Small whisper

[mediumsizered]

I am no Pagan supporter, Ill be honest up front. The fact that walker came out and suggested that if he wasnt contracted that he would walk doesnt sit well with me. On top of that I do believe there is some truth behind the whole Thornton spat and in the end, before trade week, the club matched Hawthorn yet he still wanted to leave... the dollars and the years were there, there had to be another factor driving him to wanting to leave. In the end he stayed and im sure every carlton supporter couldnt be happier, christ I am!

The point I was trying to get across before wasnt a "hang pagan and replace him now", I am at ease with the fact that we will need to put up with him for at most the next two years. Hopefully they are productive years. More I was trying to point out the suspicious circumstance in which thornton back flips, russells back flips ratten and crosica are recruited, eshlaug is sacked I think we need to come to grips with the reality that the carlton we see wont be run by Pagan. To me this is the board stating firmly, "you dont want to be a man and walk, we'll limit your powers and influence". And I totally agree, there is no point in having players at the club who dont want to play for the coach, therefore my conclusion is that the players have been promised something, whether that be Pagan is day time coach ratten and crosica have a strong influence, or pagan will be gone at the end of 07 guarenteed, or end of 08 he will be shown the door and told never to return.

One eyed carlton dont get me wrong just airing an opinion based on information gathered... just to clarify source would be an ex carlton board memeber/life member, compliations of reports from SEN, 3AW, herald sun and other big footy threads. Yes not the most reliable besides the 1st one but when you think about the theories their not far fetched at all.

It is a virtual given that Pagan will not have his contract renewed after 2008. His age, alone, will count against him. The appointment of Crosisca and Ratten are a definite indication that a succession plan is being put in place. That doesn't mean Pagan is a dead man walking, it means that he will be given a further 2 years to work with our young list (his record indicates he is one of the best in the business with the kids).

If the last 2 premiership teams are any guide, younger coaches are going to become the way for all clubs. Neither Elshaug or Liberatore are looked at as potential senior coaches and Barry Mitchell's inability to get the Bullants to the line in the last 2 seasons has probably put a number of question marks over his coaching ability. It more and more points to Ratten & Crosisca as your potential replacements for Pagan and I am comfortable with that, as I am sure Pagan is as well. Let's not get caught up in conspiracy theories, instead let's keep things in perspective and start accepting that maybe the club has got some direction happening at last.

 

[deluxeman]

Fraser Brown has no chance of getting into power. The positives that have come out of MC Labour Park over the last couple of days, on top of how the club conducted itself during trade week, demonstrates that the club, led by Smorgon is starting to grow in confidence and self belief.

Fraser Brown trumpeted bring the likes of Ratten, Bradley, Williams back to the club, on the proviso that Pagan was not around. Well, Ratten is back, whispers are that Bradley will follow. All required players have been retained. We go into the national draft with our 3 picks in the top 20 and we can still utilise pick 1 in the PSD on the best available uncontracted player. So what is Brown going to bring to the club other than instability? If he really wants to help the club, he should put the funds he was allegedly going to raise, towards paying off some debt instead of paying out Pagan's contract. That is what the club needs, not more reshuffling of the deckchairs.

I wouldn't say that he has no chance. He has promised other things as well such as bringing funds to the club to clear the debt in addition to paying out Pagan's contract, which I do not know if he will be able to keep. Furthermore if rumours are true of names like Pratt and Grollo being on the ticket then it would considerably add to their votes due to the respect that these people possess, even if the voters don't agree with Brown's plans.

Honestly, before last week I was all for a change of the board and the coach. But frankly the attitude and behaviour of Smorgon and Pagan over the last week and their dealings during trade week has certainly made me re-consider. They could have rolled over and made themselves look better by dealing but they stuck to their guns and did what is best for the club.

I'm still not convinced that Pagan is the best man for the job but I think he should be allowed to at very least, coach until the end of '07. This is basically in agreeance with your point that sacking the coach now or any time during the pre-season would further de-stabilise the club.

 

[audas]

You don't really know much do you. We've been a disgrace for 4 years, a 15th and back to back spoons. We pay this bloke 600 grand a year to do what? No list is ever that bad. We won 10 games 2 years ago and our list is better now. He had enough this year to be able to at least do something and what did we get, 3 1/2 wins, worse than last year's embarrassment. So much for progress. I don't care if we're like the "tiges". We have good reason. Not going to sit back because "gee, we might be like Richmond" then watch things fall apart. If Fraser's group gets in this year some time, Pagan's gone.

Glad you're so easily pleased.

As always not taking everything into account. Your thinking on this matter is the most simplistic, one sided and in the end unconvincing of anyone on these boards. No matter what happens you always say the same old negative junk without ever considering what others have said or all the facts at hand. But then again everyone knows this about your style dont they.

 

[Bluebear]

Not wishing to dampen a solid last week in the clubs progress back up the ladder, just want to convene what I have heard and to portray some suspicions that I have...

Actually thats exactly what you wish to do.
Heard from?????
Oh, yes, those anonymous source are back. chelsworthgale = Carro

Thornton resigning for three years, Russell resigning for two along with blackwell and wiggins... Pagan loses his right hand man, Ratten joins the club and Silgvani a much stronger chance to join now with his former team mate down there... Is anyone else sensing the push for pagan to leave...

Pure Carro.......grab some irrelevant recent events to the point you are making (actually they refute the point you are making.......with both players re-signing), Ratten joins and states (again) that there is no issue, nor was there ever with Dennis......add in some fairy tale about SOS and of course.........Dennis must be gone.......

I mean wasnt there talk that Thornton didnt want to be there, amoung other things, because of Pagan and then to resign for three years instead of say one, someone may have assured him that Pagan might not be there soon. It seems to me that the wheels are in motion and come the end of the year Pagan might just not be there...

Denied by Dennis and Bret's manager (who would have pedalled this if it were even slightly true), and obviously denied by Brets actions in signing for three years (oh, yeah, on the proviso that Dennis is gone right?).....Wow.....that solid.........stop the press Carro

I'm by no means trying to sledge the progress the club has made over the last week, it has been fantastic but remember that hard work was done my malouf and grant williams, pagan's name hasn't been raised at all...

Thoughts?

Wow, heck of a way to not sledge the progress.

If you haven't got anything nice to say..............

I don't know about anyone else but I'm convinced....Brown has got my vote................(thinking to himself.......so Browny is in the Book depository, Thornton on the Grassy noll, and Ratten on the overpass..............makes sense to me).

 

[avid blue supporter]

Pagan is staying. Cant beleive the stuff that goes on around here, people just cant help themselves. The ONLY reason that there has been a question over Pagan is because people cant understand the damage done by previous administrations and the afl. Singling out people for blame is pathetic. It has beena rough road and we certainly saw the ugly underside of both administration and supporters. Things got a bit hard and people just showed how weak they were.

I dont think we need any more of this, let it go. We have been over this a million times. Pagan had his first opportunity to pick up players last year, and again this coming draft. So lets see how he performs with some actual talent in the team rather than the collective buch of amatuers we had been struggling with. After he has been given a chance then maybe you have a point. But until then lets leave "eating our own" to the tigers and saints.

I fully agree. Some good things are starting to happen, so why doesn't everyone just take a cold shower and relax. Let's see what happens in the Draft and the PSD and all get behind the Club for our upward march into the finals.

P.s. Fraser Brown is supposedly chasing **** Pratt's son for President of the new Board to oust Smorgan. This seems a bit funny given that Sam Smorgan (Graham's father) is a close friend of **** Pratt.

 

[blues4flag]

Can't see Pagan going now. After all the positives of the last week, sacking the senior coach would only destabilize the club further IMO. We're getting back on track, the last thing we need is to sack Pagan and undergo more media speculation and scrutiny - espicially after Smorgan came out and said he would be coach next year. If he has a bad season next, than fine, replace him, but not now.

 

[btdg]

Pagan surely couldn't last beyond next year if we finish last again - and unless some of our young players improve very dramatically that is almost certain to happen.

It may not be fair. He really built a team at North from scratch, and hasn't yet had the chance to mould players in his own image - and his gameplan is so inflexible that it really only works with the 'right' players.

For me, I think he should have been sacked this year. I honestly believe if he stays another 3 years, all will be well as guys like Murphy, Walker, Gibbs start to develop into his core. But I just can't see him having an impact next year at all, or even the year after, and I can't see the club retaining him through another 2 wooden spoon years (I mean, has any coach in any sport in the world ever been retained through 4 consecutive last-placed finishes?) - so I don't see the point in keeping him this year. Dead Man Walking - and I feel sorry for him.

 

[len_jet]

Actually thats exactly what you wish to do.
Heard from?????
Oh, yes, those anonymous source are back. chelsworthgale = Carro


Pure Carro.......grab some irrelevant recent events to the point you are making (actually they refute the point you are making.......with both players re-signing), Ratten joins and states (again) that there is no issue, nor was there ever with Dennis......add in some fairy tale about SOS and of course.........Dennis must be gone.......


Denied by Dennis and Bret's manager (who would have pedalled this if it were even slightly true), and obviously denied by Brets actions in signing for three years (oh, yeah, on the proviso that Dennis is gone right?).....Wow.....that solid.........stop the press Carro



Wow, heck of a way to not sledge the progress.

If you haven't got anything nice to say..............

I don't know about anyone else but I'm convinced....Brown has got my vote................(thinking to himself.......so Browny is in the Book depository, Thornton on the Grassy noll, and Ratten on the overpass..............makes sense to me).

I knew there would be one idiot who takes things out of context and tries to throw his "hilarious" sarcasim to it... I think what you need to do is sit down look at this from all angles... in the end this is just an opinion... you dont find the fact that thornton signing a three year deal a little puzzeling... 4 days ago he wanted out, wouldnt you think he would of signed a one year deal and then gone for it again next year, why not nominate for the preseason draft and nominate his terms this way he could get say $500,000 for next year and then try again to get where he wants to go? Why the back flip by russell? neither brisbane nor essendon were showing any interest at all, all of a sudden port have him, he is home... what you got to realise is that this club and issue is bigger than you ego, get over yourself and understand that when is portrayed in the media isnt always gospel!

 

[navier-stokes equation]

I don't think CW is making this up

There have been numerous whispers recently about stuff going on behind the scenes

One only needs to have a look at the other Carlton forums out there - credible posters with a history of providing correct information before it's known to the public have been hinting of some recent developments that could lead to some significant changes.

 

[AlecDuncan]

The fact that walker came out and suggested that if he wasnt contracted that he would walk doesnt sit well with me.

What fact would that be?

 

[BlueWorld]

What fact would that be?

3AW rumour file.

Denied by his father.

I do believe French retired because he couldn't stand any more of Pagan.

 

[BlueWorld]

It is a virtual given that Pagan will not have his contract renewed after 2008. His age, alone, will count against him. The appointment of Crosisca and Ratten are a definite indication that a succession plan is being put in place. That doesn't mean Pagan is a dead man walking, it means that he will be given a further 2 years to work with our young list (his record indicates he is one of the best in the business with the kids).

If the last 2 premiership teams are any guide, younger coaches are going to become the way for all clubs. Neither Elshaug or Liberatore are looked at as potential senior coaches and Barry Mitchell's inability to get the Bullants to the line in the last 2 seasons has probably put a number of question marks over his coaching ability. It more and more points to Ratten & Crosisca as your potential replacements for Pagan and I am comfortable with that, as I am sure Pagan is as well. Let's not get caught up in conspiracy theories, instead let's keep things in perspective and start accepting that maybe the club has got some direction happening at last.

He'll be lucky to survive 2007- especially if we lose as many games as we lost this year.

 

[BlueWorld]

P.s. Fraser Brown is supposedly chasing **** Pratt's son for President of the new Board to oust Smorgan. This seems a bit funny given that Sam Smorgan (Graham's father) is a close friend of **** Pratt.

AFAIK the Pratts & Smorgons don't get on.

 

[BlueWorld]

Pagan surely couldn't last beyond next year if we finish last again - and unless some of our young players improve very dramatically that is almost certain to happen.

It may not be fair. He really built a team at North from scratch, and hasn't yet had the chance to mould players in his own image - and his gameplan is so inflexible that it really only works with the 'right' players.

For me, I think he should have been sacked this year. I honestly believe if he stays another 3 years, all will be well as guys like Murphy, Walker, Gibbs start to develop into his core. But I just can't see him having an impact next year at all, or even the year after, and I can't see the club retaining him through another 2 wooden spoon years (I mean, has any coach in any sport in the world ever been retained through 4 consecutive last-placed finishes?) - so I don't see the point in keeping him this year. Dead Man Walking - and I feel sorry for him.

Would have been sacked if the AFL hadn't intervened.

 

[AlecDuncan]

The fact that walker came out and suggested that if he wasnt contracted that he would walk doesnt sit well with me.

Are you really so fecking stupid that you would raise a final-trade-day rumour from a Hawthorn supporter to the level of "fact"?

If BF had a killfile, you'd be in it.

 

[WalkerTexasRanger]

I don't know about anyone else but I'm convinced....Brown has got my vote................(thinking to himself.......so Browny is in the Book depository, Thornton on the Grassy noll, and Ratten on the overpass..............makes sense to me).

Lol - the old 3 shooter crossfire eh 99? But who is the patsy? Who is the Lee Harvey Oswald? Mitchell seems to fit the bill.

 

[Monkeyboy]

Interesting reading fellas.
That Walker rumour/fact was pathetic. No credibility at all. You just cant drop in rubbish like that Chelmy, and then expect people to take the rest of your spiel seriously. Send the footage of Walker saying that to all your Blues fans??? can't? Doesn't exist...oh!

Whatever rumblings and behind the scene rumours, spills, sackings etc, that were in the wings a few weeks back, should and most likely will have disappeared. After the unified front in the paper a week back, plus with the events of this week, the Blues cannot afford to go backwards in any way, shape or form. The board knows this. The Fans are finally happy, a membership drive can begin.

Brown is happy that ratten is aboard. The list looks strong. The coach has won back respect.

There will be no changes at Carlton.

 

[Pafloyul]

I'm by no means trying to sledge the progress the club has made over the last week

…progress?

I say we maintained the status quo but how is it progress? Unless you are referring to the fact that we managed not to trade away one of our lower draft picks for a has-been.

 

[crackers111taz]

The odds of SOS joining Carlton are very slim,rumour has it that he has accepted the assisstant job at Saint Kilda.....

 

[Moss Rocket]

…progress?

I say we maintained the status quo but how is it progress? Unless you are referring to the fact that we managed not to trade away one of our lower draft picks for a has-been.

Yes progress. Able to sign 4 kids to long term deals. Nothing easy about keeping a young list under contract, particularly with the off field dramas and poor on field form.
Just ask Brisbane how they are finding it. Or Bombers with McPhee.
Great progress.
Also signing on Ratten as an assistant. Great progress.

 

[Fehring]

Personally I can't see Pagan lasting till the end of 07 unless we have an exceptional season next year (8 wins+)

How it warms the heart of a Saints fan to see that 8 wins is the new benchmark for "exceptional" at Carlton.

I have, however, been having some very uneasy thoughts. In particular, I am delighted to see that Thornton and Russell re-signed and that everything is settling down at Carlton. What's wrong with me? I need help.

 

[SurreyBlue]

The odds of SOS joining Carlton are very slim,rumour has it that he has accepted the assisstant job at Saint Kilda.....

I am really starting to get very annoyed with SOS.

 

[Bluebear]

I knew there would be one idiot who takes things out of context and tries to throw his "hilarious" sarcasim to it... I think what you need to do is sit down look at this from all angles... in the end this is just an opinion...

to convene what I have heard and to portray some suspicions that I have...............just to clarify source would be an ex carlton board memeber/life member, compliations of reports from SEN, 3AW, herald sun and other big footy threads. Yes not the most reliable besides the 1st one but when you think about the theories their not far fetched at all.

So which is it........your opinion, or this hotch-potch of ridiculous sources?
If it was clear in the outset that is was your opinion I would have laughed my arse off and left you alone.
The fact that you attempted to add credibility to your "theory" with a joke of a justification as above, sorry but I can't sit back and watch this sort of thing go unchallenged.

you dont find the fact that thornton signing a three year deal a little puzzeling... 4 days ago he wanted out,

Sure, but what is the likely explanation. I won't pretend to understand what happens in player contract negotiations, but I've seen enough of them to know that you can't always (if ever) beleieve what is reported during them. Lappin ring any bells? This is my opinion:
4 days ago he wanted a better deal.........offered by Hawthorn. If he just wanted a fresh start why only nominate the Hawks?
Answer, IMO most of the statements made by his manager were negotiating ploys, trying to force our hand to either up the offer above what the Hawks offerred, or to force a trade. He did a great job in getting the best deal for Bret (and himself).
Follow your own advice from below......don't believe everything you read.

............Why the back flip by russell? neither brisbane nor essendon were showing any interest at all, all of a sudden port have him, he is home

You are privy to a lot of inside info here Chels........wasn't aware that either club had made any such statements.......but let's entertain your idea for just a minute.
Russell hates the coach, wants to go home, is gauranteed such by the PSD (in your opinion), and does a backflip because...........Carlton will have a new board and new coach following huge amounts of in fighting and board takeovers........or that Pagan will get sacked during 2007.
Is that about it? Hmmmm it would make me want to hang around.

Why would you stay based on that? Think about it for a minute. Go home to play for Port and be with family.......or stay on the off chance the coach and board get sacked and the new coach thinks I'm any good.
C'mon Chels.

IMHO Russell wanted to go home, but it was not a huge deal. He wasn't desperate to go home. When he saw that Port offerred only a 3rd round pick the Blues got in his ear to say "mate this is what they think of you.......reckon you'll get more game time there or here next year?" They then upped the offer which, because he doesn't hate the club or the coach, he took.
If he hated either, the contract would have been unacceptable and he would have walked.

... what you got to realise is that this club and issue is bigger than you ego, get over yourself and understand that when is portrayed in the media isnt always gospel!

I understand the club is bigger than my ego........I'm not the one big noting myself on this board making up joke threads supported by dubious sources..............As for the media, i was one of few during the post seaon frenzy calling for calm with everyone running around screaming everytime the media reported a new rumour.........I still look with scepticism at what happened last week, but I will stop short of inventing sources to put some credibility to my opinions. My ego is in check.........what about yours?

chelsworthgale[/B]] "just to clarify source would be an ex carlton board memeber/life member, compliations of reports from SEN, 3AW, herald sun and other big footy threads. Yes not the most reliable besides the 1st one but when you think about the theories their not far fetched at all.

Their?
Yes....they're far fetched.........
Will Pagan survive? I don't know. IMO I think if we are less than 2-3 wins midway through next year then he may be in trouble, same goes for less than 6 wins at season's end (barring key injuries to Fev, Red, Murp, Gibbs etc).
Is anything that has happened in the past week related to Pagan leaving, or the likely board upheaval........no, not in my opinion.

And yes WTR..............Mitchell will be the patsy.

 

[Bluebear]

I'm by no means trying to sledge the progress the club has made over the last week, it has been fantastic but remember that hard work was done my malouf and grant williams, pagan's name hasn't been raised at all...

Thoughts?

The homesick 19-year-old South Australian's decision, after a coffee and 90-minute discussion with coach Denis Pagan earlier in the day.......
"Denis got Jordan excited about Carlton again," said Russell's manager, Rick Olarenshaw
quoted in:
http://www.theage.com.au/realfooty/news/afl/blues-keep-youngsters-welcome-back-oldie/2006/10/16/1160850870890.html

More holes than swiss cheese, but the magic bullet theory is still an official explanation...............

 

[navier-stokes equation]

…progress?

I say we maintained the status quo but how is it progress? Unless you are referring to the fact that we managed not to trade away one of our lower draft picks for a has-been.

The nuffys have swallowed the fluff up and now the board look a million bucks