Shirley is no longer a tagger

[johnnypanther]

While I agree with the arguments of Johnny Panther & relapse above me, I don't think it applies to Shirley at all. You are severely under-rating his game. He's our best tagger. Second, it creates structural problems. If he goes, then that leaves van Berlo as a full-time tagger, which I would argue, would be detrimental to the development of his running & attacking game. We would need to replace Shirley's spot with someone who can win the hard ball and tag. I don't think Douglas or Vince or any young player on our list, supposedly being held back, would fill that role. Also remember that in 2 years time, Shirley will be the elder statesman of our midfield.

i dont disagree that in our current list that Shirley is the best tagger, however, IMO that itself is the problem. To win a premiership i believe that we need an even better tagger.

Furthermore, i think that you have stated the crux of the problem when you say that ..."in 2 years Shirley will be the elder statesman of our midfield":

- Without any disrespect to Shirley (or any AFL listed player - including such illuminaries as David Gallagher, Matthew Smith etc, since any footballer on an AFL list is a good player) but IMO if Shirley is going to be the elder statesman of our midfield then we can forget about winning any premierships
- i rate him as a back-up no 24-28th standard listed player. And i think if we gave him away to another club we would have no takers.
Anyway, i think that this is a wider issue than just about Shirley himself - its more about the quality of our list.

 

[JAYT]

Robert Shirley is untouchable on this board - he even received votes last year after Scott West got 40 touches on him.

In that game I think you will find that Goodwin was his man.

Shirley was tagging Gilbee !!!

On the weekend he had a bad one - but so did a few of his mates.

 

[Redline]

i dont disagree that in our current list that Shirley is the best tagger, however, IMO that itself is the problem. To win a premiership i believe that we need an even better tagger.

Furthermore, i think that you have stated the crux of the problem when you say that ..."in 2 years Shirley will be the elder statesman of our midfield":

- Without any disrespect to Shirley (or any AFL listed player - including such illuminaries as David Gallagher, Matthew Smith etc, since any footballer on an AFL list is a good player) but IMO if Shirley is going to be the elder statesman of our midfield then we can forget about winning any premierships
- i rate him as a back-up no 24-28th standard listed player. And i think if we gave him away to another club we would have no takers.
Anyway, i think that this is a wider issue than just about Shirley himself - its more about the quality of our list.

Spot on

 

[Damp Squarie]

Shirley is much more effective as tagger against Judd. VB should have stood Kerr today. As I said before the game.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7876443&postcount=54

As dyertribe said, his attacking game was still great today.

I also think that Kerr's effectiveness was overstated. Most of his possessions were in the defensive half.

Great points Kung Fu and I agree with all of them.
While we are on the subject of points, isnt that the main reason we lost the game - poor kicking?

Rob Shirley is a good average footballer nothing more.

 

[KUNG FU]

i dont disagree that in our current list that Shirley is the best tagger, however, IMO that itself is the problem. To win a premiership i believe that we need an even better tagger.

Furthermore, i think that you have stated the crux of the problem when you say that ..."in 2 years Shirley will be the elder statesman of our midfield":

- Without any disrespect to Shirley (or any AFL listed player - including such illuminaries as David Gallagher, Matthew Smith etc, since any footballer on an AFL list is a good player) but IMO if Shirley is going to be the elder statesman of our midfield then we can forget about winning any premierships
- i rate him as a back-up no 24-28th standard listed player. And i think if we gave him away to another club we would have no takers.
Anyway, i think that this is a wider issue than just about Shirley himself - its more about the quality of our list.

I don't think the club will realistically be aiming for a premiership after 2008. During that time Shirley's experience will valuable in the development of our upcoming midfield ranks.

I agree that there are problems with list more broadly. Or perhaps, more accurately, our list development in Shirley's generation, hence questions over the next captain.

 

[NikkiNoo]

I don't think the club will realistically be aiming for a premiership after 2008. During that time Shirley's experience will valuable in the development of our upcoming midfield ranks.

Sorry KF but we will aim for finals and a premiership every year under Neil Craig. You have to remember the era that he learnt the most about coaching under - Oatey. Did he ever tank a season? I don't think so, I thought that he went into every season thinking that we are going to try and win this competition. That is the current stupid thinking that the AFL is trying to push with it's equalisation policy.

I agree that there are problems with list more broadly. Or perhaps, more accurately, our list development in Shirley's generation, hence questions over the next captain.

You mean the stand in captain material for a couple of years which could be Goodwin (prior to his stupidity) and even Burton? Or some longer term options in Rutten, Thompson, vB and Knights? For me it's which option do we go for as there are a variety of candidates that I can see in each of those options.

 

[crowsarethebest]

Shirley is a solid player. If we had a premiership team or had some real quality mids, he'd be on the outer though. But at the moment he's doing an ok job and will probably play 200 games for us. We don't have the personel to replace him at the moment.

 

[tribey]

Shirley is a solid player. If we had a premiership team or had some real quality mids, he'd be on the outer though. But at the moment he's doing an ok job and will probably play 200 games for us. We don't have the personel to replace him at the moment.

The only problem with that is, the facts don't actually reflect what you're saying.

Shirley played 48 out of a possible 49 games in 2005 and 2006 when we were arguably the premier side in the comp with names like Ricciuto, Goodwin, Edwards, Burton, Thompson and McLeod in the midfield rotations.

Despite the fact we were for all intents and purposes a 'Premiership team' and we certainly had a fistful of 'real quality mids' he wasn't on the outer or replaceable then was he?

In reality, he was on the front line doing exactly what he's doing now - tagging and winning the hard ball (AFC #3 in 2005, AFC #1 in 2006).

 

[relapse]

The only problem with that is, the facts don't actually reflect what you're saying.

Shirley played 48 out of a possible 49 games in 2005 and 2006 when we were arguably the premier side in the comp with names like Ricciuto, Goodwin, Edwards, Burton, Thompson and McLeod in the midfield rotations.

Despite the fact we were for all intents and purposes a 'Premiership team' and we certainly had a fistful of 'real quality mids' he wasn't on the outer or replaceable then was he?

In reality, he was on the front line doing exactly what he's doing now - tagging and winning the hard ball (AFC #3 in 2005, AFC #1 in 2006).

Lets simplfy it to this.

If Tyson Stenglein was still on our list would you play him before you would play Shirley ???

If your answer is yes then his point IMO is valid

 

[jenny61_99]

And it's all a moot point as Neil Craig clearly loves the lad! We can bitch and complain all we like but in the end, the selection committee knows what they want and expect and one R Shirley apparently is doing all that's asked of him (or he wouldn't keep being selected).

 

[tribey]

Lets simplfy it to this.

If Tyson Stenglein was still on our list would you play him before you would play Shirley ???

If your answer is yes then his point IMO is valid

If we're playing this game fairly, first and foremost if Tyson Stenglein was still on our list we wouldn't have Scott Thompson.

The hypothetical possibilities for the midfield rotations are endless - but given Shirley is our chief hard-ball getter he'd still be in the mix.

What if Ricciuto didn't have parvo and back problems? What if McLeod didn't have a degenerative knee?

Facts and reality > speculation and what ifs. I must say, a lot of the Shirley naysayers are having to draw many a long bow to justify his exclusion - I'm not sure exactly what that says about the true state of play, but it's certainly a common thread.

 

[King Elvis]

A few other players in our side and on our list could learn a hell of a lot from Shirley, not the most talented, but you cannot fault his application, desire and effort.

Always give 110% - shame this year we can't say the same for everyone.

 

[KUNG FU]

Sorry KF but we will aim for finals and a premiership every year under Neil Craig. You have to remember the era that he learnt the most about coaching under - Oatey. Did he ever tank a season? I don't think so, I thought that he went into every season thinking that we are going to try and win this competition. That is the current stupid thinking that the AFL is trying to push with it's equalisation policy.

There's a massive difference between tanking and rebuilding. I think we've been able to balance winning games and developing pretty well over the years, so hopefully we won't have to cut out the dead wood, so to speak, Richmond or Hawthorn style. I think we can manage to stay in the 8 after the fab 5 go (and therefore will be aiming for a premiership), but that will depend a large part on not only leadership, but also in experience that a player like Shirley will provide.

You mean the stand in captain material for a couple of years which could be Goodwin (prior to his stupidity) and even Burton? Or some longer term options in Rutten, Thompson, vB and Knights? For me it's which option do we go for as there are a variety of candidates that I can see in each of those options.

I've said repeatedly, Rutten for captain. He'll be 24/25 next year, so age isn't a concern. He's tough and always puts his body on the line. He's had AA honours and hopefully this year he'll be up for it again. Our defence is one of the best in the game and without him there, it falls apart. He's the most consistent player on the team IMO. I also think its important to have stability in the captaincy. he rarely misses a game and he has a good 7-8 years in him. The only reason people are hesitant to get on the Truck-for-PM wagon is that he's a FB, which I think is kind of silly. Its one of the most selfless positions to play and thats a character trait I'd love the team to have. Also, the modern game has 'leadership groups', so all over the ground we will have leaders as well. but anyways... Getting side-tracked.

Shirley good. The end.