Saturday's Premiership Action

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#26
Originally posted by Shinboners
When it comes to Manchester United, the Liverpool fans stock standard response is to blather on about 18 championships (13 years and counting lads) and 4 European Cups (the last one about 20 years ago).

Living in the past indeed.
All very well said- I celebrate my club's past but I'm fully aware of the sad state of affairs today.

One thing Liverpool supporters fail to realise is that their 18 championships and 4 European Cups does not make them a force in 2003. The trophies won two years ago were trophies that could have been won by ANY side given a chance, and does not make a team world-class.

Sadly, the delusional masses who attatch themselves to LFC fail to see that difference. Sadly, it also means that a lot of the Liverpool fans I've encountered in recent years are some of the most unpleasant people I've had the displeasure of talking to. Which is all too bad on the decent Liverpool fans I've known- the ones who don't relentlessly heckle others because of the club they support or take constant swipes at the opposition. Believe me, because this is EXACTLY what I've encountered on other forums from childish Liverpool fans.

Point is, if they really were so mighty, why would they have to do that? Maybe because they KNOW their record of championship wins could well be surpassed by Arsenal and/or Man United in the near future!
 

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tribey

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#27
Originally posted by David Votoupal
One thing Liverpool supporters fail to realise is that their 18 championships and 4 European Cups does not make them a force in 2003.
Exactly right. I give you:

Nottingham Forest European Cups: 2
Manchester United European Cups: 2

While the size of its trophy cabinet is ultimately how a club's success is judged, when it comes to the here and now what does the above statistic mean when evaluating these two clubs?
 

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#28
Originally posted by David Votoupal

One thing Liverpool supporters fail to realise is that their 18 championships and 4 European Cups does not make them a force in 2003.
2003:

Liverpool 5th
Everton 17th

Originally posted by David Votoupal
The trophies won two years ago were trophies that could have been won by ANY side given a chance, and does not make a team world-class.

You were creaming your tweeds last season when Everton may have possibly been in the position to play in the EUFA Cup. Obviously, "ANY side" does not include Everton.

BTW, any more ideas to ground share with Liverpool because you cannot afford to fund your own stadium.

I can't believe I have bitten (after all this time ignoring Stam). :D
 
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#29
So you may be 5th but how many points are you off the top?!? And furthermore, how much really separates the teams below the top three- everything is relative, you see! ;)

You see, I'm pretty much used to the relentless heckling I get from so many classless, undignified Liverpool supporters. Which really is unnecessary if you really are that great a club- truly great clubs normally don't care about the competition if they're that damn good, and hence won't feel the need to take swipes.

So don't be surprised if I really do have that much of a dislike for Liverpool and many of their supporters, because of the rubbish I've been given on other places. I love my own club first, and I'll only ever stand up for Everton and for myself whenever we have to face this sort of thing. Simple as that.
 

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#30
"In the Red corner, weighing in at 180 pounds (you have put on weight recently Kara :D) Kaaaaaarraaaaaa Niiiiiiiicoooollllaaaaaassss and in the blue corner, weighing in at (I really don't know how much David Votoupal weighs) Voooootoooooopaaaaaaalll"

Everton overachieved last year - Liverpool haven't overachieved since 1989 ;)
 

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#31
Originally posted by Voice of Reason
Spurs also had a magnificent 5-2 victory over a, er, motivated Wolves side. Keane & Kanoute are a dangerous duo up front, we just need to tighten up the middle of the midfield so it's not so easy to "play through" as Mark Lawrenson said the other day. Apparently Dalmat's "icing on the cake" 5th goal is well worth watching tonight.
Yeah twas a great victory against one of the best:rolleyes: OH well a win is a win, now to get something out of the toon game.

Dalmat is brilliant, Pleaty should be shot for not starting him more often.
 

tribey

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#32
Everton have been underachieving since the 80s...
Liverpool haven't been achieving since 1991.

As for my mob... I think I saw an all-time English silverware table posted somewhere recently that showed we're still 7th or 8th on the list despite not winning the league since 1929, the Cup since 1955 and the UEFA (Fairs') Cup since 1969.

All those near misses in the seventies and nineties... :(

Still, onwards and upwards and with our infrastructure and squad I'd say we're amongst the top handful of big clubs today.
 

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#33
Originally posted by dyertribe
Everton have been underachieving since the 80s...
Liverpool haven't been achieving since 1991.
Liverpool had two chances to re-establish their winning ways. The first time was under Evans and the likes of Fowler, McManaman, Redknapp, and co. were established and they were competing against United as the best bunch of kids in England. If Liverpool won a title with that bunch, they probably would have gone on to win more silverware. As it was, it was the Fergie kids who delivered.

The second chance was after Liverpool won the plastic treble. In the same way that the '91 European Cup Winners Cup win had United players believing that they could win the Championship, the Liverpool plastic treble looked like doing the same for the mob from Anfield. They looked like a team that would be hard to beat, but due to a variety of reasons (injuries, Houllier's illness, loss of form), they never took advantage of it.

Everton never recovered from their decline after English clubs were banned from Europe. Without the chance to further enhance their team by testing against the best from Europe, they stagnated and were overtaken by Liverpool and Arsenal. There was never a time in the 90s when Everton were considered Title challengers, and they've since been overtaken by the likes of Chelsea and Newcastle in terms of size and glamour. For Everton to return to their glory days, you would think that they would need a benefactor to stand in and finance them.
 

tribey

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#34
Originally posted by Shinboners
Liverpool had two chances to re-establish their winning ways. The first time was under Evans and the likes of Fowler, McManaman, Redknapp, and co. were established and they were competing against United as the best bunch of kids in England. If Liverpool won a title with that bunch, they probably would have gone on to win more silverware. As it was, it was the Fergie kids who delivered.
Yet they finished behind us twice during the Evans era. :p

Such wonderful attacking flair and promise, yet they replaced him with the boring tactical ****** that is Gerard Houllier...
 
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#36
No doubt Evans made mistakes, but the way he was treated by the club he loved so much was disgraceful. And of course, the Liverpool revisionists will try to blank him out of their memories.

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Everton side of the mid-80s was one of the best club side in Europe and indeed one of the best club sides to have ever won a championship. The way they dominated 1984-85, by beating every other team in the League at least once, saw to that. The fact that we were robbed of a chance of ultimate glory in Europe leaves a bitter taste in the mouths of all Evertonians. We all know that Everton would have won the European Cup, and would have dominated both at home and abroad if it weren't for the evil ferals across the park wrecking havoc on their travels. I wonder if they have any remorse at all?!?

Everton have fallen simply because they are a very poorly managed club and have been for many years. What is needed is someone with vision who can rebuild the club completely from the ground. Our club has potential to recapture past glories and regain its former status and prestige- with the huge supporter base we've got and the fact that (unlike certain clubs) they are almost 100% dedicated supporters, there's no reason why it can't be done.
 

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Shinboners

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#37
Originally posted by David Votoupal
Everton have fallen simply because they are a very poorly managed club and have been for many years. What is needed is someone with vision who can rebuild the club completely from the ground. Our club has potential to recapture past glories and regain its former status and prestige- with the huge supporter base we've got and the fact that (unlike certain clubs) they are almost 100% dedicated supporters, there's no reason why it can't be done.
I'd hate to say it, but it wouldn't surprise me if Everton got relegated and ended up with a long Wolves-style struggle to get back into the top flight.

For Everton to return to their glory days, you need someone who is willing to put money into the club. Quite simply, you don't have the money generating capacity of Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal or Newcastle and you don't have a benefactor like Chelsea.

At best, Everton will end up like Spurs or Villa, a decent sized club, not quite stupid enough to get relegated, not quite smart enough to make the most of what they have and challenge for the Championship.
 
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#38
The thing is, our supporters aren't quite militant enough. I wished we actually had the guts to stand up and let our anger be heard in whatever way possible.

I just wished someone actually did come up with the money to rescue our club, but who? Surely Everton would be an attractive proposition for investors?!? Or maybe they're gonna have to wait until I come up with the cash, why not? :D

Relegation would be a terrible thing for the supporters and for the morale of the city. Just look at some of the areas of Liverpool and you can see why Everton means so much to the fans. For some, it's practically all they have to live and die for.

So now you understand why it hurts so much. It hurts that in my lifetime, the club I love so much fell from a position of pride and prestige. But I don't give a damn what the hecklers and ferals across the park say and do, because I love my club to my dying day and I'm damn proud of being Blue. I get funny looks from some people when I say I support Everton, and that's sad- it only shows how money, marketing, mindshare and media has polluted people's minds when it comes to sport. As if there's no football outside the so-called glamour clubs. Ah well...

One thing we can be proud of is that compared to many successful clubs, Everton have remained comparatively untainted. Unlike clubs which still prosper despite being caught up in match-fixing scandals, whose "fans" have wrecked havoc on many, whose players in some cases behaved appallingly- you never heard of Everton being involved in any of that, don't you? But that's it, sometimes the good guys in sport are the ones that suffer :(
 

tribey

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#39
Originally posted by David Votoupal
The thing is, our supporters aren't quite militant enough. I wished we actually had the guts to stand up and let our anger be heard in whatever way possible.
What has that sort of response done for Villa fans?

We were in a similar position of underachievement and stagnation until the Halls restored our natural place in football's order with their limitless cash. As shinners said... you lot need a similar kickstart.
 

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#41
Originally posted by David Votoupal
The thing is, our supporters aren't quite militant enough. I wished we actually had the guts to stand up and let our anger be heard in whatever way possible.
You should ask Moomba about that. Their fans kicked up a stink about Peter Swales and ended up with Frannie Lee.


I just wished someone actually did come up with the money to rescue our club, but who? Surely Everton would be an attractive proposition for investors?!? Or maybe they're gonna have to wait until I come up with the cash, why not? :D
Liverpool is a much more famous club than Everton, and when you add Manchester United as one of the North-West giants, Everton is well and truly in the shade. It's even fair to say that Manchester City has a higher profile than Everton. So, it's not going to be a good deal for any investor. The best you could hope for is a very rich Evertonian willing to pay up.

If there are any outside investors, they'd be more likely to look at a London club. Apart from getting a better lifestyle in London than Liverpool, there are clubs like West Ham and Spurs which have just as much, if not more, potential than Everton.

- it only shows how money, marketing, mindshare and media has polluted people's minds when it comes to sport. As if there's no football outside the so-called glamour clubs. Ah well...
But it could also be argued that these very same factors were key elements in the revival of clubs like Newcastle, Chelsea, and Manchester City. Southampton and Charlton are financially stable, and the likes of Bolton, Birmingham and Fulham don't look like relegation fodder. Their fans won't be complaining about the new world of soccer.

As you said, Everton have been mismanaged. Other clubs have been able to make the most of the environment that's presented to them.
 

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#42
Originally posted by dyertribe
We were in a similar position of underachievement and stagnation until the Halls restored our natural place in football's order with their limitless cash. As shinners said... you lot need a similar kickstart.
Which reminds me, isn't the family who owns the lottery business in the UK closely linked to Everton and Liverpool?

Whatever happened to the money they used to put into Everton and Liverpool?

Oh, and Newcastle had fallen much further than Everton before their revival happened. They were looking at relegation to Division Two at one stage. Dyertribe could probably give the exact details, but it would have been no more than five seasons between Newcastle looking at Division Two to just failing to win the Premiership.
 

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#43
Originally posted by David Votoupal
Unlike clubs which still prosper despite being caught up in match-fixing scandals, whose "fans" have wrecked havoc on many, whose players in some cases behaved appallingly- you never heard of Everton being involved in any of that, don't you? But that's it, sometimes the good guys in sport are the ones that suffer :(
Awwwwwwwwwwwwww. You really are totally delusional aren't you? How many clubs are there in England again? Everyone of them have been involved in some kind of 'scandal' rigfht ?

But no, like a proudly untouched virgin, the Everton FC remains a shining beacon for all things good, right and proper. Try painting this picture to another crowd, because some of us are not as gullible to believe your pathetic spin-doctoring.

Do you know who Alex Nyarko is?? He may have been crap, but did it warrant the abuse from the crowd, and one spectator who decided to take matters into his own hands?? How about the player who asked to be taken off, with Walter Smith vowing not to pick him again?? So much for being the 'good guys' you rank hypocrite.
 
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#44
Everton fell pretty hard at the start of the 70s and again at the end of the 70s before we picked ourselves back up. After the fabulous 1970 win, our finishes were 14th, 15th and 17th before Catterick was replaced by Billy Bingham. Under Bingham we almost won the championship in '75 but choked in our final few games. But again, we fell away before Gordon Lee took over- we had a very good team under him (Latchford, Lyons, Dobson, King- what a teriffic player King was, not to mention his wonder volley against Liverpool! :D ) but again choked in '78 and '79.

The chokes were probably too much to bear and the team fell away with poor finishes (19th and 15th) before Kendall took over.

We don't need to mention the fact that after returning to the top flight in '54, we also struggled to re-establish ourselves and were mediocre at best. But even that didn't prevent us from winning 5-2 at Old Trafford during 56/57 which ended a long unbeaten home run for the Busby Babes.

So yes, if history is indeed repeating itself then surely it won't be long before we start the climb back?!?
 

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#45
Originally posted by Vieira
"In the Red corner, weighing in at 180 pounds (you have put on weight recently Kara :D) Kaaaaaarraaaaaa Niiiiiiiicoooollllaaaaaassss and in the blue corner, weighing in at (I really don't know how much David Votoupal weighs) Voooootoooooopaaaaaaalll"

Vieira, you not the real one, don't forget these famous words:

HAIR IS POWER
 

tribey

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#48
Originally posted by Shinboners
Oh, and Newcastle had fallen much further than Everton before their revival happened. They were looking at relegation to Division Two at one stage. Dyertribe could probably give the exact details, but it would have been no more than five seasons between Newcastle looking at Division Two to just failing to win the Premiership.
Oh christ yes :(

Hall and Keegan arrived and narrowly saved us from relegation following the dodgy reigns of Jim Smith and Argie Ossie Ardiles in 91/92...

The following season we stormed to the division one championship and in our first year in the Premiership we finished third thanks mainly to Cole's ridiculous haul of 41 goals.

The great choke occurred a further two seasons later in 95/96.
 
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#49
Just looking back at what Shinboners said about Wolves, it's worth noting that Wolves had not only fallen from the top division to bottom in successive seasons- their very existence at one time was threatened. By the end of the 80s they were on their way back.

Middlesbrough, whatever we may think of them, had sunk into the old third division and IIRC were even locked out of their own stadium at one stage, such was the grim situation there. It took a young side under Rioch and Todd to get them back up- one of the key players in that team was Gary Pallister, who moved on to Man United.
 

tribey

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#50
Originally posted by David Votoupal
Middlesbrough, whatever we may think of them, had sunk into the old third division and IIRC were even locked out of their own stadium at one stage, such was the grim situation there.
The finances and the off-field entity of Boro was completely restructured and reformed just weeks before outright closure - hence the 1986 on the crest.
 
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