Autopsy Round 11, 2024: Melbourne v St.Kilda

[Ilovewindy]

Bit of a funny one, but I'm fairly new on here and have no ****en idea what GOP stands for and its killing me hahah

 

[Teflon]

He's making excuses that don't stack up.

I didn’t get that at all?
Midfield- still work in progress
Ball use /turnovers killed us
Even noted his comments thats it’s easy to confuse a playing group (was that directed at him/coaches)
I didn’t get confused excuses…that’d be a Brett Ratten presser ..

 

[Saint Watto]

Bit of a funny one, but I'm fairly new on here and have no ****en idea what GOP stands for and its killing me hahah

It's stands for the "Grand Old Party"

Ooppss...that's US politics.

It's Good Ordinary Player.

 

[NoisyMinor]

Bit of a funny one, but I'm fairly new on here and have no ****en idea what GOP stands for and its killing me hahah

'Good, ordinary player'

 

[phantom13]

I don’t think I’ve read anything suggesting Lyon should be immune to criticism
Some balance in that criticism from time to time would be nice though
What gets boring is the incessant “Lyons game plan is why we are bad..” that gets old
I’m not into letting players off the hook
We do it well at Saints

****ing hell you’ve gone on a reply rant here.

Not saying players are blameless in fact I’ve noted many have been varying degrees of shit for quite some time but there are a lot of Ross defenders adamant that he’s not anything to do with the issue.

We’ve got issues all over the place, Ross and his gameplan or lack of ability to stamp out the shit as a coach is absolutely one.

We’re 4th last and on form probably dead last with north. The last month and a bit (north game aside) has been abhorrent.

The issues are everywhere including the coach. Don’t get it twisted, I’m not laying it all at Ross feet but some does sit there and as the main man, whether you like it or not, more generally sits with him than elsewhere.

 

[BrutThough]

We are just so frustrating to watch.

- Ross isnt going anywhere. No need to discuss whether he is or if we should replace him. The entire club - admin, recruiting, medical, the rest of the football department - have all tied themselves to him. We are on this ride for the long haul or at least until Ross wants to get off. Just accept that this is our fortune and all we can do is hope he can find some sort of game style that is bearable to watch.

- Marshall let Gawn get into his head before the ball was even bounced. Never seen him so concerned about his opponent before but he lets that distract him and he stopped playing the ball. No shame losing to Gawn since he's the best of a generation but Marshall would be disappointed in his own performance.

- We know the midfield is bad and Sinclair ends up there out of desperation but he just isnt as damaging as he is at half back. So while it minimally helps the midfield, we lose one of our most damaging and dangerous assets from the backline.

- Congrats to Steele for reaching whipping boy status this season. Windy seems to be tiring. Dow looked better this week and should hopefully be better for the run. Ross has reached the cliff. Crouch cant be fit quick enough.

- We may have still struggled to score but Higgins makes such a difference. Two goals and two goal assists. Hard to imagine how painful that game would have been without him. His suspension was the nail in what was looking like a spluttering season.

- King looks to have the timing in his marking back but the delivery to him is truly woeful. Perfectly summed up by the passage in the 4th where Henry is running forward 50, King has strong lead with 15m on his opponent and running directly in line with Henry but instead Henry decides to spray it towards goal for it to hit the behind post for an OOF. No wonder we can't score when that's the quality of inside 50s we are working with.

- Of the other forwards - Collard wasn't ready and it was obvious in his VFL performance and last week. I get the popular notion when losing is 'play the kids' but having a teenager run around not contributing, not touching it and overawed doesn't help their development. Caminiti's one-on-one work needs serious work and he cant be missing 15m if he wants to play at senior level. Owens wasn't great but just wanted to do the weekly call for him to join the midfield rotation.

- I think the biggest loss to the midfield this year has been Lenny Hayes

Lenny Hayes

Age

44

Ht

186cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

22.5

5star

K

11.5

4star

HB

11.0

5star

M

3.7

4star

T

5.0

5star

CL

5.2

5star

No current season stats available

D

9.2

3star

K

5.0

2star

HB

4.2

4star

M

1.6

2star

T

0.4

3star

. While we have been without Crouch, we use to set up in a way to work with our weaknesses and minimise the damage while this year, we are being exposed on a weekly basis. Promoting BJ to the role with 1 year development experience can't be helping the situation.

- Another hard week to judge the backline. Conceding far too much but it's coming in so quickly that there were also times when there wasn't much they could do. Highlight of the defensive work was Stocker flying for a spoil on Gawn and making sure he got a knee into his ribs. I enjoyed his commitment to make him earn it. Also liked Howard rushing a behind which seems dumb but we too often do dinky handballs under pressure on the goal line that lead to turnover goals (Battle is the worst offender at this) when the option to rush it was right there so I was just happy we seem to finally be learning there.

- On a positive, Wilson is such an impressive player. While he makes mistake, his work ethic afterwards to keep running or fighting for the ball is great. I'm sure we will beat it out of him eventually but it's a joy to watch.


Anyway, thats enough rambling for one game.

 

[BrutThough]

Ross mentioned in his press conference Cordy has tweaked his knee.

Fingers crossed the scan tomorrow doesn't come back with the worst.

 

[saintbill]

If we lose the next 2 weeks we don't have any winnable games until round 19.

We are genuinely staring down the barrel of a 3-14 start.

Pressure on Ross and the club is going to be fever pitch if this happens. If we win 4 or 5 games for they year, Lyon may be cooked for sooner than what we think is possible.

 

[Saint Shags]

Ross isnt going anywhere. No need to discuss whether he is or if we should replace him. The entire club - admin, recruiting, medical, the rest of the football department - have all tied themselves to him. We are on this ride for the long haul or at least until Ross wants to get off. Just accept that this is our fortune and all we can do is hope he can find some sort of game style that is bearable to watch.

He has a year.
If we are still this bad at the halfway point next year. The club will need to let him go. Ross may not get the option. He is no special than any other coach.
And if that were to occur the Pres and Board need to resign as well.

 

[Teflon]

****ing hell you’ve gone on a reply rant here.

Not saying players are blameless in fact I’ve noted many have been varying degrees of shit for quite some time but there are a lot of Ross defenders adamant that he’s not anything to do with the issue.

We’ve got issues all over the place, Ross and his gameplan or lack of ability to stamp out the shit as a coach is absolutely one.

We’re 4th last and on form probably dead last with north. The last month and a bit (north game aside) has been abhorrent.

The issues are everywhere including the coach. Don’t get it twisted, I’m not laying it all at Ross feet but some does sit there and as the main man, whether you like it or not, more generally sits with him than elsewhere.

It’s a conversation bud so calm down. When one posts ..it’s normal another responds ..
Of course Ross has shyte to do - lots of it
I’d argue you or I wouldn’t even know what his game plan is because that Auskicker skill level we saw on display certainly would t be show casing it
That Bonner kick in the guts…the miss from Caminiti..5 meters out to put us within 5pts… WTF?
Anyhoo I’m less worried about game plan and more worried about talent
Last year i thought we over achieved (sides around our level eg Bombers) had down years, we got a softer draw ….i walked out of the Giants final knowing the gap was large …they were playing with us..
I think Lyon and Bassatt would’ve been better just ripping the band air off and saying we need a mini re build before we contend and scrap the dual narrative stuff (I get it…they’re trying to sell hope/menberships). Lyon was asked in todays presser if a few quick tweaks can see us improve dramatically…or be close…his comment that “on today…no” was I think where he really sees the list

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Please please please if we finish in the bottom 4 .... can we please get our 1st round draft pick correct ..... a generation gun mid .... please lord let it be so

 

[Teflon]

If we lose the next 2 weeks we don't have any winnable games until round 19.

We are genuinely staring down the barrel of a 3-14 start.

Pressure on Ross and the club is going to be fever pitch if this happens. If we win 4 or 5 games for the year, Lyon may be cooked for sooner than what we think is possible.

Keep crossing those fingers Bill
Ain’t happening

 

[phantom13]

It’s a conversation bud so calm down. When one posts ..it’s normal another responds ..
Of course Ross has shyte to do - lots of it
I’d argue you or I wouldn’t even know what his game plan is because that Auskicker skill level we saw on display certainly would t be show casing it
That Bonner kick in the guts…the miss from Caminiti..5 meters out to put us within 5pts… WTF?
Anyhoo I’m less worried about game plan and more worried about talent
Last year i thought we over achieved (sides around our level eg Bombers) had down years, we got a softer draw ….i walked out of the Giants final knowing the gap was large …they were playing with us..
I think Lyon and Bassatt would’ve been better just ripping the band air off and saying we need a mini re build before we contend and scrap the dual narrative stuff (I get it…they’re trying to sell hope/menberships). Lyon was asked in todays presser if a few quick tweaks can see us improve dramatically…or be close…his comment that “on today…no” was I think where he really sees the list

Was a lot of replies to me in a row, all good, it was tongue in cheek.
Look broadly I agree but you did note you don’t see anyone saying we can’t criticize Ross, I disagree with that. There are some genuine rusted on types that swear he walks on water. It frustrates me to see “well who is better” because firstly we don’t know and secondly it’s not the point. If we can’t critique and hope they’re doing the same then what hope have we got of improving.

I’d also argue we absolutely can see the gameplan and it’s most pointed in the regression of a lot of our players. When they played with freedom and creativity last year (before the Ross defense first stuff) we saw players looking great. Nas, Sincs even Pou played a lot more on instinct and backed their strengths. All that is gone now. Joeys analysis talked about us being a kick mark and ball retention team, we are and it’s at the cost of quick dynamic ball movement.

This stuffs really obvious and my worry is that it’s gonna kill some of these players longer term.

Now Ross has forgotten more about footy than I’ll ever know so we have to trust that this is a build in progress but it’s getting harder and harder every week for me and others to see where that build is coming from. Even if it’s two steps back for one forward, this gamestyle doesn’t win modern footy games, the last god knows how many flag winners show us that.

Perhaps we over achieved last year but I don’t think the regression was 8-10 ladder spots and potentially 9 wins worth.

We’ve gone backwards in a stack of areas, the hope we all have is that we’ve done it for a reason.

 

[Saint Shags]

We know the midfield is bad and Sinclair ends up there out of desperation but he just isnt as damaging as he is at half back. So while it minimally helps the midfield, we lose one of our most damaging and dangerous assets from the backline.

Funnily enough I think the loss of Gresh has hurt us more than we realised. Yes his disposal was crap but when he was in the middle he provided something different.
Problem was we never went for the replacement.

Of the other forwards - Collard wasn't ready and it was obvious in his VFL performance and last week. I get the popular notion when losing is 'play the kids' but having a teenager run around not contributing, not touching it and overawed doesn't help their development. Caminiti's one-on-one work needs serious work and he cant be missing 15m if he wants to play at senior level. Owens wasn't great but just wanted to do the weekly call for him to join the midfield rotation.

I'm all for playing the kids.
But.
And this comes to selection integrity. I would have rathered the likes of Garcia and Hastie more time. They have shown more at both VFL and AFL level. We do Collard no favours.

I think the biggest loss to the midfield this year has been Lenny Hayes . While we have been without Crouch, we use to set up in a way to work with our weaknesses and minimise the damage while this year, we are being exposed on a weekly basis. Promoting BJ to the role with 1 year development experience can't be helping the situation.

And this is on the choices made by the club.
We've ended up having a department run by yes men. What I would give to have kept Walsh on as Football Director. We needed someone to actually ask the questions as to is it the right choice. Instead we've placed guys that have worked under Ross into important positions.
How in the world we gave BJ the role boggles the mind. And the fact that it was ticked off is ridiculous.

 

[Sully111]

I didn’t get that at all?
Midfield- still work in progress
Ball use /turnovers killed us
Even noted his comments thats it’s easy to confuse a playing group (was that directed at him/coaches)
I didn’t get confused excuses…that’d be a Brett Ratten presser ..

Talked up last year's performance.

When it was brought up we had a similar list this year, used crouch and butler as excuses.

He deflects.

Kept going on with his latest prosecute catch phrase.

Said were not known for poor execution.... bullish*t.

He's lost.

 

[luca77]

It's stands for the "Grand Old Party"

Ooppss...that's US politics.

It's Good Ordinary Player.

Until Grandson of Plugger comes along at least.

 

[Sir Owens]

Didn't watch the game as I'm over in the US.

When I checked the results and saw we got flogged, Steele, Sinclair & Nas had 30, and King kicked 3, it was a stark reminder of how far off we are.

When you look at the ladder, I think it's a fair representation of where our list is at. Whether you're a Ross fan or not, we don't have enough talent on the list. It's as simple as that.

On a positive note, Henry and Wilson, by all reports, played ok. We need to keep unearthing players like that going forward.

 

[phantom13]

Talked up last year's performance.

When it was brought up we had a similar list this year, used crouch and butler as excuses.

He deflects.

Kept going on with his latest prosecute catch phrase.

Said were not known for poor execution.... bullish*t.

He's lost.

Yeh I’ve always found Ross pressers to be all about him showing how clever and funny and witty he is.

I also don’t really expect him to lay bare the issues in that setting, that’s shit for the coaching team to work out behind closed doors.

My issue with his stuff this season is that it all seems to be light, fluffy, everyone’s having a good time and none of it really matters.

 

[Teflon]

Was a lot of replies to me in a row, all good, it was tongue in cheek.
Look broadly I agree but you did note you don’t see anyone saying we can’t criticize Ross, I disagree with that. There are some genuine rusted on types that swear he walks on water. It frustrates me to see “well who is better” because firstly we don’t know and secondly it’s not the point. If we can’t critique and hope they’re doing the same then what hope have we got of improving.

I’d also argue we absolutely can see the gameplan and it’s most pointed in the regression of a lot of our players. When they played with freedom and creativity last year (before the Ross defense first stuff) we saw players looking great. Nas, Sincs even Pou played a lot more on instinct and backed their strengths. All that is gone now. Joeys analysis talked about us being a kick mark and ball retention team, we are and it’s at the cost of quick dynamic ball movement.

This stuffs really obvious and my worry is that it’s gonna kill some of these players longer term.

Now Ross has forgotten more about footy than I’ll ever know so we have to trust that this is a build in progress but it’s getting harder and harder every week for me and others to see where that build is coming from. Even if it’s two steps back for one forward, this gamestyle doesn’t win modern footy games, the last god knows how many flag winners show us that.

Perhaps we over achieved last year but I don’t think the regression was 8-10 ladder spots and potentially 9 wins worth.

We’ve gone backwards in a stack of areas, the hope we all have is that we’ve done it for a reason.

Truth is I had us 7-12 type team
I think this year we have seen some considerable drop off especially in senior players but sone understandable
I don’t think Sincs has been anywhere near his best , Butler out, Higgins copping 3 weeks suspension, Jimmy 7 even Wilkie I’d argue has been ok but..Wood??
It’s not excuses but I genuinely feel there’s been little in the way of consistency this season …and I haven’t mentioned Crouch or Clark (yet to play)
We simply don’t have the quality and depth to deal with that. So the drop is large ….but the reasons are there
I saw passages of play today that I thought…that looked good …was that Lyons game plan? I’ll have to agree to disagree cause I truly don’t think we know
I did like what I saw against Pies and Bombers and then last half against Giants..but nothing 4 quarters yet
Again agree to disagree re Joey as he wasnt highlighting us as a retention side - we move it quite well from D50 …that was his point …we are just shyte after that
My hope now is we re-build right - no more short cuts and cut sone senior plodders it’s time and I’m praying we can squeeze this in during a narrow window before Tassie ….gonna be hard

 

[Teflon]

Talked up last year's performance.

When it was brought up we had a similar list this year, used crouch and butler as excuses.

He deflects.

Kept going on with his latest prosecute catch phrase.

Said were not known for poor execution.... bullish*t.

He's lost.

The journo (who doesn’t know his shyte) said we had the same side as last year ….Lyon pointed out there were 8 different to last time we played Dees and Crouch and Butler are important..,,that’s not lost it’s the truth ??
Anyway.

 

[saintvic]

I think a lot of our problem is the game plan.
I just don’t think it’s tailored to suit our players strengths.
A good coach knows how to get the best out of their players and I just don’t think that’s happening.
I don’t think our players are as bad as they look at the moment, we have seen last year that they have the skills to get to finals.

Also I went to a sportsman’s night last week and Sinclair was the guest, he mentioned that he’s playing with plantar fasciitis in both feet, so that could explain why he’s not quite at last years form.

 

[PJays]

Here's a very basic explanation for why St Kilda has gone from top 8 to bottom 4.

This isn't the whole explanation but I'm sure it's part of it.

Last year we played 4 or 5 kids a game and this year it's 7 or 8.

By "kid" I mean 21/22 or under and ~50 games or less

And the senior players that have gone are the ones who were good at things we're bad at this year

Crouch- winning the ball in the midfield

Gresham- dangerous half forward, creating solid entries, kicks a few goals

Butler- forward pressure, keeps the opposition from setting up well and getting clean exits from our 50. Kicks a few goals.

Crouch and Butler played every game last year. Gresham missed one.

None of them are superstars, but they're solid AFL players with 150-200 games experience, and when they've been replaced by raw kids like Collard/Hastie/Garcia or Henry, it makes a big difference

Combine that with Mason Wood

32

Mason Wood

Age

30

Ht

192cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.2

3star

K

7.8

3star

HB

5.4

4star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.2

4star

CL

0.3

2star

D

8.3

2star

K

2.7

1star

HB

5.7

3star

M

1.7

2star

T

1.3

2star

CL

0.0

1star

D

15.8

4star

K

8.6

4star

HB

7.2

5star

M

4.6

5star

T

2.6

4star

CL

0.6

3star

and Owens not being the same players they were last year, and it's not surprising we're struggling

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Individually, there were some real disappointing efforts today.

- Bonner, he is good for half a dozen absolutely diabolical turnovers a game. I get the feeling we will persist but he doesn't provide us with anything that Arie or Hastie couldn't at half back.

- King, that effort in the middle of the ground with deplorable. First of all didn't bother making a contest then gave away 50 with lazy football. He did a few ok things, but he and Caminiti allowed May (and Tomlinson) to dominate us. King isn't a monster, but he plays bruise free footy nonetheless and his lack of intensity and drive out there is telling.

- Caminiti, the kid is a very (mentally) immature footballer, very frustrating to watch. Tries to make contests and contribute, but has a LOT to learn.

- Owens, Mitchito seems to be immune to criticism of his game. He's been ok in the past few weeks, for example his kicking for goal has shown massive improvements. To me, he needs to impact more - he's no longer a teenager and I think we give him too much grace because he's explosive. If he has another couple of quiet weeks, I want him to follow Pou's path to develop in the seconds.

- Collard may have been poor, but when he is lining up on Tomlinson (or whichever other tall defender it was) and getting into dangerous spots - delivery in the form of a slow kick to the top of his head isn't the smartest play.

- Ro had an uncharacteristically poor game today around the ground, regardless of that he needs to figure out how to nullify a good tap ruckman.

- Sinclair, he is half the player he was last year. He isn't playing poorly, but he is playing like a GOP. Certainly not the AA half back we had last year, he's gone back to the nearly player he was before his move to the backline.

- Steele, since he hurt his knee he has been angry. He looks so frustrated out there. That play in the middle where he just gave up, walked off the ground and yelled at the bench was such a bad look for a captain and completely unexpected. He is carrying a poor midfield and the frustration is showing - he almost looks disillusioned at this point.

- Dow, working his way into it, expectations may need to be lowered a bit but he was far from embarrassed out there. Tough to expect him to come in and be our midfield saviour.

This handball/chipping game we are playing is disgusting, it simply does not work with the pressure the oppo puts on us. We just don't have the skills (under pressure) and smarts to pull it off.

There was a passage of play today where we chipped it around for a bit on the hbf, only to dump kick it straight to Gawn. Half of the problem is we are so easy to read. There was next to no movement and no hard running - our game plan was telegraphed to the point where it is easy pickings for the intercept in a dangerous position.

I can't actually see us getting out of this rut. It's a pretty pessimistic way to look at things, I'm sure we'll show some form eventually though. So what can i do other than complain?

• Crouch back in asap, will definitely help our midfield
• Forwards like Max need to work on their inside 50s along with the rest of the team
• Sharman as a sub does not work, to me he's a third tall forward good for a couple of goals a game - almost Membreys heir apparent. I would play him there and keep him there, having said that - Tim showed today he is too good for Sandy.
• Bonner out for Arie, the time has come
• Sinclair back to half backline
• Garcia back in, kid has heart and talent - get games into him and look to the future. Sorry Seb, love his endeavour, but it's time to step down.

We are in a world of pain right now, not much is working - but hey, we have pick 4 in the mid season draft! I hope we don't pick that 'from the clouds' Sandy long term prospect - at least I'll be interested in footy during the week with a high draft pick.

I think part of Sinclair's problem is that Bonner is getting some of the ball he would normally have got.
Makes Sinclair's game seem worse, and Bonner can't use it like Sinclair does.

Gawn got into Ro's head. Ro was spooked as hell.

Agree , our sub should be a mid, Garcia should have at least been sub today.

How many defenders do we need in the squad. Bonner out, midfielder in.
Get Crouch in and Sinclair back to his most effective position. We had one player with a lot of meters gained , Nas. Bonner had less than Ross. Sinclair plus Nas, gives us a formidable backline.

Sinclair, fair midfielder, elite hbf. Clark, hbf, failed mid, Jones: hbf, failed mid.



WTF does Lyon not get about rotations. We had 1 mid named on the bench.

Really not seeing what Paddy Dow is bringing to the table that Byrnes can't provide.
Contested possessions ? Clearances ? not seeing them. Spud.

 

[tomjoad]

Should have heard me during the game mate

Bonner's scrub kick... "f'k'n tomjoad!!"

Henry burns everyone and hits the post "damn you tomjoad!!"

etc

That's funny, I was watching the drivel being served up over here, and I thought...I bet feckin' Sully is luuurvin this shite.

 

[Brian Oblivion]

That's funny, I was watching the drivel being served up over here, and I thought...I bet feckin' Sully is luuurvin this shite.

What about this then ? It's as funny, maybe more ? 12 x 5 minute episodes right here. Classic stuff.