List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

[dominguez]

I feel it'll be too late then. Fyfe, Mundy, Sandi definitely won't be around in 2021 and if we don't progress next year, we'll more than likely lose Neale, Langdon and Cerra among others by 2021. Which means another rebuild.

Should have acted last year. Definitely need massive changes this year.

Fyfe will be 29 during the 2021 season and is contracted until the end of 2023.

 

[Rion]

To illustrate the restraints imposed on all coaches (if the clubs are properly run) look at Jake Lever. Ross publicly spoke of how much he admired Lever several times leading up to and after the draft (i.e., HINT HINT Lloydy!) and I've been told he argued hard for him to be selected with our first round pick. But the drafting committee, with the rule change firmly in their mind, overruled him and took the nippy Weller. The same happened with Fagan and Brayshaw. I don't have examples on Ross and the match committee but the dust-ups between Bond and Harvs were legendary, with Harvs always losing.

My point is this - committees exist for a reason. The coach can argue his case but at the end of the day he only has one vote.

Agree, he's paid the big bucks and given the resources to put together the over-arching strategy and shape the philosophy. And while we might agree that this season is better than the last our opinions will probably differ on whether the improvement has been sufficient.

But the autocratic image painted of Ross is wrong, at least according to Luke McPharlin. At a recent coterie function my friend attended he spoke of how Ross was the first coach to break this mould; several time Luke emphasised the term "feedback model" and how responsibility for communicating and policing player/game standards (philosophy) was discussed and agreed with the leadership group who took ownership and looped back to Ross. So while there's no doubt Ross can and does tear strips off people, it's not the old school "I told you to do xxx!!!" it's more like "You agreed to do xxx, you're capable of doing it and you've done it in the past so why the f**k aren't you doing it now?!!"

I think this is definitely the case with fringe selections. Listening to Hird on his podcast he talked in one ep about how he and his match committee spent 5+ hours deliberating on whether to select one half-forward over another (can't remember who they actually were). I just can't see a world where for example Ross wants to go into a game with 2 ruck-men or 3 forwards and Bond overrules him.

I respect that he involves the players like that but what I mean is that ultimately it's up to Ross if he want to play a forward half pressure game, a focus on long bombs up the wing, a rebound from half back game etc. Everything I've read about him is that at least with his assistants it is very much my way or the highway, in comparison to what Dimma/Buckley have done over the last couple of seasons.

I think he gives the players a lot of agency to set the standards etc but they have to play HIS game-plan. I thought this was the reason that was given that it took us a little bit of time in 2012 (and for all the youngsters that come into the team throughout his entire tenure) to adapt to his style. Ross has always been known as a coach that has very set structures and doesn't let his teams play with the flair/instinct that other clubs might (and that's why when we were up and running we were so good defensively).

 

[its free real estate]

Fyfe will be 29 during the 2021 season and is contracted until the end of 2023.

Posts like these are sad echoes of the same ones made about Pav 10 years ago.

 

[Okinakashi]

Posts like these are sad echoes of the same ones made about Pav 10 years ago.

I'm not sure I understand?

Pav captained a Grand Final Team at 31. Then played another 3 seasons.

 

[eastfreo75]

Yes, until/unless someone better is available, we need to see out Ross's contract.

That doesn't mean we pad time until 2020 though. We need to:

1. Bolster the assistant coaching group. If that means getting coaches that might make Ross uncomfortable, so be it.
2. Begin the search for a new football operations manager. The biggest operations coup in Chris Bond's time was getting Lyon, and that was masterminded by our CEO. (I have heard rumours that this is already underway)
3. Search for a new list manager / head of recruitment. The bulk of the talent that took us to 2013 GF was recruited before Brad Lloyd took the role. Nothing he has recruited since his appointment and the removal of our previous recruiter looks likely to deliver a GF appearance.

Last two drafts I thought has been pretty good.

2018 Brayshaw, Cerra , Crowden, Banfield and Giro all have shown something.

2017 Logue, Ryan, Darcy, Cox, and Duman are pretty good.

That's 6 players in our best 22 (will be best 22 in any team) with 4 players who might make it.

I think is has improved.

 

[poshman]

Not a troll.

Saying 'rebuild started in 2017' means 2016 was what exactly? Do we simply accept a four win season as par for the course? How did the club screw up so badly? How did it misread the list to the point where we lost 11 games in a row?

We're tracking for 20 wins over three seasons, another season or two like this and it's the worst stretch in our history. If this is 'sustained success' then so were the Harvey and Connolly eras.

No finals until 2020 is simply shit house: where is the accountability for that? Who is taking ownership of this enormous blunder?

Definitely a troll. You would slam the trading of draft picks for older proven players as we have in the past. Yet also slam rebuilding through the draft.

Did you expect us to go through 2012-2015 levels of success and not have a drop in results? Anything but an admittance to that question is pure BS and proves that you are a troll or complete degenerate.

Yes it started in 2017 as we expected to be in the finals (as I stated) in 2016. Most experts and on here expected us to drop off a little but not how we did. I for one was saying that we should drop all the foot soldiers half way through 2015 as Danyle etc weren't good enough. This isn't an unwillingness on my behalf to criticise the club, it is simply an unwillingness to play hindsight hero, apply zero perspective and create a narrative that suits my neurotic catastrophizing.

Of course, it will be our poorest stretch since Drum and it makes sense that it is. There are some very obvious reasons why... Can you be intellectually honest and name them? I will give you a hint - we still had an All Australian level spine in its prime for that period. In fact if as mentioned above, drafting hadn't been so incredibly shite we wouldn't have suffered as we did. We should have been a great team from 2006 - 2015 with the players we had. On top of that spine we had a core group of solid B level players coming through. These players were able to develop in a team with class or an A grader on every line and three champions of the game. We should never have gone through this period and if we didn't make the shite trades we did to 'push us over the top' we would have been far better positioned beyond this period.

This true rebuild - having lost the entirety (almost of that spine and or having them well past prime) we can say we started with one A+ player (Fyfe) one B+ - A Grader in Sandi who is limited to 12-14 games per year due to age and one B+ - A grader in Neale. I would argue a fit and played in midfield S Hill is B+ to A grade also but we haven't seen it consistently enough recently. Plus Walters = A level small forward with C level brain fades. Outside from that we had very little. And outside of Fyfe and Sandi (severe games restrication) none are structural essentials that we had for the previous period.

In the course of a few trade and draft periods we have:

Created a potential long term, league leading back line = Two quality KPD - two quality outlet options plus mids rotating through and Logue could be anything.

Developed the mid unit to now boast - Hill/Hill - Fyfe - Neale - plus what I am confident will be two A graders in Brayshaw and Cerra. Langdon is developing into a weapon on the wing and blakely will roll through there. Banfield looks like he will be at least a solid long term contributor also.

Developed Cox and Tabs as long term KPF options - both are trending to be at least very good players. Cox could be a great player.

While we have one of the best young ruck talents in the league in Darcy and I personally have hope that Apeness will be able top play well as a back up Ruck/Forward option who can play both roles effectively.

If at the end of the 2o16 season I had said we would be in this position, most here would have mocked me for being too positive. We are well on the way to rebuilding the spine of the team and having a strong, long term competitive midfield with a high pick in the coming strong draft to add. Troll!

 

[jedi mind tricks]

Definitely a troll. You would slam the trading of draft picks for older proven players as we have in the past. Yet also slam rebuilding through the draft.

Did you expect us to go through 2012-2015 levels of success and not have a drop in results? Anything but an admittance to that question is pure BS and proves that you are a troll or complete degenerate.

Yes it started in 2017 as we expected to be in the finals (as I stated) in 2016. Most experts and on here expected us to drop off a little but not how we did. I for one was saying that we should drop all the foot soldiers half way through 2015 as Danyle etc weren't good enough. This isn't an unwillingness on my behalf to criticise the club, it is simply an unwillingness to play hindsight hero, apply zero perspective and create a narrative that suits my neurotic catastrophizing.

Of course, it will be our poorest stretch since Drum and it makes sense that it is. There are some very obvious reasons why... Can you be intellectually honest and name them? I will give you a hint - we still had an All Australian level spine in its prime for that period. In fact if as mentioned above, drafting hadn't been so incredibly shite we wouldn't have suffered as we did. We should have been a great team from 2006 - 2015 with the players we had. On top of that spine we had a core group of solid B level players coming through. These players were able to develop in a team with class or an A grader on every line and three champions of the game. We should never have gone through this period and if we didn't make the shite trades we did to 'push us over the top' we would have been far better positioned beyond this period.

This true rebuild - having lost the entirety (almost of that spine and or having them well past prime) we can say we started with one A+ player (Fyfe) one B+ - A Grader in Sandi who is limited to 12-14 games per year due to age and one B+ - A grader in Neale. I would argue a fit and played in midfield S Hill is B+ to A grade also but we haven't seen it consistently enough recently. Plus Walters = A level small forward with C level brain fades. Outside from that we had very little. And outside of Fyfe and Sandi (severe games restrication) none are structural essentials that we had for the previous period.

In the course of a few trade and draft periods we have:

Created a potential long term, league leading back line = Two quality KPD - two quality outlet options plus mids rotating through and Logue could be anything.

Developed the mid unit to now boast - Hill/Hill - Fyfe - Neale - plus what I am confident will be two A graders in Brayshaw and Cerra. Langdon is developing into a weapon on the wing and blakely will roll through there. Banfield looks like he will be at least a solid long term contributor also.

Developed Cox and Tabs as long term KPF options - both are trending to be at least very good players. Cox could be a great player.

While we have one of the best young ruck talents in the league in Darcy and I personally have hope that Apeness will be able top play well as a back up Ruck/Forward option who can play both roles effectively.

If at the end of the 2o16 season I had said we would be in this position, most here would have mocked me for being too positive. We are well on the way to rebuilding the spine of the team and having a strong, long term competitive midfield with a high pick in the coming strong draft to add. Troll!

Well this pretty much sums it up

 

[its free real estate]

Did you expect us to go through 2012-2015 levels of success and not have a drop in results? Anything but an admittance to that question is pure BS and proves that you are a troll or complete degenerate.

I did expect to have a drop in results, I regularly stated that what was to come would happen and was pilloried for doing so. But I didn't expect that it was a natural consequence after three years of top four appearances. That's an ordinary run of success that doesn't necessitate collapse. The reason why we collapsed was because the list was fundamentally not good enough, not because we had been too good for too long.

Everyone on here laughs at St Kilda, and they deserve derision, but between 2004-2011 they made top four five times (out of eight seasons) only missing finals once. Their collapse was after a fairly sustained period of relative success. Ours was much, much shorter.

All of your hopes on certain players coming good rest on contingent probabilities. If all the stars align then maybe we'll be fine, but we've said that ever since 1995. We need an overhaul of the football department.

 

[its free real estate]

Last two drafts I thought has been pretty good.

2018 Brayshaw, Cerra , Crowden, Banfield and Giro all have shown something.

2017 Logue, Ryan, Darcy, Cox, and Duman are pretty good.

That's 6 players in our best 22 (will be best 22 in any team) with 4 players who might make it.

I think is has improved.

Bolded are good or promising, rest are Broughton/Crichton types. Won't get games in a serious team.

 

[Fyfster]

See the problem with your outlook is you took that to mean all 'excitement' whereas Ross meant some highs and lows (like a rollercoaster) hence the need for a seat belt. It constantly amazes me how the majority of AFL fans don't understand the term 'rebuild' and what that entails and equate a bad game/performance with everything is off the rails..

We had finished top the year before. I don't think he was talking rebuild, restumping, rewiring or whatever he wanted to call it until the tenth straight loss ten games into his new contract. Trust me he was talking it up at that meeting . But if it makes you feel better maybe i was misunderstanding his optimism .

 

[eastfreo75]

Bolded are good or promising, rest are Broughton/Crichton types. Won't get games in a serious team.

You have an axe to grind.

Some people are fans but not supporters.

 

[poshman]

I did expect to have a drop in results, I regularly stated that what was to come would happen and was pilloried for doing so. But I didn't expect that it was a natural consequence after three years of top four appearances. That's an ordinary run of success that doesn't necessitate collapse. The reason why we collapsed was because the list was fundamentally not good enough, not because we had been too good for too long.

Everyone on here laughs at St Kilda, and they deserve derision, but between 2004-2011 they made top four five times (out of eight seasons) only missing finals once. Their collapse was after a fairly sustained period of relative success. Ours was much, much shorter.

All of your hopes on certain players coming good rest on contingent probabilities. If all the stars align then maybe we'll be fine, but we've said that ever since 1995. We need an overhaul of the football department.

So you didn't answer many of my questions but at least it was a more thoughtful answer.

It wasn't the natural consequence of four finals appearances in four years it was the natural consequence of poor drafting earlier and having champions of the game past prime or out of the club. Our failure which should rightly be strongly criticised was wasting so much of the Pav - McPharlin - Johnson - Sandi - Mundy years. Pav kicked high 60 - 70 plus goals years on end in a shoddily organized team on and off the park. When champions go (and are not replaced by champions - teams have significant fall offs unless they can get free agents) the options are trade picks and hope to not bottom out or go through the draft. We have gone through the draft while I believe securing some top players for very little at the trade table. We weren't good for too long, but we should have been was my argument. The spine of a successful 4 year run was here when Ross arrived. It was just at the twilight of its peak.

As for hopes for certain players, yes, of course, they are partly hopes, but also judgment made on the exposed form. now if those players don't develop (unless through injury) then I agree we should overhaul the footy department. And the one area I am concerned about in our department is S&C - we have had so many injuries. But that is a different topic.

Let's try the below: Please rate the potential or your expectancy for each group then the individuals, I have already stated the reasons why I am so positive. I haven't done all but a think a fairly broad selection.

Mids = Long term group ceiling?

Individually:
Brad Hill =
S Hill =
Fyfe =
Neale =
Langdon =
Blaklely =
Cerra =
Brayshaw =
Tucker =
Banfield =
Sean Darcy = (put rucks here to shorten)
Jones =
Strnnnnaaddddcaaaa =



Backs = Long term where do you rate them as a group?

Individually:
Wilson =
Ryan =
Pearce =
Hamling =
Logue =
Nyhuis =
Duman =

Forwards =

Tabs =
Cox =
McCarthy =
Walters =
Apeness =


If only I could add Bennell... Who I still think was a great trade for the club.

Yes we need better depth and I would say this will come with exposed form of the above and the coming draft and trade period.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Bolded are good or promising, rest are Broughton/Crichton types. Won't get games in a serious team.

That is ridiculously harsh on Banfield more than anyone

 

[TheLoris]

Not sure why people still think Ross is the man. He's had 2 very strong lists and hasn't managed to get the job done either time. Tactically he is very set in his ways and personally think we should be looking elsewhere for someone to take the club forward. He's been given incredible latitude by the club given he hasn't delivered a premiership.

Great talker though and would make a fantastic politician. Although once you've heard his spiel too many times, it gets a bit repetitive.

Him and his manager did an awesome job getting a 4 year extension though, absolutely took the Freo board for suckers. Rosich and whoever else was responsible for that decision should be the first to get the arse. But we all know that won't happen as they aren't really accountable due to the board being basically just a rubber stamp.

 

[its free real estate]

That is ridiculously harsh on Banfield more than anyone

I like Banfield but I also liked a lot of players in the past who never quite made it, and he reminds me of that group.

If you count the number I bolded, that's six out of 10 draftees from 2016-17 that I think have high promise. That's pretty optimistic given the previous five years of drafting.

 

[MadDocker]

Not sure why people still think Ross is the man. He's had 2 very strong lists and hasn't managed to get the job done either time. Tactically he is very set in his ways and personally think we should be looking elsewhere for someone to take the club forward. He's been given incredible latitude by the club given he hasn't delivered a premiership.
Great talker though and would make a fantastic politician. Although once you've heard his spiel too many times, it gets a bit repetitive.

Him and his manager did an awesome job getting a 4 year extension though, absolutely took the Freo board for suckers. Rosich and whoever else was responsible for that decision should be the first to get the arse. But we all know that won't happen as they aren't really accountable due to the board being basically just a rubber stamp.

There's only been 14 premiership coaches in the last 20 years. I'm not 100% sure on the total amount of coaches during this time but the number is much larger than that and not many coaches manage to get it done. Ross has taken a team to the big dance a couple of times and been in a winning position a couple of times. To elude to him being all talk, treating the board like suckers by getting a contract and not being a good coach is naive at best. He may not ever get it done but his record is better than any previous coach we've had and only time will tell.

 

[TheLoris]

There's only been 14 premiership coaches in the last 20 years. I'm not 100% sure on the total amount of coaches during this time but the number is much larger than that and not many coaches manage to get it done. Ross has taken a team to the big dance a couple of times and been in a winning position a couple of times. To elude to him being all talk, treating the board like suckers by getting a contract and not being a good coach is naive at best. He may not ever get it done but his record is better than any previous coach we've had and only time will tell.

Obviously winning a flag is difficult, but I think most people were 'surprised' when he got a 4 year extension. When people make deals, usually there are winners and losers, and clearly Ross was a winner here. The club really should be going in a new direction now, but are stuck in a position where they have to stay with Ross, due to some extremely poor contract negotiating.

 

[MadDocker]

Obviously winning a flag is difficult, but I think most people were 'surprised' when he got a 4 year extension. When people make deals, usually there are winners and losers, and clearly Ross was a winner here. The club really should be going in a new direction now, but are stuck in a position where they have to stay with Ross, due to some extremely poor contract negotiating.

I don't see it this way. Doesn't mean I'm right and your wrong (probably does though, lol).

The 4 year extension was required for "the rebuild". There would be no benefit to signing a 1 or 2 year deal as then the pressure is on the coach to preform and get results which means less focus can be on playing the youth and rebuilding. Ross put a proposal forward outlining a 4 year plan, the club bought in and gave him the opportunity. It may or may not work out the way Ross and/or the club intended after the 4 years but in no way do I see it as poor negotiations from the club. There was a better chance Ross could get it done than some mug like Sumich or another hit and hope we could of signed instead.

 

[Dormammu]

I think this is definitely the case with fringe selections. I just can't see a world where for example Ross wants to go into a game with 2 ruck-men or 3 forwards and Bond overrules him.

I should clarify that there are more than just Ross and Bond on the match committee, though you probably knew this. And as most players "select themselves" on form, yes, it's probably the last 6 that are up for debate. But again, these days no AFL coach, as Hird discovered, has the right of veto.

I respect that he involves the players like that but what I mean is that ultimately it's up to Ross if he want to play a forward half pressure game, a focus on long bombs up the wing, a rebound from half back game etc.

Most definitely and he'd adjust tactics at each quarter break. Though with the rule limiting the amount of time runners can spend on the ground there's greater responsibility now on players in all teams (particularly those in the leadership group) to exercise initiative and make changes if the situation demands it.

Everything I've read about him is that at least with his assistants it is very much my way or the highway, in comparison to what Dimma/Buckley have done over the last couple of seasons.

I don't have the numbers to hand but I'd wager there's been little difference in the turnover of assistant coaches across Fremantle, Pies and Tigers. Didn't the Tigers have a large cull at the end of 2016? I do agree that Ross would be a demanding senior coach, yet Prior is still there and he was appointed by Harvs. And Dodger has been there since Ross's first year, ditto Eastaugh (though he did spend some time at the Slime in between).

I think he gives the players a lot of agency to set the standards etc but they have to play HIS game-plan. I thought this was the reason that was given that it took us a little bit of time in 2012 (and for all the youngsters that come into the team throughout his entire tenure) to adapt to his style. Ross has always been known as a coach that has very set structures and doesn't let his teams play with the flair/instinct that other clubs might (and that's why when we were up and running we were so good defensively).

I should think that most teams will take some time to find their legs with a new game plan. And you're right, it's his game plan, but it has to be flexible over the course of a season, game, quarter. It's the same challenge that faces all coaches these days as injury, loss of form, technology (GPS, video etc) renders a lot of tactics obsolete very quickly. I think Ross has had to change, even when he didn't want to (persisting with two rucks for example). And I agree that we're not playing with flair, but few teams do these days, it's all sling-shot. I do think that we're moving the ball a lot quicker and cleaner than last season, and I think that's the club's key focus this year.

 

[TheLoris]

I don't see it this way. Doesn't mean I'm right and your wrong (probably does though, lol).

The 4 year extension was required for "the rebuild". There would be no benefit to signing a 1 or 2 year deal as then the pressure is on the coach to preform and get results which means less focus can be on playing the youth and rebuilding. Ross put a proposal forward outlining a 4 year plan, the club bought in and gave him the opportunity. It may or may not work out the way Ross and/or the club intended after the 4 years but in no way do I see it as poor negotiations from the club. There was a better chance Ross could get it done than some mug like Sumich or another hit and hope we could of signed instead.

Yeah, there is no right or wrong as we are talking hypotheticals haha............but to me, 2 years should have been the deal, do a good job, get extended. 4 years after no flag seemed excessive and if it was me(it wasn't), I would never give that deal, as it takes the heat off and most people work better under a bit of pressure. Regardless, I don't see Ross ever winning a flag with the way the game is changing. I feel he is reactive now, as others are leading the way. We have a young group and reckon we need some fresh ideas to take them forward.

 

[Scham]

JLo didn't sell his home when moving to Vic and it's just sitting unused. Waiting for the market to bounce back or planning on returning soon???

 

[wafti123]

Yeah, there is no right or wrong as we are talking hypotheticals haha............but to me, 2 years should have been the deal, do a good job, get extended. 4 years after no flag seemed excessive and if it was me(it wasn't), I would never give that deal, as it takes the heat off and most people work better under a bit of pressure. Regardless, I don't see Ross ever winning a flag with the way the game is changing. I feel he is reactive now, as others are leading the way. We have a young group and reckon we need some fresh ideas to take them forward.

The heat will be on next year. This is the last year where not breaking even is understandable.

 

[Son of a Wizard]

Definitely a troll. You would slam the trading of draft picks for older proven players as we have in the past. Yet also slam rebuilding through the draft.

Did you expect us to go through 2012-2015 levels of success and not have a drop in results? Anything but an admittance to that question is pure BS and proves that you are a troll or complete degenerate.

Yes it started in 2017 as we expected to be in the finals (as I stated) in 2016. Most experts and on here expected us to drop off a little but not how we did. I for one was saying that we should drop all the foot soldiers half way through 2015 as Danyle etc weren't good enough. This isn't an unwillingness on my behalf to criticise the club, it is simply an unwillingness to play hindsight hero, apply zero perspective and create a narrative that suits my neurotic catastrophizing.

Of course, it will be our poorest stretch since Drum and it makes sense that it is. There are some very obvious reasons why... Can you be intellectually honest and name them? I will give you a hint - we still had an All Australian level spine in its prime for that period. In fact if as mentioned above, drafting hadn't been so incredibly shite we wouldn't have suffered as we did. We should have been a great team from 2006 - 2015 with the players we had. On top of that spine we had a core group of solid B level players coming through. These players were able to develop in a team with class or an A grader on every line and three champions of the game. We should never have gone through this period and if we didn't make the shite trades we did to 'push us over the top' we would have been far better positioned beyond this period.

This true rebuild - having lost the entirety (almost of that spine and or having them well past prime) we can say we started with one A+ player (Fyfe) one B+ - A Grader in Sandi who is limited to 12-14 games per year due to age and one B+ - A grader in Neale. I would argue a fit and played in midfield S Hill is B+ to A grade also but we haven't seen it consistently enough recently. Plus Walters = A level small forward with C level brain fades. Outside from that we had very little. And outside of Fyfe and Sandi (severe games restrication) none are structural essentials that we had for the previous period.

In the course of a few trade and draft periods we have:

Created a potential long term, league leading back line = Two quality KPD - two quality outlet options plus mids rotating through and Logue could be anything.

Developed the mid unit to now boast - Hill/Hill - Fyfe - Neale - plus what I am confident will be two A graders in Brayshaw and Cerra. Langdon is developing into a weapon on the wing and blakely will roll through there. Banfield looks like he will be at least a solid long term contributor also.

Developed Cox and Tabs as long term KPF options - both are trending to be at least very good players. Cox could be a great player.

While we have one of the best young ruck talents in the league in Darcy and I personally have hope that Apeness will be able top play well as a back up Ruck/Forward option who can play both roles effectively.

If at the end of the 2o16 season I had said we would be in this position, most here would have mocked me for being too positive. We are well on the way to rebuilding the spine of the team and having a strong, long term competitive midfield with a high pick in the coming strong draft to add. Troll!

Best post I’ve read on Big Footy. Could not agree more.

 

[Spirit Level]

I can't see why he should be our coach next year.

The players look lost and there doesn't seem to be any sort of coherent system in place.

He hasn't learned from his mistakes, he isn't taking us forward.

 

[Deathly]

This board has really turned to shit off of one loss. I wish we saw this amount of necro-bumping / necro-quoting and reemergence of old and new accounts when we were winning.