Autopsy Round 9, 2024: Hawthorn v St.Kilda

[Yawkey way]

That was Richo's downfall too. Bevo is the opposite where he's a player empowerment coach. It doesn't always work but at least when they get it right it's fun to watch. I can't even say watching our wins has been enjoyable under Lyon. Usually it's just a painful grind and then fall over the line under pressure. No pretty skills, no exciting piling on of goals etc.

I was a fan of Lyon back because we were on a road to nowhere, now we are on a path but it looks like a ticket on a bus to Gaza.

I don’t know what all the carry on is about, so what we lost an ugly game in Tassie to the hawks who had no trouble beating the bulldogs. We over achieved last year after getting off to a fast start and this year we’ve played a lot of kids and lost a lot of close games. Is that under achieving or have we just taken a step back so we can actually move forward in a meaningful way.

I’d argue it’s the later, we’ve blooded player, moved on from a few who weren’t taking us anywhere, cleared cap space and remained competitive. We were well and truly told this was going to be the case so again I’m not sure why everyone is so upset. We could have done a tigers and kept ourselves just outside the 8 but nether contending or we could choose do take the path we have.

Time for a little belief, this team isn’t the finished product not even close so let’s just sit back and see how the offseason unfolds. We will have some great draft picks and a bag of cash. If we’re in the 8 when Tassie enter and with a good list profile then imo that’s a great spot to be in. If we’re not then that’s the time to burn the place down, playing for today with no eye on tomorrow will just get us another decade of what we’ve been watching.

I’d argue a fit crouch and Dow with a bit of luck and we’d be six wins or better, add a bit of luck and maybe even better than that.

Just on yesterday’s game, the obvious change to holding the ball played straight into the hawks hands. It was almost impossible to get any flow into the game it looked like rugby at times.

 

[Cairnsman]

King was potentially never a star.

Really?

At what point did we have this realisation?

Was it before we wasted a DP4 selection on him in the national draft.

Or was it some point after that?

For me the realisation was last week, and yesterday that realisation was validate.

Still hoping he can become a serviceable player in a different position like the Ruck or CHB, he's not working in the forward line so time to try something different.

 

[gringo2011]

Some folks just don't tune in to the club's vibe and instead push their own agendas. The club has been straight up about how we were fooling ourselves under Ratten and were further from our goals than we realized. Ross came in to rebuild, and we've made the most of our draft picks in both drafts since Ratten.

The club keeps saying we need more talent, like, they've been saying it on repeat. But some fans thought we'd magically be top 4. If you actually listen, the club's been pretty consistent in their message.

Rattan was getting as much out of us as Lyon. Lyon has had anything he could dream of. Lyon has better youth to work with. Both fell over when injury hit.

No shit we need more talent. I have been saying it for 15 years. I was wrong about Ratts, he was getting the most out of a pretty ordinary list.

In 2024 our best players are Wilkie- an undersized KPF with a huge heart, Hill- a hard running 30 year old who hates to tackle but gets all over the field, Steele pretty much an Olly Wines level player, Marshall who is like Tim English, Nas who isn't as good as last year but still very good and Sinclair who is about at 75% of what he was last year. Misses kicks and handball that he'd hit last year but getting better.

Then a drop down to maybe Battle, Stocker, Howard and Bonner.

Go and compare that to the Bulldogs, Port, Suns even Adelaide. If the kids don't come on this time we are royally ****ed because every bit of hope we have is on Wilson, Owens, Windhager, Phillipou etc. If they end up being another Coffield, Clark type of disappointment we are 10 years off.

 

[gringo2011]

I don’t know what all the carry on is about, so what we lost an ugly game in Tassie to the hawks who had no trouble beating the bulldogs. We over achieved last year after getting off to a fast start and this year we’ve played a lot of kids and lost a lot of close games. Is that under achieving or have we just taken a step back so we can actually move forward in a meaningful way.

I’d argue it’s the later, we’ve blooded player, moved on from a few who weren’t taking us anywhere, cleared cap space and remained competitive. We were well and truly told this was going to be the case so again I’m not sure why everyone is so upset. We could have done a tigers and kept ourselves just outside the 8 but nether contending or we could choose do take the path we have.

Time for a little belief, this team isn’t the finished product not even close so let’s just sit back and see how the offseason unfolds. We will have some great draft picks and a bag of cash. If we’re in the 8 when Tassie enter and with a good list profile then imo that’s a great spot to be in. If we’re not then that’s the time to burn the place down, playing for today with no eye on tomorrow will just get us another decade of what we’ve been watching.

I’d argue a fit crouch and Dow with a bit of luck and we’d be six wins or better, add a bit of luck and maybe even better than that.

Just on yesterday’s game, the obvious change to holding the ball played straight into the hawks hands. It was almost impossible to get any flow into the game it looked like rugby at times.

I'm not seeing it any more. Looks like a repeat of the last 10 years.

 

[Cairnsman]

We over achieved last year

This is what is causing some fans to throw their toys outa the cot today.

I tried stating this over the pre season and the lead up to R1 when agreeing with most neutrals and pundits who predicted we would slide out of the 8 this year, the very suggestion was met with childish petulant abuse and subsequent claims we would improve and be top 4...see where the problem is.

 

[gringo2011]

Disagree on snags

I don't think he gets the credit he deserves here. Actually possesses some footy smarts.

I rate him too but he should be Gary Rohan when he doesn't have the ball. He's still a lazy showboat that pick and chooses when to go.

 

[Yawkey way]

Disagree on snags

I don't think he gets the credit he deserves here. Actually possesses some footy smarts.

He’s a one of one that’s for sure. Quite slow for his size and misses some easy shots but regularly kicks goals and is a strong contested mark who knows how to find the football. It’s easy to overlook what he does well when he shanks one from 20 metres out but that’s football.

 

[Yawkey way]

I'm not seeing it any more. Looks like a repeat of the last 10 years.

Give it time gringo, this year had to happen let’s make the most of it and get a high pick mid.

 

[DougalHoward]

How many of you are going to get down to training and tell Ross your grievances this week

 

[Desperate saint]

I’d rather a clear direction. North is at least clear in what its path is. We’re absolutely not imo. Half in rebuild, half in trying to play finals this year. Usually winds up with a poor outcome.

Do a North you have got to be kidding-i doubt the club would survive

 

[gringo2011]

He’s a one of one that’s for sure. Quite slow for his size and misses some easy shots but regularly kicks goals and is a strong contested mark who knows how to find the football. It’s easy to overlook what he does well when he shanks one from 20 metres out but that’s football.

He'd be fine if he was surrounded by others to do the hard work. He'd be great in a side like Sydney who do a lot of hard work to help their forwards score. We have too many that aren't prepared to work hard.

 

[D2D3]

Exactly, a real ruckman only handballs and only kick when he has to. It’s not like Marshall is a good kick or a good resting forward, his only go is ruck, and all he can do is turning the ball straight over / disguised as a clearance (dump kick to no one)

The only midfields worse on paper than ours off the top of my head is West Coasts and Richmonds. And I’m not even sure theirs is strictly worse. Blaming Marshall, one of our few actually good players, is definitely a take. He’s not a tap ruck the same way Ryder was but that isn’t the only thing that makes a ruckman quality, McEvoy was rather similar in that regard and so is Tim English.

As for dump kicks, half our side does it and has for a long time. It is either a leftover from doing it for so long or Ross still actively encourages it as part of our game plan as well. Which wouldn’t shock me thinking back to past Ross teams.

 

[pebblesofsand]

I don’t know what all the carry on is about, so what we lost an ugly game in Tassie to the hawks who had no trouble beating the bulldogs. We over achieved last year after getting off to a fast start and this year we’ve played a lot of kids and lost a lot of close games. Is that under achieving or have we just taken a step back so we can actually move forward in a meaningful way.

I’d argue it’s the later, we’ve blooded player, moved on from a few who weren’t taking us anywhere, cleared cap space and remained competitive. We were well and truly told this was going to be the case so again I’m not sure why everyone is so upset. We could have done a tigers and kept ourselves just outside the 8 but nether contending or we could choose do take the path we have.

Time for a little belief, this team isn’t the finished product not even close so let’s just sit back and see how the offseason unfolds. We will have some great draft picks and a bag of cash. If we’re in the 8 when Tassie enter and with a good list profile then imo that’s a great spot to be in. If we’re not then that’s the time to burn the place down, playing for today with no eye on tomorrow will just get us another decade of what we’ve been watching.

I’d argue a fit crouch and Dow with a bit of luck and we’d be six wins or better, add a bit of luck and maybe even better than that.

Just on yesterday’s game, the obvious change to holding the ball played straight into the hawks hands. It was almost impossible to get any flow into the game it looked like rugby at times.

The only problem with this is that when we got our fast start last year we were probably playing more "kids" than we are this year.

The difference I see this year is a lack of attacking flair. The lack of run out of defence in the first half yesterday was appalling and then after half time it looked completely different

I'm beginning to think that early last year the instructions were to "just play" but this year there are instructions, instructions, instructions and they are all about "doing this, doing that".

And when we get to 1/2 time, 3/4 time and we've kicked 4 goals - the instructions then become - "just play!!"

 

[sauce_head]

Check it out everybody - the sun has come up this morning after all!

Happy Mother’s Day all. Now go cook some eggs.

 

[gringo2011]

Do a North you have got to be kidding-i doubt the club would survive

They have finally amassed some high end kids that look like they should be elite and should be able to jump hard at some point. The danger for us is that our mediocrity cycle continues until Steele, Marshall, Sinclair all retire and we are still middling but then fall off a cliff. Guys like Owens, Windy etc move up and become the middling list talent and we sit in perpetual blandness. Not good enough to win anything but not bad enough to get the top end talent in.

 

[Yawkey way]

I rate him too but he should be Gary Rohan when he doesn't have the ball. He's still a lazy showboat that pick and chooses when to go.

Rohan is 6.2 lightening quick and before injury looked like being a gun mid. Higgins is short and slow, Wilson for example and players like him would simply run past and away from Higgins, he’s a 3 seconds plus guy over 20. His go is using his ability to find the ball and working in close, reading the play to create seperation.

 

[Desperate saint]

Far from our biggest issue at all, but just relly really need to vent about something.

I counted 8 clearances between Marshall and Steele from a stoppage where they turned and kicked the ball directly forward. The ball went low and somewhere between 15 - 30 metres in a straight line towards the goal. Most were inside 50s, but not all.

Hawthorn either marked or picked up the ball from the deck uncontested every time. Every single one. Only 2 or 3 times did I even see a St.Kilda jumper in the tv frame

8 times! What the actual f*ing f**!! And I only started counting in the second quarter (and I am not watching a replay of that game). 8!!

Given how many times Marshall grabs the ball and dump kicks it forward, why is there never a St.Kilda player standing there?? Is the logic to free up space? If so, WHY TF don't we ever man up the Hawthorn player standing alone in that space??

WHAT THE ACTUAL F***???? It makes absolutely zero sense.

Correct what happend to Forwards in front or shoulder to shoulder if we are going to play the dump kick forward 101 also down the line there should alway be one player at the back of the pack and one forward for the spills -so many times saints all flew and Hawthorn ran away with the ground ball

 

[Yawkey way]

The only problem with this is that when we got our fast start last year we were probably playing more "kids" than we are this year.

The difference I see this year is a lack of attacking flair. The lack of run out of defence in the first half yesterday was appalling and then after half time it looked completely different

I'm beginning to think that early last year the instructions were to "just play" but this year there are instructions, instructions, instructions and they are all about "doing this, doing that".

And when we get to 1/2 time, 3/4 time and we've kicked 4 goals - the instructions then become - "just play!!"

I think Sinclair in the middle is a terrible move, he’s so important to our movement out of the defence. I know the team thinks we need him in the middle at present but I think the move is a net loss, we should try someone else in there.

 

[gringo2011]

The only problem with this is that when we got our fast start last year we were probably playing more "kids" than we are this year.

The difference I see this year is a lack of attacking flair. The lack of run out of defence in the first half yesterday was appalling and then after half time it looked completely different

I'm beginning to think that early last year the instructions were to "just play" but this year there are instructions, instructions, instructions and they are all about "doing this, doing that".

And when we get to 1/2 time, 3/4 time and we've kicked 4 goals - the instructions then become - "just play!!"

Injury has exposed us. Crouch was able to step up when Steele was playing injured last year and Gresham was able to rotate on Ballard forward. We replaced Gresham with Henry and he went down and is more outside and Crouch and Dow both went down. Forward line is always missing pieces with King, Snags and Butler all going down injured or suspended and the kids going backwards.

The list is covered with holes and the years of neglecting midfielders and lack of quality small forwards and even then our spine looks average. We had enough quality to hide deficiencies last year. This year we have been exposed for all out past mismanagement of the list.

The worst part is how ugly the footy looks when we aren't winning to me. Lyon is a master at making us competitive with what he has but he's teaching a very negative and ugly brand to the next generation and not winning.

 

[ScrappyDo]

I am now convinced the guy is nothing more than a 'snake oil' salesman who has duped a lot of people across the country. He is just another fraud sucking our club of $$$ and hope.

In what planet did he believe having so many non physical outside running players in one side would work.

Have we ever had a season when so many good players have gone so far backwards in form?

He has the entire club playing bruise free touch football and not only that it is almost unwatchable. Its definitely the worst and most frustrating brand of footy I've seen from our club play in 50 years of supporting them.

I was previously a solid Lyon believer and thought he was the one to lead us to the holy grail. But our football and game style this year has me convinced the guy is just another in the long list of incompetent clowns we have had coaching our club.

He's got another 2.5 years left so for your own sake it's too early for that stuff.

 

[Sully111]

I rate him too but he should be Gary Rohan when he doesn't have the ball. He's still a lazy showboat that pick and chooses when to go.

Again, I disagree

I think he does a lot more than he gets credit for. I've been watching him closely this year. One of my favourite players now.

 

[gringo2011]

I think Sinclair in the middle is a terrible move, he’s so important to our movement out of the defence. I know the team thinks we need him in the middle at present but I think the move is a net loss, we should try someone else in there.

The ball is still moving off HB well. He's just not able to impact like last year. He's had one really good game this year. The rest he looks like a player who missed preseason. I'd persist and patch up HB. Our midfield is so bad it's costing us games.

 

[BigPowerForward]

We are ranked top 4 for stoppage clearances and ranked bottom 4 for centre clearances. It needs to improve, or we are giving our defenders too much to do.
Our scores against are very good but the connection between the midfield and the forwards is where we are falling down constantly. I'm not as pessimistic as some in here. Most markers are pointing in the right direction. It's the consistency of effort, poise with the ball in hand and speed of ball movement that need to improve but that being said, it keeps coming back to the same core issue, we need some "A" grade midfielders

 

[D2D3]

Really?

At what point did we have this realisation?

Was it before we wasted a DP4 selection on him in the national draft.

Or was it some point after that?

For me the realisation was last week, and yesterday that realisation was validate.

Still hoping he can become a serviceable player in a different position like the Ruck or CHB, he's not working in the forward line so time to try something different.

King is looking like less of a consistent elite player like Riewoldt and more of a solid forward with bursts of brilliance like Kosi. Except he can’t ruck or crash a pack.

 

[gringo2011]

Again, I disagree

I think he does a lot more than he gets credit for. I've been watching him closely this year. One of my favourite players now.

I'm one of the few that always stand up for him but he's a limited player. He can chase, he can move fast but he's lazy and inconsistent.