Shooting at a Jewish event in Bondi

[_Mike_]

MOD NOTE: leave the hateful comments out of the thread, this is not the place for it

 

[Frank Bunn]

Yes I disagree that groups like the Samaritans saw themselves as Palestinian.

That's how the Byzantines saw them too, as Samaritans.

I disagree that any groups considered themselves Palestinian up until the end of the Ottoman rule.

They were Ottomans for 400 years.

If you look at old maps there was a geographical area known as Palestine. But the Ottomans never administered it as a distinct jurisdiction. That came in 1920 when the League of Nations declared the British Mandate for Palestine. The boundaries of Palestine were similar to the old maps except anything east of the Jordan river was excluded. This is when Palestinian identity started. Even Jews who lived there thought of themselves as Palestinian.

In the ongoing years British policy was heavily influenced by Zionism. The Arab population of Palestine was denied self-determination while mass migration of Jews was facilitated, and the Jewish community was allowed and encouraged to build strong self-governing institutions.

After WWII the Brits tried to maintain some balance between the Arab and Jewish groups but the empire was broke and unwilling to devote resources. Jewish terrorist groups also targeted British offices such as the King David Hotel bombing which killed 91 people. Menachem Begin was a commander of the Irgun. He founded the Likud party and served as Prime Minister of Israel from 1977–1983.

 

[faible]

And of course people seem to not know or forget that Israel wasn't the only new country that had been formed in that period in history.

Lebanon, Syria, Libya.

Between Britain and France there was a lot of newly recognised states around that time. The issue as usual is that they're often divided up along very arbitrary lines by people with limited interests in those who are already living there.

 

[Bostonian]

If you look at old maps there was a geographical area known as Palestine. But the Ottomans never administered it as a distinct jurisdiction. That came in 1920 when the League of Nations declared the British Mandate for Palestine. The boundaries of Palestine were similar to the old maps except anything east of the Jordan river was excluded. This is when Palestinian identity started. Even Jews who lived there thought of themselves as Palestinian.

In the ongoing years British policy was heavily influenced by Zionism. The Arab population of Palestine was denied self-determination while mass migration of Jews was facilitated, and the Jewish community was allowed and encouraged to build strong self-governing institutions.

After WWII the Brits tried to maintain some balance between the Arab and Jewish groups but the empire was broke and unwilling to devote resources. Jewish terrorist groups also targeted British offices such as the King David Hotel bombing which killed 91 people. Menachem Begin was a commander of the Irgun. He founded the Likud party and served as Prime Minister of Israel from 1977–1983.

The fall of all large empires lead to such rewriting of borders and boundaries and other peoples stepping into power.

The same thing happened with Lebanon to a degree.

It was set up in a way designed to protect the Maronites in the region.

Maybe if they'd set up Israel the same way as they set up Lebanon it might have gone a bit better.

Having a guaranteed position of power for both groups in a shared Government could have avoided all these wars.

 

[Bostonian]

Between Britain and France there was a lot of newly recognised states around that time. The issue as usual is that they're often divided up along very arbitrary lines by people with limited interests in those who are already living there.

Lebanon despite its conflicts was the best model for a power sharing solution.

If the whole region had been joined into one whole new country with enshrined positions of power guaranteed it could have avoided a whole lot of wars.

 

[Jazny]

Between Britain and France there was a lot of newly recognised states around that time. The issue as usual is that they're often divided up along very arbitrary lines by people with limited interests in those who are already living there.

What would have been a better solution than the partition plan?

 

[Bostonian]

What would have been a better solution than the partition plan?

Make the whole region one new country.

Create a constitution that guarantees the Muslims a seat of power at the table.

That would then mean they had to form political parties to represent their people in a Government and vote in actual politicians for that role.

Even now they don't have anything close to a leader for all of them. They are divided among themselves in a power struggle.

The Muslim Arabs get better democratic representation in Israel than they do in Palestine.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Make the whole region one new country.

Create a constitution that guarantees the Muslims a seat of power at the table.

That would then mean they had to form political parties to represent their people in a Government and vote in actual politicians for that role.

Even now they don't have anything close to a leader for all of them. They are divided among themselves in a power struggle.

The Muslim Arabs get better democratic representation in Israel than they do in Palestine.

Well at least you are recognising Palestine today. It’s a good start.

 

[Jazny]

Make the whole region one new country.

Instant civil war, neither side wanted that.

 

[Bostonian]

Instant civil war, neither side wanted that.

As opposed to all the other conflicts that had happened and would come to happen?

 

[Jazny]

As opposed to all the other conflicts that had happened and would come to happen?

The question was for a better solution, not an equal or worse. The two state solution is still seen as the only realistic option.

 

[1990crow]

Royal commission Aussies want: Herald Sun

What rubbish.

 

[Bostonian]

The question was for a better solution, not an equal or worse. The two state solution is still seen as the only realistic option.

Now it is.

But until Palestinians demand one leader to represent them they won't get anywhere.

 

[RCAB]

Wait until you find out during the Byzantine era nobody was called Palestinian.

Irrelevant. Maybe go read some books or Wikipedia and then coming here and claiming other people don't read "books."

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

The question was for a better solution, not an equal or worse. The two state solution is still seen as the only realistic option.

That's questionable right now

GAZA IS SPLIT IN TWO. WHO’LL END UP IN CHARGE?

GAZA IS SPLIT IN TWO. WHO’LL END UP IN CHARGE?

todayspaper.theaustralian.com.au

 

[Bostonian]

Irrelevant. Maybe go read some books or Wikipedia and then coming here and claiming other people don't read "books."

It was relevant to the conversation that didn't involve you.

A claim was made, it was debunked.

 

[RCAB]

It was called Syria Palaestina actually.

Named by the Romans after the Bar Kokhba revolt to replace Judaea as the name of the region.

The name taken of course from the Philistines who lived in the region after arriving from the modern day Crete region.

That's a better historical account than the pissy effort you put up.

What part don't I know the history of exactly?

Or are you going to dispute everything I just laid out?

Oh wow you went and spent 10 mins doing some googling and thought it made you look knowledgeable? You think poorly thought out and wedged in history tidbits give you legitimacy in your arguments? It just shows how little you know about the region even though you've been discussing this topic for years.

Your claim about that it was called Syria Palaestina by the Romans after Bar Kokhba is accurate but what you're implying is I think misleading.


Romans also named Judaea which is also Syria Palaestina in the 2nd century CE. That name acutally comes from Philistia, (I've mentioned this before in another thread) that Romans used to name the region at the time.

This actually proves that
Palestine is a historical geographic name that was used continuously by Romans, Byzantines, Islam, Crusaders, Ottomans and British, all documented.


It doesn't prove your previous assertion (which is the same as the Zionist propaganda playbook) that people living there were “meaningless” or "fauna". And therefore had no right to identify with the region. That modern Palestinians are NOT invented.

It undermines you're whole premise about Palestinian self determination when you claim "they didn't have a country." Did Israel have a modern state prior to 1948? Nope.

And even that Zionist claim was tenuous at best when it was done through acts of coercion, terrorism and mass displacement.

 

[RCAB]

haha you thought you had a gotcha moment but all it makes you look is stupid.


"In 1913, Palestine existed as a recognized geographic region within the Ottoman Empire, but not as an independent, sovereign nation-state."

So not a country, not a state, just a bit of land with a meaningless name in the Ottoman Empire. So both claims can be true.

And so the people from that region were labelled Palestinian Muslims when connected with the Ottomon Empire.

These are your claims so far in this thread:



Palestine didn’t exist

Palestine existed but was meaningless

Palestinians existed but only as Ottomans

Palestinians fought with Australians at Gallipoli

Palestinians are to blame today for Hamas



You can’t have it all ways at once. You just switch mid argument to whatever is most convenient.

And wait for it...

The Palestinian Jews fought with the Australians at Gallipoli. Go look up the Zion Mule Corps.

Okay.. so you're proving the point again that Palestinians did exist. Not only that but that they were LITERALLY called Palestinian Jews! The term Palestinian was commonly used for Jews and Arabs alike BEFORE 1948.

This proves it was a regional identity, not made up and even Jews used it.

You’re basically contradicting yourself consistently. Quantity posting, is not quality posting.

You say Palestine didn't exist, then cite Syria Palaestina, then say Palestinians fought at Gallipoli, then say the name was meaningless. Either Palestinians existed as a regional identity or they didn’t. You can’t erase them for legitimacy and then resurrect them for blame.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Bomb-making list, firearms seized from Perth man accused of backing Bondi attackers

Police found a bomb-making shopping list when they searched the home of a man who allegedly posted on social media that he supported the gunmen behind the Bondi terror attack, a Perth court has heard.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

British man's visa cancelled after being charged with displaying Nazi symbols

The Australian government has promised changes to make it easier to deport people who spread hateful views.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Bostonian]

Oh wow you went and spent 10 mins doing some googling and thought it made you look knowledgeable? You think poorly thought out and wedged in history tidbits give you legitimacy in your arguments? It just shows how little you know about the region even though you've been discussing this topic for years.

Your claim about that it was called Syria Palaestina by the Romans after Bar Kokhba is accurate but what you're implying is I think misleading.


Romans also named Judaea which is also Syria Palaestina in the 2nd century CE. That name acutally comes from Philistia, (I've mentioned this before in another thread) that Romans used to name the region at the time.

This actually proves that
Palestine is a historical geographic name that was used continuously by Romans, Byzantines, Islam, Crusaders, Ottomans and British, all documented.


It doesn't prove your previous assertion (which is the same as the Zionist propaganda playbook) that people living there were “meaningless” or "fauna". And therefore had no right to identify with the region. That modern Palestinians are NOT invented.

It undermines you're whole premise about Palestinian self determination when you claim "they didn't have a country." Did Israel have a modern state prior to 1948? Nope.

And even that Zionist claim was tenuous at best when it was done through acts of coercion, terrorism and mass displacement.

No, I grew up with Lebanese friends.

So your 10 minute garbage call made me laugh.

That's why I was well aware of the shit going on in the Middle East long before all these Free-Palestine Muppets appeared on the scene.

It's why I don't have that high of an opinion of Palestine.

I knew what they tried in Jordan and their large part in kicking off the Civil War in Lebanon(that impacted my friends families).

Jordan and Lebanon, two big reasons why these days the majority of Middle Eastern nations want little to do with them.

 

[Yze does it]

Instant civil war, neither side wanted that.

Trump's got plans.

 

[Tigerat2020]

Why can't the Palestinians sue the British government for taking their land and giving it to another group of people after WW2.
The sensible and just solution would have been to anex part of Germany and create a Jewish state there.
Germany basically got off scot free after WW2.

 

[Frank Bunn]

But until Palestinians demand one leader to represent them they won't get anywhere.

It's a nice idea but Israel actively works against this objective. It undermines whichever group appears strongest or most capable of unifying Palestinians — whether Islamist (Hamas) or secular nationalist (Fatah/PLO). It's part of a long-term divide-and-rule strategy, aimed at preventing the emergence of a cohesive, effective Palestinian leadership that could unify popular support, negotiate from a position of strength, or pose a greater threat through coordinated resistance.

 

[demondavey]

Agreed but when people speak up against the atrocities committed by Israel it is deemed as anti Semitic.

That’s if you’re not particularly intelligent and capable of being easily offended. I mean anyone supporting a regime that’s killed 70,000 Palestinians in two years needs to wind in their necks, and that includes mouthing off post Bondi. It cuts both ways.

 

[demondavey]

I don't understand how that relates?

If you’re going to condemn the antisemitism in this country then you also better check your opinions re supporting Israel and their directive towards Palestine. 15 goes into 70,000 quite a few times. Is it excusable? No it’s not. People’s lives are ruined after the Bondi incident. But does the press show us the photos of 10 year olds in Gaza who have been killed? No they don’t.

So check your morals and make sure you’re not guilty of recency bias.