ownership of the overall mistakes. Our drafting is poor, our list is in poor shape, we are miles off finding a senior league quality key forward, and we still have holes in numerous areas of the ground. Eg our midfield still struggles without Sandilands, who is 35 years old! Imagine if you had told someone in 2011, before Ross came on board, that in 2018 we still wouldn't have reliable replacements for Pav, McPharlin and Sandilands.

What do we do about this dilemma? Ross will be the one ultimately blamed, as all coaches are, but is he the one who should be accountable first?

Thank you to jedi mind tricks for outing me, but I might as well state it clearly. This multi-season run of poor performance is exactly what I predicted four years ago. These problems were foreseeable and the club took no action to mitigate them.

I don't see any path out of this mire unless some sort of Buddy quality forward lands in our lap by a stroke of luck.

 

[jedi mind tricks]

There are a number of possible reasons why - changes to the rules, natural decline of an ageing list, trying to change game plans to something we didn't have the talent for. The problem is no one is taking ownership of the overall mistakes. Our drafting is poor, our list is in poor shape, we are miles off finding a senior league quality key forward, and we still have holes in numerous areas of the ground. Eg our midfield still struggles without Sandilands, who is 35 years old! Imagine if you had told someone in 2011, before Ross came on board, that in 2018 we still wouldn't have reliable replacements for Pav, McPharlin and Sandilands.

What do we do about this dilemma? Ross will be the one ultimately blamed, as all coaches are, but is he the one who should be accountable first?

Thank you to jedi mind tricks for outing me, but I might as well state it clearly. This multi-season run of poor performance is exactly what I predicted four years ago. These problems were foreseeable and the club took no action to mitigate them.

I don't see any path out of this mire unless some sort of Buddy quality forward lands in our lap by a stroke of luck.

No problem

Thanks for the I told you so nostradamus

Your comments are rubbish re the club has done no action to mitigate them.

Lloyd and the other recruiters try each year to draft the best players. Unfortunately some have failed such as Morra. You can't predict this.

Freo has tried to trade/buy free agents and hasn't worked out but not through lack if trying.

You have re appeared with an agenda

 

[Square Peg]

You have re appeared with an agenda

Maybe his agenda is the same one he always had, to analyse, sometimes scathingly, why Freo aren't better? I always like Clay's posts even though he seems to hate everyone in the world. Hopefully you mods go easy on him so he stays around longer this time

 

[its free real estate]

No problem

Thanks for the I told you so nostradamus

Your comments are rubbish re the club has done no action to mitigate them.

Lloyd and the other recruiters try each year to draft the best players. Unfortunately some have failed such as Morra. You can't predict this.

Freo has tried to trade/buy free agents and hasn't worked out but not through lack if trying.

You have re appeared with an agenda

Yes, the agenda is that I have no faith in the club finding its way out of this mess, outside of the usual osmotic pressure that results from picking up high draft picks due to being near the bottom for an extended period of time. You started both this and the melt thread, so I know that in your heart of hearts you agree with me.

 

[jedi mind tricks]

Yes, the agenda is that I have no faith in the club finding its way out of this mess, outside of the usual osmotic pressure that results from picking up high draft picks due to being near the bottom for an extended period of time. You started both this and the melt thread, so I know that in your heart of hearts you agree with me.

There's a difference between doing nothing as you stated and ending in the bottom third of the ladder and trying through free agency and trade period each off season to rectify this.

So no I don't agree with you. If that was the case then I'd want Lloyd sacked which I clearly don't.

I'm not totally sold on Ross plus coaching staff plus the S and C department. The threads was my reaction to not playing the youth when clearly playing some of the senior players while we were getting thumped wasn't helping our development

 

[_007_]

There are a number of possible reasons why - changes to the rules, natural decline of an ageing list, trying to change game plans to something we didn't have the talent for. The problem is no one is taking ownership of the overall mistakes. Our drafting is poor, our list is in poor shape, we are miles off finding a senior league quality key forward, and we still have holes in numerous areas of the ground. Eg our midfield still struggles without Sandilands, who is 35 years old! Imagine if you had told someone in 2011, before Ross came on board, that in 2018 we still wouldn't have reliable replacements for Pav, McPharlin and Sandilands.

What do we do about this dilemma? Ross will be the one ultimately blamed, as all coaches are, but is he the one who should be accountable first?

Thank you to jedi mind tricks for outing me, but I might as well state it clearly. This multi-season run of poor performance is exactly what I predicted four years ago. These problems were foreseeable and the club took no action to mitigate them.

I don't see any path out of this mire unless some sort of Buddy quality forward lands in our lap by a stroke of luck.

Welcome back

 

[its free real estate]

There's a difference between doing nothing as you stated and ending in the bottom third of the ladder and trying through free agency and trade period each off season to rectify this.

Trying isn't enough. Oldman Docker already listed the ways we have recruited poorly through F/A and trade, picking up players with off field discipline issues. This is compounded by our overall drafting strategy leaving us with little to show for it from the 2010, 2012, and 2015 drafts. Even 2011, which was somewhat more fruitful, is looking like a failure. There are too many misses for it to be written off as 'bad luck'.

There needs to be accountability. We shouldn't be three years out of finals without dramatically changing something at the end of this year.

 

[Son of a Wizard]

Ross gets until this time next year for me. If we are not in or threatening for finals then I’m done. Until then I’m keeping the faith.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[dockshark]

Personally I’m moving further towards the remove Ross The Boss camp.

However, as someone who works and consults in the Executive Management space, I will say that the most effective operations never remove a senior leader without identifying a suitable successor.

The way that the club replaced Mark Harvey was subject to scrutiny and criticism due to the nature of the public interest in football clubs. Reality is that what the club did is not at all unusual for medium and large organisations and they should be commended for the attracting talent they believed they required.

Short of some kind of gross misconduct requiring immediate removal (arguably already happened) the club should in my view be looking at all possible options to find the best successor on the market (or not on the market as it may be).

We should be identifying the right person for the job (Clarkson, Caracalla, Longmuir etc) and going after them. We are well resourced and can afford to pay what’s required to get the deal done.

 

[its free real estate]

Personally I’m moving further towards the remove Ross The Boss camp.

However, as someone who works and consults in the Executive Management space, I will say that the most effective operations never remove a senior leader without identifying a suitable successor.

Yes, until/unless someone better is available, we need to see out Ross's contract.

That doesn't mean we pad time until 2020 though. We need to:

1. Bolster the assistant coaching group. If that means getting coaches that might make Ross uncomfortable, so be it.
2. Begin the search for a new football operations manager. The biggest operations coup in Chris Bond's time was getting Lyon, and that was masterminded by our CEO. (I have heard rumours that this is already underway)
3. Search for a new list manager / head of recruitment. The bulk of the talent that took us to 2013 GF was recruited before Brad Lloyd took the role. Nothing he has recruited since his appointment and the removal of our previous recruiter looks likely to deliver a GF appearance.