Research Small questions that don't require a whole thread

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No

Its always been an honourific rather than a specific item. Various people have donated ''wooden spoons ' over time

Wooden spoon seems to come from Cambridge University in England where the lowest graded member of a class would be gifted it

ie 1863 obit claims http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page17535108


Judge Cresswell was not distin
guished at college, having gained the honor
of " wooden spoon,"
but ou the Northern
Fix this textcircuit he showed his real merits, having
held his- own well and honorably against
snch men as Scarlet, Brougham, Campbell,
Alderson. He is succeded by Baron Wilde,

The WOODEN SPOON

From Bell’s Life in Sydney and Sporting Chronicle. 23/7/64

We have said that rigorous account is kept of all the divisions, and that every vote of every member of the Government is posted. We will

now teil our readers what is done with this list.

Every year at the close of the session, as our readers know, the Ministers dine together at the Trafalgar. Well, after dinner, the chief whip produces his account and reads it aloud and it is said that the man whose name appears in the Division list the smallest number of times has a wooden spoon presentod to him. When the Derbyites

were in power last, Sir John Pakington, it is asserted, was the successful candidate for the Spoon, Mr Whiteside presenting it to the Right hon. baronet with infinite humour and fun. Why a wooden Spoon is used we cannot tell. Perhaps in ancient times the poor man had that

and nothing else. If any of our readers should be curious to know what is really symbolised by this ceremony, let them understand that we cannot help them. We refer them to tho editor of Notes and Queries

-Illustrated times.





The Ministerial Wooden Spoon

The Herald, 4/6/1864

A list of the votes of the members of the Government who are in the House of Commons is produced at the Whitebait Dinner, and he who

is lowest on the list is regarded, by his Cambridge friends at least, as the wooden spoon.

During the administration of Sir Robert Peel, when the Ministerial party wast starting in Greenwich, one of them, in passing through Hungerford Market, bought a child’s mug and a wooden spoon. After dinner, when the list of votes had been read out, the penny mug, on which was painted either "James" or "For a good boy," was presented, with all

solemnity , to Sir James Graham, and the

wooden spoon to Sir William Follett.

Notes and Queries.



My Note: Peel’s Prime Ministership started in 1834, he did not attend Cambridge.



From Wikipedia

Wooden spoon at the University of Cambridge

The wooden spoon was presented originally at the University of Cambridge as a kind of booby prizeawarded by the students to the man who achieved the lowest exam marks but still earned a third-class degree (a junior optime) in the Mathematical Tripos. The term "wooden spoon" or simply "the spoon" was also applied to the recipient, and the prize became quite notorious:



“And while he lives, he wields the boasted prize

Whose value all can feel, the weak, the wise;

Displays in triumph his distinguish'd boon,

The solid honours of the Wooden Spoon.”



My Note: from the Cambridge Tart, 1823.



The spoons themselves, actually made of wood, grew larger, and in latter years measured up to five feet long. By tradition, they were dangled in a teasing way from the upstairs balcony in the Senate House, in front of the recipient as he came before the Vice-Chancellor to receive his degree, at least until 1875 when the practice was specifically banned by the University.

The lowest placed students earning a second-class (senior optime) or first-class degree (wrangler) were sometimes known as the "silver spoon" and "golden spoon" respectively. In contrast, the highest-scoring male student was named the "senior wrangler". Students unfortunate enough to place below the wooden spoon, by achieving only an Ordinary degree, were given a variety of names depending on their number. In the 1860s about three-quarters of the roughly 400 candidates did not score enough to be awarded honours, and were known as poll men.

The custom dates back at least to the late 18th century, being recorded in 1803, and continued until 1909. From 1910 onwards the results have been given in alphabetical rather than score order, and so it is now impossible to tell who has come last, unless there is only one person in the lowest class.



My Notes: However;





From the “Ambiguous Expressions at Cambridge elucidated, The Gentleman’s Magazine: and Historical Chronicle (London) of January 1795”:

It may not perhaps be improper to mention one very remarkable personage […]. I mean “The Wooden Spoon.” This luckless wight (for what cause I know not) is annually the universal butt and laughing-stock of the whole senate-house. He is the last of those young men who take honours, in his year, and is called a junior optimé; yet, notwithstanding his being in fact superior to them all, the very lowest of the οἱ πολλοί (others) or gregarious undistinguished batchelors, think themselves entitled to shoot the pointless arrows of their clumsy wit against the wooden spoon; and to reiterate the stale and perennial remark, that “wranglers are born with gold spoons in their mouths : senior optimés with silver : junior optimés with wooden : and the οἱ πολλοί (others) with leaden ones.”



My Note: As far as sport is concerned it was awarded to to last placed rowers in the various Cambridge Rowing Clubs and was also awarded in Rugby Union Competitions later, probably because of the many ex Cambridge graduate participants...commencing dates are uncertain.



In the Australian Colonies

First sporting references:





RIFLE COMPETITION.

The Queenslander, 14/11/68

SIR: About a month ago the Volunteers were informed that about the beginning of December there was to be a rifle competition. In all properly organised competitions it is the practice to give at least one month's notice as to prizes, distances, conditions, &c. So I trust

in this instance the workers out of this compe tition, to whom the highest praise is awarded, will not be behind in supplying the desired in

formation, as the Volunteers in this colony are so widespread.

Yours,

WINNER OF THE WOODEN SPOON.



Rifle Competition

Northern Argus (SA) 21/5/1869

On Monday last a shooting match for prizes, with rifles, came off at Sevenhills. The weather was all that could be desired for the occasion. The firing was excellent on the whole and the competitors were very evenly matched.

The first prize was taken by Mr. Gus. Wiekert. Mr. Y. Mayer the second prise, and Mr. J. Nicholls tke third prize, There were nine prizes in all, besides a wooden spoon, which caused a great deal of merriment. After the shooting, a public dinner was held at the Sevenhills Hotel, where a sumptuous spread was provided by Host Lummer, to which ample justice was done by the company. The room, was then

cleared and preparations made for a ball, which was kept up with great spirit until near day break.





And Football:

The first reference I can find is;



FOOTBALL.

The Express and Telegraph, 7/5/1881.

The football season of 1881 commences to-day, when the first of the association matches will take place. The coming season promises to be very successful, for in the first place the associated clubs will be playing for fifty-guinea silver cup, a handsome present from the Hon.

G. S. Fowler, the patron of the association, and secondly, the clubs are reduced in number, so that they each meet three times during the season, an arrangement which the association did wisely in making.

(ABRIDGED)



The South Parks should hold fourth place, for with W. Oshorn, late of the Kensington Club, and Flowers, from Melbourne, they ought to beat

the South Adelaides, who with no new men, and on last season's form cannot expect to be any higher on the list. The Kensington and Adelaide Club should appropriate the wooden spoon easily, for they have both lost many good men, and rumour (however unkind) says

that the amalgamated clnb will be weaker than were either of the clubs separately.
 
Hey all.
Atm I have the 1958 VFL THIRDS Grand Final as: 30 August 1958 Richmond 12.14.86 def Essendon 7.9.61 at Punt Road.
Originally I had the match at MCG, but a player from the day Renato Ricci advised it was played at Punt Road, he thought cause there was a draw along the way somewhere which pushed everything back a week.
However, my queries is... is the date of the match 30 August?
The 1958 Rd 17 record says that the scheduled date, but I'm just trying to confirm that is when it actually occured. Screen Shot 2020-12-23 at 5.06.28 pm.png
 
Hey all.
Atm I have the 1958 VFL THIRDS Grand Final as: 30 August 1958 Richmond 12.14.86 def Essendon 7.9.61 at Punt Road.
Originally I had the match at MCG, but a player from the day Renato Ricci advised it was played at Punt Road, he thought cause there was a draw along the way somewhere which pushed everything back a week.
However, my queries is... is the date of the match 30 August?
The 1958 Rd 17 record says that the scheduled date, but I'm just trying to confirm that is when it actually occured.View attachment 1031765
It was still scheduled for 30 August (and Punt Road) according to The Age, Monday the 25th:
1608707129655.png
1608707078720.png

And the Football Record did seem to have it being played on the 30th:
1608710366951.png

Strangely, I can't see any details/mention of the game in The Age or the Football Record after it should have been played!

There weren't any drawn Thirds matches at all that season (including during the finals), according to the Record. The finals were played over just three weeks, as scheduled.
 
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Well there's nothing to say the game DIDNT go ahead on Aug 30th.
Just a bit odd there's no score of it in the next issue of the paper or footy record
 
Well there's nothing to say the game DIDNT go ahead on Aug 30th.
Just a bit odd there's no score of it in the next issue of the paper or footy record
Yes, that does seem odd, but it's still reasonable to believe the game was played on the 30th of August!
 
Does anybody know much about the Victorian Police Football Association? It was a competition where the games were played on Wednesday and some big names took part during the 1930s such as Laurie Nash and Jack Dyer. The players would play during the week in addition to their VFL club games on Saturdays and any interstate appearances. I am currently reading Laurie Nash's biography from 1998 and have been looking up newspaper reports online which relate to this competition. I am interested in the 1936 season specifically as there are some match reports which do not appear to be available online, although they could well be available in the State Library's microfilm drawers.
 
Which game featured the most future coaches?

I was watching the Round 16 2001 “Comeback” match between Essendon and North Melbourne and noticed five:
James Hird, Damien Hardwick, Dean Solomon, Adam Simpson and David Teague.

Would there be more in another match?
 
Having a discussion with a mate about the careers of the following players:

Brendon Goddard
Matthew Boyd
Jobe Watson

I suggested Matthew Boyd had the best career of the three and I based my opinion off of All Australians, total Brownlow votes, career games and best and fairest awards.

My question is simple. What do you use as a method to compare players when they retire?Are the metrics I’ve used unreasonable?
 
So I'm watching the last quarter of the 1994 SANFL Grand Final, because why not, and I noticed an interesting banner in the crowd.

Late '94 was right around the time the second SA license was being decided on, so the reference to the Crows is not surprising. In fact there were some other banners that referred to the AFL in one way or another, but the adoration of Sam Newman is a head scratcher. Did he play some significant role in matters of national expansion at the time? Or did he just have a big fan in Adelaide.

In case it's not entirely clear, it says "Sam Newman for PM"
 

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So I'm watching the last quarter of the 1994 SANFL Grand Final, because why not, and I noticed an interesting banner in the crowd.

Late '94 was right around the time the second SA license was being decided on, so the reference to the Crows is not surprising. In fact there were some other banners that referred to the AFL in one way or another, but the adoration of Sam Newman is a head scratcher. Did he play some significant role in matters of national expansion at the time? Or did he just have a big fan in Adelaide.

In case it's not entirely clear, it says "Sam Newman for PM"
Sam Newman derided the Crows - until we won the flag in 97 - on The Footy Show - there was a lot of feeling from both sides so its not surprising to see
 
Does anyone know when it was decided that 19th/20th men that didn't enter the field (1930-1977), would be credited with a game? Looking back at news reports of the time, it seems it wasn't initially the intention.

But at some point it became the norm.

Back in the 30s and 40s, players named as 19th man who actually WERE subbed on, weren't even considered as having played. If not selected the following week, they were not listed as Outs. If selected in the 18, they were announced as Ins, even though they took the field the week before.

At some point this changed, does anyone know when?

As an aside to this, I found this bizarre instance of round 14 1942 - Wally Bristowe is credited with his 11th and final game for Hawthorn. However he wasn't even at the venue! Originally named as an emergency, a couple of late withdrawals meant Bristowe was required as 19th man. However his army posting on the day meant he couldn’t get leave to attend. Luckily the Hawks didn’t need an injury replacement that day. But the records now show him as having played the game.
 
Stumbled across an interesting (at least to me :)) addition to the Ablett family cluster
Allan Mummery (St Kilda, 1945) was the son of Elsie Ablett - who was the sister of Norman & Henry Ablett in the wikipedia family tree
Thus Allan was the first cousin of Len Ablett and the second uncle of Gary Ablett Snr etc....
 
With Jeremy Cameron now at Geelong were we the last club to have had an ex Giant on the list? Are there any clubs that haven’t had either a former Sun or Giant?


Footscray, West Coast and Sydney haven't had a Gold Coast player on their list.

Correct me if wrong but Sydney haven't had a GWS player in their ranks either.
 

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Footscray, West Coast and Sydney haven't had a Gold Coast player on their list.

Correct me if wrong but Sydney haven't had a GWS player in their ranks either.
You forgot about Tom Hickey, Redman! He started out with Gold Coast, and has gone on to play for West Coast and Sydney. Keegan Brooksby played for Gold Coast and was on the list of West Coast (without playing seniors). Alex Keath (Western Bulldogs) probably should qualify as another player who was on the Suns' list. Though he didn't play senior football for the club (and was focusing on cricket at the time) he was retained on their list for 2011, their first season in the AFL.

Sydney have had Shaun Edwards (GWS>Essendon>Sydney) on their list, though he didn't play a senior game for them.

I'm pretty certain GWS haven't had an ex-Gold Coast player on their list. I can't see any other club who haven't had at least one ex-Gold Coast and one ex-GWS player on their list.
 
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Carlton i believe


From Gold Coast directly:

Jack Martin.
Daniel Gorringe.

Indirectly:

Adam Saad.


From GWS:

Matthew Kennedy.
Lachie Plowman.
Jed Lamb.
Andrew Phillips.
Liam Sumner.
Caleb Marchbank.
Will Setterfield.
Zac Williams.
Kristian Jaksch.
Mark Whiley.
 
From Gold Coast directly:

Jack Martin.
Daniel Gorringe.

Indirectly:

Adam Saad.


From GWS:

Matthew Kennedy.
Lachie Plowman.
Jed Lamb.
Andrew Phillips.
Liam Sumner.
Caleb Marchbank.
Will Setterfield.
Zac Williams.
Kristian Jaksch.
Mark Whiley.
Yeah obviously. Was trying to take the piss but you guys are too sharp
 
Artie 'Joe' White played for Preston in the 1890's and had a quick stint at Essendon
White (From Preston) at Essendon - Apr 1897 - http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9164382
Permit J.A. White from Essendon to Preston 25-Jun-1897 (Newspaper date) - http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article190656001

White was in the VJFA representative team 1898
was captain 1898, 1899
He is in the 1900 team photo
'White' was again a Preston representative in the VJFA representative teams in April 1901
I then have 'White' again at Essendon in May 1901, again returning to Preston in June:
Playing for Essendon May 1901 - "a 'Preston junior, White, a man of singular promise " - http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article139160318
Permit Arthur White from Essendon F.C. to Preston – 19-Jun-1901 - http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10556699

I actually have Artie 'Joe' White at Preston from 1896 to circa 1911
He usually played as a follower
Possibly also the Joe White who was head trainer circa 1921-1934

My confusion is that Wikipedia has the White's at Essendon in 1897 and 1901 as two separate people

Any ideas?
 

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Artie 'Joe' White played for Preston in the 1890's and had a quick stint at Essendon
White (From Preston) at Essendon - Apr 1897 - http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9164382
Permit J.A. White from Essendon to Preston 25-Jun-1897 (Newspaper date) - http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article190656001

White was in the VJFA representative team 1898
was captain 1898, 1899
He is in the 1900 team photo
'White' was again a Preston representative in the VJFA representative teams in April 1901
I then have 'White' again at Essendon in May 1901, again returning to Preston in June:
Playing for Essendon May 1901 - "a 'Preston junior, White, a man of singular promise " - http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article139160318
Permit Arthur White from Essendon F.C. to Preston – 19-Jun-1901 - http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10556699

I actually have Artie 'Joe' White at Preston from 1896 to circa 1911
He usually played as a follower
Possibly also the Joe White who was head trainer circa 1921-1934

My confusion is that Wikipedia has the White's at Essendon in 1897 and 1901 as two separate people

Any ideas?
It really does look highly likely that it was the same player all the way through, and that Essendon may have to remove a player from it's all-time player list. It's almost certainly the same person in those two photos you've included (though it seems a bit odd that in the 1900 one he's called Arch White - presumably that's just a mistake?). I think the inclusion of White from Preston in those rep. teams a few years apart is rather significant.

I suspect they went with James Augustine White for the 1897 player as it matched the J. A. White in the permit for the player from/to Preston that year. Could it be the J. A. actually came from 'Joe' and Artie/Arthur, or just an error in the paper? James Augustine was born at Bungaree and died at Ballarat. He had these children who were born up that way when the player was still with Preston, so totally unlikely that he'd have been the one still playing there until 1911:
1622290512692.png

Arthur William White is said to be the 1901 player. He was living at North Carlton in 1909. His father was William Joseph, so perhaps the 'Joe' came from his name:
1622292216291.png
1622293696531.png
Being born in England could be a bit of a concern, but hopefully not. Overall, he seems a much more likely candidate than the other chap to me! While it does seem certain that there should be just the one player who played for Essendon in 1897 and 1901, I'm just hoping that one of those two names they've come up with is the right person!
 
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It really does look highly likely that it was the same player all the way through, and that Essendon may have to remove a player from it's all-time player list. It's almost certainly the same person in those two photos you've included (though it seems a bit odd that in the 1900 one he's called Arch White - presumably that's just a mistake?). I think the inclusion of White from Preston in those rep. teams a few years apart is rather significant.

My Preston records are pretty sporadic. It could be that there was an 'Archie White' and an 'Arthur White', but I think not.
Brian Membrey's 'Where we came from' history of the Preston club also only mentions one A.J. White and notes he retired after 20 seasons in 1911 (p.65)
 
My Preston records are pretty sporadic. It could be that there was an 'Archie White' and an 'Arthur White', but I think not.
Brian Membrey's 'Where we came from' history of the Preston club also only mentions one A.J. White and notes he retired after 20 seasons in 1911 (p.65)

OK in 1902 I have two players named White at Preston. They were brothers (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article241905928)
Goalkicker in week 1 1902 is A.White http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article241886706
Goalkicker in week 2 1902 is J.White http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article241904887

Ahhhh .. need to look at the family tree...could be one brother in 1897 and the other in 1901
 
OK in 1902 I have two players named White at Preston. They were brothers (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article241905928)
Goalkicker in week 1 1902 is A.White http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article241886706
Goalkicker in week 2 1902 is J.White http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article241904887

Ahhhh .. need to look at the family tree...could be one brother in 1897 and the other in 1901
Hmmm! That does make it interesting!

According to this, White from Preston would be playing for West Melbourne in 1899: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/241855306
But did he go there? I can't see a White playing for them that year. A. White was captain of Preston for this game (and seems to have been for a few games after that): 10 Jun 1899 - THE PLAY. - Trove (nla.gov.au)

White (Preston) is named on the wing in this 1902 Combined Juniors team: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/227538297
If that was correct, that shouldn't be 'Joe' White, Preston's "big follower". But it seems that both of them were well regarded players. Looking at where White who played for Essendon in 1901 was named in the line-ups I'd say it's pretty certain that it was 'Joe', who obviously was the long-term Preston player.
 
During the 2009 Callington footy club season, one result bugs me.

Torrens Valley 62.28 (436) d Callington 0.0 (0).
Best -J Sitters, J Hill, T Young, M Clayton, C Young. Callington: Z Minear, D Taylor, C Wilson, D White, L Birthisel. Goals - Torrens Valley: J Sitters 13, J Hill 12, M Clayton, J Trewen 8, R Battams 6, D Fox 5, C Young 4.

62.28 doesn't add up to 436, only 400, but I see 62.28 (436) spread around everywhere without the math being double-checked. I haven't been able to find a full list of goalkickers for TV, but the existing list accounts for 56 goals. I'm inclined to believe that there's a wider spread of goalkickers that would give the proper total of 68, as I don't believe six goals could be spread out given the lowest goalkicker on the list already has four goals.

Can anybody who knows about the Hills league confirm whether it's 68.28 (436) or 62.28 (400)?
 

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