Autopsy Round 11, 2024: Melbourne v St.Kilda

[SaintsSeptember]

I reckon 99% of all issues are out of the middle. Crouch helped hide how weak we were but with Seb going backwards as well we are absolutely uncompetitive now.

Seb is up and down, he's never been consistent, especially as an inside mid.
Everyone now and then he can pull a blinder.

 

[Sarcoidevo]

What really did me in today wasn't the soft as crepe paper efforts or the bone headed decision making it was Caminiti missing from 15 out to put us within a goal

As soon as he lined up for a straight shot I knew he was going to miss and as soon as he missed I knew we were done

Just soooooo demoralising and confidence sapping

RTB seemingly has no plan B ..... all I see is players marking space and the opposition picking through our loose net ... go man on man and let them play Ross.... release them and just let the players play on instinct .... you might leak a few but no more than what we are leaking now and we might actually kick a few more and put up a score .... if we are the ones that get a run on then it forces the opposition into making changes

Eagles favourites after getting pumped by 99pts shows you were we are at

Lastly if he doesnt leave make Battle captain

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Seb is up and down, he's never been consistent, especially as an inside mid.
Everyone now and then he can pull a blinder.

Seb is done ... thanks mate .... but time to hang em up

 

[g_TRAIN]

Right now for mine we are playing below our best by a substantial amount.

Our best is still not good enough and all the calls around our midfield etc. needing to improve are correct.

But yeah we're still miles off what this team is capable of for mine.

That said If I go down the negative path it doesn't do me any good. I would prefer to stay positive and believe in a positive future for now. (But maybe I'm burying my head in the sand)

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Because we'd drafted so badly since 2003, we'd been bleeding with players leaving faster than we could replace them.
That meant we were going to play gops one way or another.
But you're correct , at some point we should have just drafted the best we could and topped up with VFL players and the like.
4 years at the bottom then we would have risen.

Actually !!!! We did get state league players.
We managed to give up draft picks to get them.
Saad, Milera, Maister, Lee....

 

[Premium]

He is definitely rolling the dice desperately trying to come up with a better combination - midfield over the last few weeks has comprised Steele, Ross, Windy, Sincs, Dow, Henry, Owens, Jones, Pou (& probably some I have missed). Not sure there are too many more to experiment with.

Ps I agree Ross is not the way forward.

TOG Seb had more time than any midfielder - 86% add that with Steele and they were given the bulk of the time with Dow and Windhager filling the gaps , he hasn't given players a good crack and you can tell by time on ground - he is more interested in putting the clamps on the other teams mids instead of winning the ball ourselves.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Seb is done ... thanks mate .... but time to hang em up

Getting pretty close.
Right now i think i have Windy and Wilson ahead of him. So finally we have players who can push him out.
( Garcia and Byrnes not far off ).

 

[NoisyMinor]

Just wondering if it is a game plan issue when your players can’t hit a 2 metre handball of 15 metre kick can’t hold basic marks make countless bad decisions with ball in hand .

It's absolutely a game plan issue because the players have been trained to play a certain way and when they can't execute the same muscle memory, they have to adjust mid-action.

The games are not unfolding in the manner they've trained for and it's obviously too rigid for split-second adjustment.

 

[The Cobra]

TOG Seb had more time than any midfielder - 86% add that with Steele and they were given the bulk of the time with Dow and Windhager filling the gaps , he hasn't given players a good crack and you can tell by time on ground - he is more interested in putting the clamps on the other teams mids instead of winning the ball ourselves.

Fair enough - I missed Garcia - that’s 10 I think.

 

[Hugga]

Fair enough - I missed Garcia - that’s 10 I think.

+ Stocker

Sent from my SM-S711B using Tapatalk

 

[The Cobra]

Thank you - & counting!

 

[taurus]

He had 2 tackles which is the telling stat for me that he wasn't all there.

The guy averages 8 a game

Yes. WindJAEGER had only 1 freaking tackle! My tackles multi sunk badly due to them. Definitely off their game. Just maybe, the weekly mantra of defending to win isn't working anymore.

 

[Premium]

They don't actually have an elite midfield. I think that's why Lyon rated them. A lot of good outside run but their kicking and skills look better. They dropped away last year when tested by injury. Cameron, Stewart and Danger are their absolute cream The rest are good but not outstanding.

There midfield has been performing just look at Max Holmes he is actually killing it at the moment , not because he is picking up 30+ possessions but he is dangerous when he uses it.
Add on Duncan , Tanner Bruhn , Parfitt , Miers , Clark and Dempsey -- they might not be stars but I would back all of them to beat Seb Ross.

 

[TheJackal]

Individually, there were some real disappointing efforts today.

- Bonner, he is good for half a dozen absolutely diabolical turnovers a game. I get the feeling we will persist but he doesn't provide us with anything that Arie or Hastie couldn't at half back.

- King, that effort in the middle of the ground with deplorable. First of all didn't bother making a contest then gave away 50 with lazy football. He did a few ok things, but he and Caminiti allowed May (and Tomlinson) to dominate us. King isn't a monster, but he plays bruise free footy nonetheless and his lack of intensity and drive out there is telling.

- Caminiti, the kid is a very (mentally) immature footballer, very frustrating to watch. Tries to make contests and contribute, but has a LOT to learn.

- Owens, Mitchito seems to be immune to criticism of his game. He's been ok in the past few weeks, for example his kicking for goal has shown massive improvements. To me, he needs to impact more - he's no longer a teenager and I think we give him too much grace because he's explosive. If he has another couple of quiet weeks, I want him to follow Pou's path to develop in the seconds.

- Collard may have been poor, but when he is lining up on Tomlinson (or whichever other tall defender it was) and getting into dangerous spots - delivery in the form of a slow kick to the top of his head isn't the smartest play.

- Ro had an uncharacteristically poor game today around the ground, regardless of that he needs to figure out how to nullify a good tap ruckman.

- Sinclair, he is half the player he was last year. He isn't playing poorly, but he is playing like a GOP. Certainly not the AA half back we had last year, he's gone back to the nearly player he was before his move to the backline.

- Steele, since he hurt his knee he has been angry. He looks so frustrated out there. That play in the middle where he just gave up, walked off the ground and yelled at the bench was such a bad look for a captain and completely unexpected. He is carrying a poor midfield and the frustration is showing - he almost looks disillusioned at this point.

- Dow, working his way into it, expectations may need to be lowered a bit but he was far from embarrassed out there. Tough to expect him to come in and be our midfield saviour.

This handball/chipping game we are playing is disgusting, it simply does not work with the pressure the oppo puts on us. We just don't have the skills (under pressure) and smarts to pull it off.

There was a passage of play today where we chipped it around for a bit on the hbf, only to dump kick it straight to Gawn. Half of the problem is we are so easy to read. There was next to no movement and no hard running - our game plan was telegraphed to the point where it is easy pickings for the intercept in a dangerous position.

I can't actually see us getting out of this rut. It's a pretty pessimistic way to look at things, I'm sure we'll show some form eventually though. So what can i do other than complain?

• Crouch back in asap, will definitely help our midfield
• Forwards like Max need to work on their inside 50s along with the rest of the team
• Sharman as a sub does not work, to me he's a third tall forward good for a couple of goals a game - almost Membreys heir apparent. I would play him there and keep him there, having said that - Tim showed today he is too good for Sandy.
• Bonner out for Arie, the time has come
• Sinclair back to half backline
• Garcia back in, kid has heart and talent - get games into him and look to the future. Sorry Seb, love his endeavour, but it's time to step down.

We are in a world of pain right now, not much is working - but hey, we have pick 4 in the mid season draft! I hope we don't pick that 'from the clouds' Sandy long term prospect - at least I'll be interested in footy during the week with a high draft pick.

 

[Miha]

There’s a reason the club has intentionally allowed for so many OOC end of this year

 

[Teflon]

His commentary and notes were based on retention, not movement though. Of course we retain the ball cause we don’t attack with it.

It’s equally as easy to find a stat to defend Ross if that’s your angle but lemme tell you, there’s ALOT of long term data and stats to show Ross is a defense first coach. I did them to death all ****ing week and I actually was hoping to find maybe I was wrong.

No he spoke of our ball movement from D50 being as good as most teams
Didn’t just talk retention
Also made the point that this makes sense - our better ball users are all HB
Midfield….completely different story and decision making into F50 diabolical
It’s good analysis but many wont acknowledge it
Just easy to say “oh it’s Ross Lyon doing what he always does..”

 

[Saint Watto]

Good value too the eagles.

Saints won 1 of our last 5 which was against the bottom feeders at home.
Eagles won 1 of the last 5 against the demons at home.

Eagles home game.

Neither team has a single match winner.
McGov does save goals so that's something.

Both teams have good defences. Weak midfields. Eagles forwards function while the saints is on life support.

And the good news is...???

 

[Teflon]

Also I don’t think it’s all Ross’ fault. Our line coaches obviously aren’t great and our list isn’t exactly world beating but to think Ross isn’t part of the problem when his thing has always been low scoring, minimize error and score against even if it means we don’t score much is a bit silly.

But again I don’t agree Lyons saying to them “hey guys can we kick 7 goals this week”
The team has tried to go fast - they f k it up with comedy like errors …I mean just watching today showed that …check the turnover difference…that’s not coaching
Even batty ole Tim Watson noted today when Steele wins a clearance…and fails to kick the ball to our players out side advantage…so we win clearance …lost next posession
Melb just don’t do that
Their handballs aren’t at your feet
Or they don’t hand off to a player …with an opponent standing behind them …
Ross isn’t blameless ….but let’s not pretend he’s coaching that crsp
That’s on un skilled AFL players

 

[Teflon]

I gotta admit I looked at Steeles stats midway through the last and was absolutely shocked. 30 odd and a goal is a good game by any standards but if someone told me he had 15 handballs and 50 metres gained I would have believed it.

Roma is a bit more difficult. Ultimately to me the issue with him is that he’s not a good ruckman but he’s a handy extra onballer. Max gave him a bath today by absolutely belting him in the ruck and ensuring he was engaged enough to not be able to follow it up. Neat trick from Max and one that only like 3 ruckmen in the comp can actually do.

Roma is such an odd player and I’m loathe to criticize cause I know I’m overly negative but a lot of his stats are really misleading. Has a shitload of clearances but they’re not effective, has a lot of disposals but he’s not damaging with them. I’m really at a loss with Roma tbh.

Steele had 2 tackles
Wilson as a kid had 4
That tells u what you need to know about Steeles game..

 

[taurus]

What an insight. If you bothered to read what I said, Montagna is absolutely right, we do retain the ball well, but that’s not the same thing as moving the ball well.

He’s correct it’s just not a relevant stat to the point he’s making.


Again, I already answered this point. We weren’t playing Rossball for the first 10-12 weeks. Ross even admitted he was assessing the group before implementing a gameplan.

If you’re gonna contribute at least bother to read the posts you’re replying to

Rossball is a bad trip down the memory lane as Paul Roosball was the reason I stopped watching AFL and unfollowed the Swans after becoming a fan in the 90s. Those days, it was rare to follow AFL in Sydney - you got teased with a homophobic slur. Hence Roosball was so bad it made me fall out of love with the game I was so invested in.

It's in his DNA to play the defensive footy. You would think he would have evolved to adapt to the modern game but he just reverts to the same approach each week.

It's unfair to blame solely on Ross. Your midfield as you all know, isn't going to win a flag. Sinclair looks like regressed. Your forwards are mediocre, not terrible but not great neither. King has well known accuracy issues. Unjust suspension of Higgins killed any momentum you had.

Brad Hill and NWM are exciting players that seem to have shackles on them.

 

[Teflon]

Hmm, my memory was that it was indeed movement from D50 to F50, so not retention. The issue was flagged by Joey that we’re able to rebound, we just can’t get it inside 50 effectively.

A lot of that is around lacking any punch across the guts as well as having a relatively inexperienced forward line - I think today showed that, F50 actually looked much better with King and Higgins firing, we just had zero zip through the middle, no space to work with.

I think Lyon does like to have this side play with overlap through the back half, so to imply he just wants retention though there I think is misleading. If that was the case you’d see teams playing more a forward half possession game against us which would’ve counteracted stats shown by Joey.

That’s it
Wasn’t about retention

 

[SteeleSaints]

Individually, there were some real disappointing efforts today.

- Bonner, he is good for half a dozen absolutely diabolical turnovers a game. I get the feeling we will persist but he doesn't provide us with anything that Arie or Hastie couldn't at half back.

- King, that effort in the middle of the ground with deplorable. First of all didn't bother making a contest then gave away 50 with lazy football. He did a few ok things, but he and Caminiti allowed May (and Tomlinson) to dominate us. King isn't a monster, but he plays bruise free footy nonetheless and his lack of intensity and drive out there is telling.

- Caminiti, the kid is a very (mentally) immature footballer, very frustrating to watch. Tries to make contests and contribute, but has a LOT to learn.

- Owens, Mitchito seems to be immune to criticism of his game. He's been ok in the past few weeks, for example his kicking for goal has shown massive improvements. To me, he needs to impact more - he's no longer a teenager and I think we give him too much grace because he's explosive. If he has another couple of quiet weeks, I want him to follow Pou's path to develop in the seconds.

- Collard may have been poor, but when he is lining up on Tomlinson (or whichever other tall defender it was) and getting into dangerous spots - delivery in the form of a slow kick to the top of his head isn't the smartest play.

- Ro had an uncharacteristically poor game today around the ground, regardless of that he needs to figure out how to nullify a good tap ruckman.

- Sinclair, he is half the player he was last year. He isn't playing poorly, but he is playing like a GOP. Certainly not the AA half back we had last year, he's gone back to the nearly player he was before his move to the backline.

- Steele, since he hurt his knee he has been angry. He looks so frustrated out there. That play in the middle where he just gave up, walked off the ground and yelled at the bench was such a bad look for a captain and completely unexpected. He is carrying a poor midfield and the frustration is showing - he almost looks disillusioned at this point.

- Dow, working his way into it, expectations may need to be lowered a bit but he was far from embarrassed out there. Tough to expect him to come in and be our midfield saviour.

This handball/chipping game we are playing is disgusting, it simply does not work with the pressure the oppo puts on us. We just don't have the skills (under pressure) and smarts to pull it off.

There was a passage of play today where we chipped it around for a bit on the hbf, only to dump kick it straight to Gawn. Half of the problem is we are so easy to read. There was next to no movement and no hard running - our game plan was telegraphed to the point where it is easy pickings for the intercept in a dangerous position.

I can't actually see us getting out of this rut. It's a pretty pessimistic way to look at things, I'm sure we'll show some form eventually though. So what can i do other than complain?

• Crouch back in asap, will definitely help our midfield
• Forwards like Max need to work on their inside 50s along with the rest of the team
• Sharman as a sub does not work, to me he's a third tall forward good for a couple of goals a game - almost Membreys heir apparent. I would play him there and keep him there, having said that - Tim showed today he is too good for Sandy.
• Bonner out for Arie, the time has come
• Sinclair back to half backline
• Garcia back in, kid has heart and talent - get games into him and look to the future. Sorry Seb, love his endeavour, but it's time to step down.

We are in a world of pain right now, not much is working - but hey, we have pick 4 in the mid season draft! I hope we don't pick that 'from the clouds' Sandy long term prospect - at least I'll be interested in footy during the week with a high draft pick.

Post of the day on the Autopsy Thread.

Prior to the injuries piling up at the start of the season I had a really positive outlook for the year ahead. Now I share your pessimism and cant see us turning this around this season. Perhaps the break might give the coaches some clean air to make the changes required, otherwise we are in for a very long season.

 

[Teflon]

Having followed the Saints for 50 plus years and seen it all over and over again, I find some of the commentary about our club both naive and laughable.

Since our solitary flag under Alan Jeans every coach we've had has got the arse and never coached again. Everyone that is, except for Lyon. He was smart enough to jump ship before getting the sack, not like all the other suckers. (I'm not counting Ratten's winless stint as North's caretaker coach).

What does that tell you? Quite simply that St.Kilda is a coach killer. An end of career appointment. Then ask yourself were the likes of Ratten, Richo, Watters, Thomas, Blight, Watson, Alves, Sheldon etc. etc. all sh.it coaches or just maybe were their playing lists not quite good enough to get the job done? I know which I believe.

If you want to blame all the coaches for our perennial malaise then it doesn't say much for those who chose them. Must be crap judges.

I suspect eventually Lyon will get the same treatment this time around. Even if he jumps ship again this will be his last gig.

Would we be any better off with a new-breed coach rather than Lyon? Probably better to watch but you're kidding yourself if you think anyone else would have our current list in finals contention. Just have a look at Clarkson, the wonder coach, and North. How's that going?

All I'm saying is to focus on the real issue. The coach might be part of the problem but history tells me where the Saints are concerned there's a common denominator for our recurring failure.
The players.

Superb post
And no more quick fixes - do it right
I’m not interested in 1 flag
A sustained run of success would be nice

 

[Teflon]

Clarkson is an interesting comparison as an older coach who was a feel good appointment with very little vetting or consideration for if the current game and communicating with young players might be past him.

I’m sure that’s not what you meant but it’s an interesting thought.

Honestly the “believe in RTB” crew are boring.

No he’s not getting sacked soon, yes he might be the best experienced coach available, he might even be the best option for us right now but why does any of that mean he’s infallible and above criticism?

If he’s as good as you all think then all the shit we say about him he will already know and be working to fix.

I hope he does and proves me wrong (or proves me right but fixes it) but the blind defence is ridiculous.

I don’t think I’ve read anything suggesting Lyon should be immune to criticism
Some balance in that criticism from time to time would be nice though
What gets boring is the incessant “Lyons game plan is why we are bad..” that gets old
I’m not into letting players off the hook
We do it well at Saints

 

[phantom13]

But again I don’t agree Lyons saying to them “hey guys can we kick 7 goals this week”
The team has tried to go fast - they f k it up with comedy like errors …I mean just watching today showed that …check the turnover difference…that’s not coaching
Even batty ole Tim Watson noted today when Steele wins a clearance…and fails to kick the ball to our players out side advantage…so we win clearance …lost next posession
Melb just don’t do that
Their handballs aren’t at your feet
Or they don’t hand off to a player …with an opponent standing behind them …
Ross isn’t blameless ….but let’s not pretend he’s coaching that crsp
That’s on un skilled AFL players

I’ve never said it’s all Ross fault. I would note the handball shithousery does appear to be coach instruction though. We give EVERY handball available even if it’s not to anyone advantage.