Review Round 20, 2017 - Brisbane Lions vs. Western Bulldogs

[fLionHigh]

His disposal is poor but not his biggest concern given he is only getting it 5 or 6 times a game. His ability to impact any contest is almost negligible. The lead up marks on the wing won't compensate for it. And while he is no doubt following orders that tactic is employed because he can offer nothing up forward either by way of a contest or his goal kicking which is shite. It must be confidence. He has the tools. We must be patient but he is not deserving of a senior spot at the moment.

I agree. Haven't seen a 'high profile' player so unprepared for the battle. Maybe golf is his go. Caveat Emptor.

 

[Big Wilbur]

He had some nice moments last night, but Roughead is a Key Defender who has turned into a ruckman out of necessity over the past 2 years. Last week Martin struggled against a retired Full Forward.

Sorry to correct you but it's the reverse. Roughy is a ruckman who only played in defence out of necessity.

He's actually a very good defensive ruckman who is never going to dominate hitouts but is able to nullify the opposition ruckman. Our centre clearance domination was in no small part due to his efforts.

 

[LongLion]

Ghee you lot are so harsh on Shache I'll come back to him first some positives.

Daniel Rich another fantastic game.

Bastinac underrated super consistent since being dropped by Fagan. His disposal has gone from being one of the worst to one of the best. Must've all been between the ears for him big tick to the coaching staff.

Allisons first half was the best we've seen from a first year to date. Faded in the second but my god what a start.

I don't know how shache cops it so hard on this board. He is 19 years old. Just on natural strength you ever had to spar/play footy with or have some sort of physical contest with a teenager even if he's almighty bigger than you? He has so much room to grow, even just the natural strength you gain as your body hardens as you get older. Jesus in an elite sporting environment he's going to be a monster guy in a few years. Give him a break wow you're absolutely daft to have expected anything of him in his first four years.

Kids against men right now. Yes a lot of them are doing great but give em a chance to grow into men before we start putting the bullet through them.

Agree with you re Shache. We shouldn't be too hard on him as he is clearly still developing however it is now time for him to go back to the ressies and work on his game and strength (off season) and give someone like Closey a shot for the rest of the year

 

[bungalow_bill]

His disposal is poor but not his biggest concern given he is only getting it 5 or 6 times a game. His ability to impact any contest is almost negligible. The lead up marks on the wing won't compensate for it. And while he is no doubt following orders that tactic is employed because he can offer nothing up forward either by way of a contest or his goal kicking which is shite. It must be confidence. He has the tools. We must be patient but he is not deserving of a senior spot at the moment.

Has to be confidence ,as we know he was a super reliable shot for goal as a junior

 

[Forward We Go]

Ghee you lot are so harsh on Shache I'll come back to him first some positives.

Daniel Rich another fantastic game.

Bastinac underrated super consistent since being dropped by Fagan. His disposal has gone from being one of the worst to one of the best. Must've all been between the ears for him big tick to the coaching staff.

Allisons first half was the best we've seen from a first year to date. Faded in the second but my god what a start.

I don't know how shache cops it so hard on this board. He is 19 years old. Just on natural strength you ever had to spar/play footy with or have some sort of physical contest with a teenager even if he's almighty bigger than you? He has so much room to grow, even just the natural strength you gain as your body hardens as you get older. Jesus in an elite sporting environment he's going to be a monster guy in a few years. Give him a break wow you're absolutely daft to have expected anything of him in his first four years.

Kids against men right now. Yes a lot of them are doing great but give em a chance to grow into men before we start putting the bullet through them.

Agree 100% about Schache. Some of our posters are really really good at slamming our players when they don't meet everyones expectations at their timeline. Schache is still a kid that's learning the trade along with Hippy. Schache is a player of the future but to be a player of the future, you need to get experience & learn from that experience. Thats how young players get better. A lot of posters make comment about Hippy having a shocker against the bulldogs but I think he had a good game. Sure he didn't kick a "Buddy Goal" & dropped 2 marks he should have taken at pretty important times but he was involved in 5 goal assists & did some really good things. Also had the most possessions in a game this year. What do we expect him to do? Win the game on his own? Don't understand why we expect so much of our 1st, 2nd 3rd year players....especially when they are still teenagers.

 

[Dalions]

Has to be confidence ,as we know he was a super reliable shot for goal as a junior

1 thing that i have noticed progressively getting worse is that he is now taking a couple of steps out to the left before kicking his set shots.
During the junior years when he was kicking so accurately he was running directly to goal and kicking a straight line through the ball.
It is probably a confidence thing but he probably needs to have a look at it.
He made a note of it himself during a draft interview that he kicks the ball best when running straight to goal.

 

[Dalions]

Agree 100% about Schache. Some of our posters are really really good at slamming our players when they don't meet everyones expectations at their timeline. Schache is still a kid that's learning the trade along with Hippy. Schache is a player of the future but to be a player of the future, you need to get experience & learn from that experience. Thats how young players get better. A lot of posters make comment about Hippy having a shocker against the bulldogs but I think he had a good game. Sure he didn't kick a "Buddy Goal" & dropped 2 marks he should have taken at pretty important times but he was involved in 5 goal assists & did some really good things. Also had the most possessions in a game this year. What do we expect him to do? Win the game on his own? Don't understand why we expect so much of our 1st, 2nd 3rd year players....especially when they are still teenagers.

I completely agree with everything you have said, but i do feel that if you asked him directly i think he would agree that he didnt have the best game.

 

[BRAB]

He is 19 years old. Just on natural strength you ever had to spar/play footy with or have some sort of physical contest with a teenager even if he's almighty bigger than you? He has so much room to grow, even just the natural strength you gain as your body hardens as you get older. Jesus in an elite sporting environment he's going to be a monster guy in a few years. Give him a break wow you're absolutely daft to have expected anything of him in his first four years.

I can use these excuses for hammelmann as well. Should we expect Hammer to be a gun?

He has regressed from his performances last year. Age doesn't explain that, size doesn't explain that.

People aren't angry that he's not playing like Tom Lynch in his second year, they're concerned because of his massive regression from last year. His physical limitations, if anything, would be less deleterious to his performance this year than last, and yet his performances this year have been woefully under par if you use last year as a baseline.

I suspect he'll be dropped for the rest of the year and told to wipe this year from memory, absolutely nothing worthwhile has come out of it for him.

Hopefully in his 3rd year we start to see games that match or exceed those in his 1st.

 

[James North]

I don't know how shache cops it so hard on this board. He is 19 years old. Just on natural strength you ever had to spar/play footy with or have some sort of physical contest with a teenager even if he's almighty bigger than you? He has so much room to grow, even just the natural strength you gain as your body hardens as you get older. Jesus in an elite sporting environment he's going to be a monster guy in a few years. Give him a break wow you're absolutely daft to have expected anything of him in his first four years.

Desire and confidence are the things that concern me - not strength.

Skinner and Schache are similar sizes and weights (in fact Schache is taller), but the way Skinner attacks the ball and tackles is much more impressive (especially considering he's coming off the back of two ACLs). Not just going off his one AFL game - off the NEAFL stuff too ... it's just how he plays.

 

[winged1]

1 thing that i have noticed progressively getting worse is that he is now taking a couple of steps out to the left before kicking his set shots.
During the junior years when he was kicking so accurately he was running directly to goal and kicking a straight line through the ball.
It is probably a confidence thing but he probably needs to have a look at it.
He made a note of it himself during a draft interview that he kicks the ball best when running straight to goal.

Which may mean he is hitting the instep a lot and trying, subconsciously, to allow for it.

Who is the goal kicking coach. I am blaming Hudson.

 

[scott_the_man]

Yeah Schache is still young and developing and whatnot, but that is no excuse for his abysmal attack on the footy. Young players still need to put their body into the contest and throw their weight around, especially a big guy like Schache. Just take a look at Skinner in his first game last week, Schache needs to play with a bit more aggresion like that. Jarrod Berry and Hipwood are also good examples of young players putting their bodies on the line and attacking the footy at every opportunity. There's a difference between "slamming" a young player and pointing out a glaring defficiency.

 

[winged1]

Yeah Schache is still young and developing and whatnot, but that is no excuse for his abysmal attack on the footy. Young players still need to put their body into the contest and throw their weight around, especially a big guy like Schache. Just take a look at Skinner in his first game last week, Schache needs to play with a bit more aggresion like that. Jarrod Berry and Hipwood are also good examples of young players putting their bodies on the line and attacking the footy at every opportunity. There's a difference between "slamming" a young player and pointing out a glaring defficiency.

He was definitely soft at a few contests, the more concerning thing was how easily he was pushed out of the way.

We get Skinner in with Berry, Hipwood, Robertson get Robinson back, Harzy comes in. We start to have a little bit of menace again.

 

[Gibbo_88]

Yeah Schache is still young and developing and whatnot, but that is no excuse for his abysmal attack on the footy. Young players still need to put their body into the contest and throw their weight around, especially a big guy like Schache. Just take a look at Skinner in his first game last week, Schache needs to play with a bit more aggresion like that. Jarrod Berry and Hipwood are also good examples of young players putting their bodies on the line and attacking the footy at every opportunity. There's a difference between "slamming" a young player and pointing out a glaring defficiency.

Yeah, pretty much my thoughts. Should we not talk about the weakness of our weakest key position player? Any of our players would be criticised if they don't attack the footy with 100% and look for frees the way Schache has in recent weeks. Doesn't matter what draft pick you were or how many years experience you have.

Don't think Hipwood was really criticised much for his game on here either? Seems to me that most think it's a game he should just forget and move on from.

 

[WheildonTheAxe]

Young power forwards that get selected with very high draft picks get a lot of premature scrutiny. And it's harder because Hipwood freaky skills make Josh's progress look less advanced. It takes years for most key forwards to make their mark (literally and figuratively).

Now that the contract is dusted and time is not an issue, we need to setup Josh's apprenticeship properly so he can succeed. That means in the gym, in the classroom and probably in the reserves. We have the list depth that we didn't last year.

I'd like to see Close given his spot for the last three games. Give Michael a real crack at it so both parties can make the right call at the end of the year. If he could get that tank going and play a similar role to Walker on the weekend, we'd have two lead up forwards that can link us out defence and allow us reset our forward line properly. Delicious.

 

[Dalions]

Which may mean he is hitting the instep a lot and trying, subconsciously, to allow for it.

Who is the goal kicking coach. I am blaming Hudson.

He is pulling a lot of them to the right, which is common when kicking this way. For some it is natural ala buddy, hippy. Not for him.

 

[Kevvo]

Just watched the game and my comments:
Taylor is one of our most important players now. Fantastic disposal, creative and a good link up role.
Umps were s**t, not giving us frees for one thing but giving them to the Bulldogs
Allison and his lonk kicking will help us immensly, just needs to work on his short kicking.
Martin was fantastic in the ruck, giving it to our players throats.
Walker adds a lot to our team with his marking on bail out kicks. 1 stupid error tho with that missed goal.
Don't feel like this is the gameplan to win premierships imo. We should learn how to defend 1st and how to do defensive running. Much easier to learn offensive running than defensive.
I don't think Hippy should have been rested, was great before the rest and now looks out of touch.
McCluggage's disposal isn't great and he is pretty selfish around goals. Will be a good player but needs to be a team player.
Schache needs to go to the reserves for the remained of the season, no confidence and not impacting enough
Our disposal is wierd. When we are going, it is awesome but often it is ugly.
Berry will be a superstar
Young kids did fantastic and so did Zorko

I don't think it's as simple as McCluggage being selfish around goal.

Earlier in the season he looked reluctant to take shots himself in the search for a perfect option and was handballing it on unnecessarily which put teammates under pressure. I reckon he was told to take the simple option (not look for the perfect one) which has led to him going for a goal a couple of times when he might've done better by looking for a teammate.

Still, I agree that it's an area for improvement. His disposal more generally is pretty good I think. He has great kicking vision when he doesn't overthink it. I reckon you're not giving him enough credit.

 

[Forward We Go]

Yeah, pretty much my thoughts. Should we not talk about the weakness of our weakest key position player? Any of our players would be criticised if they don't attack the footy with 100% and look for frees the way Schache has in recent weeks. Doesn't matter what draft pick you were or how many years experience you have.

Don't think Hipwood was really criticised much for his game on here either? Seems to me that most think it's a game he should just forget and move on from.

On the contrary, every game provides each young player the opportunity to learn something and understand much more than an older player. IMO both players learn significantly more each game they play and will hopefully improve from the experience. Schache obviously had some issues during the game but he wasn't on his own. Some of the players who struggled are much older & experienced than he as well.
On the contrary again, I believe (second hand but reliable source) that Fagan thought Hippy game was excellent & was generally pleased with his effort. (with the exception of a couple of fumbles I expect) Really important he learns more from that experience rather than forget the game IMO. Experience is invaluable providing they learn from each one. (be it good &/or bad)

 

[Caiphus]

Schache has regressed this year, but it's not unusual for draftees to be poorer in their second season. Everyone seems to want to make a definitive early call on his prospects and gear up an "I told you so" for internet points down the track. He had a bad game this week after a 6 day turn around coming back from WA. I thought he was pretty good against West Coast so I'm not ready to draw and quarter him yet. We can't expect consistency from a 19-20-year-old key forward, we are just spoiled with Hipwood being such a precocious talent that he can seriously impact the game with 6 or 7 touches. I can still see Josh getting to the point where he is averaging 7+ marks a game and getting four shots on goal, and he is only ever going to get better at the contested stuff. Usually it's the last thing you expect to come in for a young key forward, and he already covers the ground pretty well and draws defenders so the others can capitalise.

I thought Hipwood did have a good game, but he stuffed up enough that I can't say he had an exceptional one.

 

[Kevvo]

Schache has regressed this year, but it's not unusual for draftees to be poorer in their second season. Everyone seems to want to make a definitive early call on his prospects and gear up an "I told you so" for internet points down the track. He had a bad game this week after a 6 day turn around coming back from WA. I thought he was pretty good against West Coast so I'm not ready to draw and quarter him yet. We can't expect consistency from a 19-20-year-old key forward, we are just spoiled with Hipwood being such a precocious talent that he can seriously impact the game with 6 or 7 touches. I can still see Josh getting to the point where he is averaging 7+ marks a game and getting four shots on goal, and he is only ever going to get better at the contested stuff. Usually it's the last thing you expect to come in for a young key forward, and he already covers the ground pretty well and draws defenders so the others can capitalise.

I thought Hipwood did have a good game, but he stuffed up enough that I can't say he had an exceptional one.

I completely agree.

It's also worth remembering that Sam Mayes spent years looking tentative around contests but he has gradually matured into a smart player who knows when to commit and doesn't shirk physicality when it is necessary. In some respects, I think Schache and Mayes feel like similar-ish characters: gentler natured guys to whom on-field physicality doesn't come as naturally as it does to the likes of Hipwood or Mathieson. It's something he'll have to work through, but by reputation (according to Fagan at least) he is a very hard worker.

It's probably fair enough to argue that he should lose his place on form, but let's hold off on the strong conclusions.

 

[Billy Puller]

I can use these excuses for hammelmann as well. Should we expect Hammer to be a gun?

He has regressed from his performances last year. Age doesn't explain that, size doesn't explain that.

People aren't angry that he's not playing like Tom Lynch in his second year, they're concerned because of his massive regression from last year. His physical limitations, if anything, would be less deleterious to his performance this year than last, and yet his performances this year have been woefully under par if you use last year as a baseline.

I suspect he'll be dropped for the rest of the year and told to wipe this year from memory, absolutely nothing worthwhile has come out of it for him.

Hopefully in his 3rd year we start to see games that match or exceed those in his 1st.

Lewy Taylor regressed considerably in his last couple of years. Look at him now. He still is only a kid

 

[BRAB]

Lewy Taylor regressed considerably in his last couple of years. Look at him now. He still is only a kid

Hammelmann hasn't regressed this year AND he's only a kid. Should we put him on a million a year?

 

[Billy Puller]

I completely agree.

It's also worth remembering that Sam Mayes spent years looking tentative around contests but he has gradually matured into a smart player who knows when to commit and doesn't shirk physicality when it is necessary. In some respects, I think Schache and Mayes feel like similar-ish characters: gentler natured guys to whom on-field physicality doesn't come as naturally as it does to the likes of Hipwood or Mathieson. It's something he'll have to work through, but by reputation (according to Fagan at least) he is a very hard worker.

It's probably fair enough to argue that he should lose his place on form, but let's hold off on the strong conclusions.

Spot on with mayes, more mature body, little older turning into quite a solid performer after significantly going backwards from his first year.

 

[Billy Puller]

Hammelmann hasn't regressed this year AND he's only a kid. Should we put him on a million a year?

i don't know what you're really trying to argue to be honest mate. I haven't seen anyone suggest signing him up for a million dollars?

 

[BRAB]

i don't know what you're really trying to argue to be honest mate. I haven't seen anyone suggest signing him up for a million dollars?

What are you trying to argue when you're saying he's only young?

Are you trying to argue he hasn't been poor this year?

Are you trying to argue that he has shown more than a rookie draft pick (Hammer) this year?

When you're only arguments to Schache potentially showing something in the future are "He's only young" (so was jesse white) then you have to start accepting that the only reason you'd project a future that's full of promise is because Schache was taken high in the draft.

That's essentially his resume right now. Taken high in the draft, only young, seriously regressed in his second year.

 

[Billy Puller]

What are you trying to argue when you're saying he's only young?

Are you trying to argue he hasn't been poor this year?

Are you trying to argue that he has shown more than a rookie draft pick (Hammer) this year?

When you're only arguments to Schache potentially showing something in the future are "He's only young" (so was jesse white) then you have to start accepting that the only reason you'd project a future that's full of promise is because Schache was taken high in the draft.

That's essentially his resume right now. Taken high in the draft, only young, seriously regressed in his second year.

Did Josh run over your dog or something?

This is very full on