Small forward pain

[Catsace]

Being a long time Cat fan i can recall small forwards of the dim distant past who have carved us up over time, from Craig Davis, Ken Judge, the Krakouer brothers (and son) Brad Johnson, Darren Bewick, Fruity Allison, Nathan Eagleton and numerous others, even ostensible duds like Shannon Gibson and Brad Pierce!

But again this rears it's ugly head, as the consistent theme this year in our defeats is not just the fact we've been over-run in three of our losses, it's the inability to do anything to mind these small forwards. In the Pies game it was Elliot, Dwyer and Krakouer who all got three goals, against Brisbane it was McGrath andMoloney, Adelaide it was Wright and the goofy looking Lynch (actually he's probably tallish) but also Vince and Otten..and the Kangaroos it was Wells and Bastinac, who probably aren't even forwards at all. And this week, we make Monfries look like Leigh Matthews and Daicos reincarnated!

It's rare for any genuine KPP forward to inflict much damage, despite some contention on Lonergan's year, he's been very good at stopping his man, and most sides would easily accept 3-4 goals from a Buddy, a Kennedy, or either Riewoldt and the like, even Roughead. Indeed the only key forward to carve us up this year was probably Liam Jones of the Dogs! But i fear we just have to get better at shutting down these small forwards.

The question is.....is it the midfield that is letting the smaller backline players down by not defending the entries hard enough, or more a case of press style footy that sees the smaller guys actually be the ones who are in goal-scoring range to hurt us? Freo certainly play a style where they press very hard, force a turnover and then run the ball into the forward line for a Mayne or Walters/Pearce type to swoop into an open goal. Just reckon we have to improve this aspect of our play....and an important thing with this is to make it harder for sides to escape our forward line. Playing a restricted Hawkins in the sense that he is unable to apply any pressure once the ball hits the ground might be something that will be very costly unless other players are able to be extra defensive and really force some forward pressure, to reduce the speed of the rebound out of our forward line.

 

[CatFan79]

I brought this up last night in another thread.. The answer to your question is yes, our midfield are slack defensively include Mackie, Corey and Bartel in that. Hinkley is right, Mackie is poor defensively.

Dropping Josh Hunt was a mistake, let's see how long it takes 'Mr Positive' C Scott to work it out..

 

[cynical]

it's our poor ruck work that provides opposition with quick breaks

lead up forwards kill us when there is no midfield pressure because our backs are all slow (minus Guthrie)

 

[CatFan79]

it's our poor ruck work that provides opposition with quick breaks

lead up forwards kill us when there is no midfield pressure because our backs are all slow (minus Guthrie)

Complain about what we can't fix or deal with what we can fix?

 

[Catsace]

I reckon J.Hunt has been pretty good this year since his return, so it was surprising to see him dropped. His booming kicking out from the goal square too when kicking out is also something that we should use more. Hope he comes back in, as the spectre of LeCras is looming large against the Weagles. LOnergan and Harry T/Rivers should handle the regular threats in Darling and Kennedy. MInd you, in an opposite vein, Cox has also presented as a dangerous goalkicker for the Eagles as well against us, so whoever our ruckman is needs to watch out for that.

 

[fpm84]

I regard J Hunt, Enright and Guthrie as very capable small defenders.

Catsace highlighted a few games where we've been smashed by a small forward (like Monfries on the weekened) but it's also worth noting that the likes of Rioli, Milne and Betts have always been reasonably well held by our backline in comparison to other teams.

The question for the match committee at the moment is whether J Hunt, Guthrie and Rivers can all fit into the same team. I think it will be a horses for courses thing in the finals - Rivers will be important against Hawthorn for example, which has all of Franklin/Roughead/Hale/Bailey able to play forward. But against a team like Collingwood where Elliott, Dwyer, Krakouer etc caused us trouble earlier this year, I'd rather play Hunt and Guthrie and leave Rivers out.

 

[candiehappy]

it seems to me that we are so committed to driving forward from the backline that come a turnover we are totally open, and it's the small opposition players that cut us up. On another thread a poster said this is happening more late in the game because of a heavy load on the track. I don't know.

but... second on the ladder, I wouldn't be tinkering too much with the game plan. And sorry, I'm a huge Mackie fan. Wait the finals and then make comment.

and the Op missed one - for those who were around for the '92 GF. Peter Matera. I still have nightmares ....

 

[Nicko29]

J.Hunt needs to play over Rivers to shut down the smalls and Bartel should be kept as far away from defence as possible unless he is playing as the loose man (though he would be much more useful forward of centre).

 

[CF]

The modern style of game seems to be to press up offensively to try and keep the ball in the forward line, or press up defensively to cause a turnover. This often leaves space behind that can be exploited by the fast outside runners that are small HF flankers or midfielder's. This can work in your favour like we see in our team with players kicking fast overlapping running goals. It can also work against you if you turn the ball over in the midfield and the opposition runners get their sling shot working and take advantage of the space created by our backman being up the field zoning.

So I think the OPer's comments are rather simplistic to just say the small forwards are killing us. We've won 15 games this season so CS is obviously doing something right. So the problem has nothing to do with personnel not being able to nullify opposition small forwards, it's a weakness/flaw in the tactics used in the game that creates the opportunity.

 

[catempire]

Agree with most of the comments above - we are getting burned on transition and opposition small forwards have too much space to work in. Wouldn't matter who we had lining up at the moment, it's a tactical, not personnel deficiency.

In Enright, Guthrie and J.Hunt (when needed), we have one of the most capable small defensive units going around.

HOWEVER, I never ever, ever want to see J.Bartel minding the opposition's best small forward again. Did I mention never ever? NEVER EVER. Stop trolling us C.Scott!

 

[CF]

I think Bartel is better when he plays as the loose man in defence rather than having a direct opponent. I guess they rotate and take players while guys are on the bench for a rest. Jimmy isn't playing great football at the moment I agree. Ever since his suspension he's been a bit down.

 

[Partridge]

and the Op missed one - for those who were around for the '92 GF. Peter Matera. I still have nightmares ....

To be fair, Matera was playing on the wing that day. Blame Blight's tactical ineptness as much as anything else.

 

[Vdubs]

Bosustow?
Saw him carve us up, marking out of this world, played smallish

 

[CatFan79]

I think Bartel is better when he plays as the loose man in defence rather than having a direct opponent. I guess they rotate and take players while guys are on the bench for a rest. Jimmy isn't playing great football at the moment I agree. Ever since his suspension he's been a bit down.

Anyone looks great when loose in defence.. Point is, C Scott should have more respect for the small defender roll given that he was one himself.. I wonder how he would have felt back in the day being dropped so a Power/Lappin could play his role..

 

[FredLeDeux]

J.Hunt needs to play over Rivers to shut down the smalls and Bartel should be kept as far away from defence as possible unless he is playing as the loose man (though he would be much more useful forward of centre).

Bartel has been absolutely crucial this year in our main goal-scoring method, namely from half-back turnovers.
He should not play forward.
He should not play as a lock-down defender on small forwards.
He should continue to play as a behind the ball attacker (or, as some anachronistically describe it, a loose man in defence).

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Bartel has been absolutely crucial this year in our main goal-scoring method, namely from half-back turnovers.
He should not play forward.
He should not play as a lock-down defender on small forwards.
He should continue to play as a behind the ball attacker (or, as some anachronistically describe it, a loose man in defence).

But whenever he lines up there from now on, the other team will put someone on him. A genuine goalkicking option. Playing as that rebounding looseish half back is a pretty easy gig, but eventually an opponent wises up and makes you prove you can actually, you know, defend.

 

[FredLeDeux]

But whenever he lines up there from now on, the other team will put someone on him. A genuine goalkicking option. Playing as that rebounding looseish half back is a pretty easy gig, but eventually an opponent wises up and makes you prove you can actually, you know, defend.

There are always trade-offs; that should free up Mackie or Enright to do more intercept/turnover work.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

There are always trade-offs; that should free up Mackie or Enright to do more intercept/turnover work.

But then if Hawkins isn't able to take contested marks and we just bomb it in there, they'll be able to chop us off time and again with their loose man. I think we need to play players in their best positions and I think we need to go one on one everywhere. If we were to play a loose man in defence, to be honest, I'd probably give a reprieve to Varcoe.

 

[FredLeDeux]

But then if Hawkins isn't able to take contested marks and we just bomb it in there, they'll be able to chop us off time and again with their loose man. I think we need to play players in their best positions and I think we need to go one on one everywhere. If we were to play a loose man in defence, to be honest, I'd probably give a reprieve to Varcoe.

In my experience the best way of improving is to change things that aren't working, not the things that are working (note how I refrained from the usual cliches) and Bartel as a behind the ball attacker has been working more than well this season.
If they revert to the proven successful formula this week and it fails for the reason you suggest (or for some other likely-to-recur reason), then you change.

 

[Turbocat]

on Saturdays game , I was frustrated at the matchup. After Monfrie kicked his 3rd or 4th it was obvious something different need to be done. Now what that difference would have been? I would have tried Varcoe and told him to have hands on him at all times.Could he have done any worse? He was doing sweet fanny adams in the forwardline so it could have been a win/win, Could he do it. Probably not but Id like to see him try. He is in such poor form atm it might actually take the pressure off him.

Long term we must have a defensive minded smallish defender with enough pace to cope with the fast break. Is Eardley quick enough?.... if so he is the man.

 

[Catsace]

Bosustow?
Saw him carve us up, marking out of this world, played smallish

Indeed..the 1981 2SF still rankles.

But at least he was freakish and super talented, like a Daicos. Monfries...Geez.....he's averaged a little more than a goal a game in a 150+ game career, sort of like a rich man's David Haynes at best. It was just the ease of which he gained space...particularly when the previous three games at KP saw extremely frugal defence restrict Freo, the Dees and Saints to less than 50 points each and a handful of inside 50's. Granted the weather was fine and sunny rather than cold and wet this time, but i hope that red carpet defence last weekend is addressed for the finals!

Liking the discussion here too....it's not really a knee jerk, more just a sort of frustration at stopping the big guns successfully yet allowing mid-tier and unheralded types to do the damage. Maybe i'm just a bit strange in feeling a bit happier (for want of a better word) if one is beaten by a better more skilled player.

But i do trust the match committee and the coaching staff to address this in time....let's start with LeCras this weekend!

 

[CF]

Anyone looks great when loose in defence.. Point is, C Scott should have more respect for the small defender roll given that he was one himself.. I wonder how he would have felt back in the day being dropped so a Power/Lappin could play his role..

Well that's not true. In fact Bartel has been often criticised because he doesn't play much as a midfielder anymore. He's become a role player and therefore doesn't stand out compared to some other players since he won his Brownlow. In regards to selecting players to play in whatever position, I trust CS judgement long before I would yours.

 

[CatFan79]

Well that's not true. In fact Bartel has been often criticised because he doesn't play much as a midfielder anymore. He's become a role player and therefore doesn't stand out compared to some other players since he won his Brownlow. In regards to selecting players to play in whatever position, I trust CS judgement long before I would yours.

What's not true? I'm not potting Bartel, I trust what I see on the ground. Bartel was probably caught between trying to play loose and man somebody up and you saw the result.. It was a stuff up, C Scott doesn't get it right all the time.

 

[Partridge]

But whenever he lines up there from now on, the other team will put someone on him. A genuine goalkicking option. Playing as that rebounding looseish half back is a pretty easy gig, but eventually an opponent wises up and makes you prove you can actually, you know, defend.

Best possible evidence for that was the 2008 Grand Final and Round 1, 2009. Stokes was on Hodge for the majority of the Grand Final and wasn't anywhere near what he needed to be. Thompson at least learned (far too late) from that and put Rooke on Hodge in the following game. Hodge had zero impact on the game, Rooke kicked at least a couple of goals and negated that threat completely.

 

[Partridge]

on Saturdays game , I was frustrated at the matchup. After Monfrie kicked his 3rd or 4th it was obvious something different need to be done. Now what that difference would have been? I would have tried Varcoe and told him to have hands on him at all times.Could he have done any worse? He was doing sweet fanny adams in the forwardline so it could have been a win/win, Could he do it. Probably not but Id like to see him try. He is in such poor form atm it might actually take the pressure off him.

Long term we must have a defensive minded smallish defender with enough pace to cope with the fast break. Is Eardley quick enough?.... if so he is the man.

I think that would be a huge ask for Varcoe. He's never been a defender. His attributes are best used getting the ball and using his pace and skills. Not sure if he's the right guy to try out as a defender. That's not a criticism, it's just that he doesn't seem that type of player.

What really hurt us was not having Taylor and Josh Hunt. I don't mind players getting dropped for poor performances - I'm in favour of it - but the downside was it left us vulnerable there. Plus with T.Hunt out they seem to be keen on developing Guthrie as a runwith midfielder if not tagger, so he wasn't down there all game either.