St kilda need a full re-build.

[NeXus_Helen]

If Lyon doesn't start re-building asap he is a fool. We must trade a heap of players for the highest possible draft picks. We must also pick the eyes out of the National Draft and stay away from the Pre-season Draft, unlesss there is another Nick Stevens come up.

Any player 28 and over should be up for trade, providing we get a good return. We need to have a new core group of players come through together. This will take time of course, hence the reason that anyone over 28 should be traded. Then in 4-5 years time, while Roo and Kosi and Dal and Goddard and Fisher and etc etc are still young enough, we will again challenge for the flag. See table below.......

Player
D.O.B.
Action
Steve Baker
22/05/1980
Trade for any pick under 30, if no takers, keep.
Jason Blake
15/03/1981
Trade for any pick under 30, if no takers, keep.
Raphael Clarke
24/09/1985
Trade for any pick under 30, if no takers, keep.
Xavier Clarke
28/09/1983
Trade for any pick under 25, if no takers, keep.
Aaron Fiora
19/04/1981
Trade for any pick under 45, if no takers, de-list.
Michael Gardiner
05/07/1979
Trade for any pick, if no takers, de-list.
Fraser Gehrig
03/03/1976
Retire.
Robert Harvey
21/08/1971
Retire.
Lenny Hayes
14/01/1980
Trade for any pick under 20, if no takers, keep.
Max Hughton
02/09/1976
Retire.
Steven King
22/11/1978
Retire.
Stephen Milne
08/03/1980
Trade for any pick under 30, if no takers, keep.
Michael Rix
01/08/1981
Trade for any pick, if no takers, de-list.

 

[no orange peeler]

You want to get ris of your best and most inspirational player. he is the type of guy you need to keep around the club to teach younger players how to act as an AFl footballer both on and off the field. silly comment to want to get rid of Lenny Hayes

 

[Squizz]

Some of Thommo's best work in that list.

You really think Blake and Raph are worth a pick under 30? Ditto Fiora under 45?

Other clubs would want a super deal to part with any picks under 50 this year. I think it's going to be a quiet year at the table.

Trading Michael Gardiner for any pick is just dumb logic. The bloke is just hitting his straps.

I think they have good security, so I am comforted you will be no-where near the trading rooms during draft week.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Using this system we would get trades from our good players while we would retain the players no-one else wanted. When other teams trade they generally want to gain from the deal.

You have only talked about our players who play regularly , our list has several other players who never get a game.

What is the most number of draft picks a team has ever made, counting trades?

 

[TheWiseOne]

Lenny Hayes
14/01/1980
Trade for any pick under 20, if no takers, keep.

Doubt very highly he will get traded.. but if he did you would want

2 first round draft picks 8-16 or 1 top 5 draft pick.. But like i said it would be like Hawthorn trading Hodge.. It will not happen

 

[dg102]

I kind of agree with what your saying. Sometimes I think we need to rebuild but then again, we probably wont get much draft picks for most of our guys either. We definatly need 2 or 3 really pacey onballers in the middle. Maybe we could strike a deal with essendon who seem to have too much pace and not enough key position players. Kosi for Davey and a pick or something like that. I think essendon and carlton would be interested in Raph Clarke too.

 

[HoldenMCaulfield]

I agree with Squizzy that we will see a very quiet trade week. No team will risk their last real draft picks for a few years for anyone but a star player.

You say that we should keep Baker (will not go for sub 30 pick), Blake (will not go for sub 30 pick), Raph (will not go for sub 30 pick), X (will not go for sub 25 pick) and Milne (will not go for sub 30 pick).

Hayes would probably go for a sub 20 pick - despite not being the youngest anymore, he would qualify as a "star player". I would also expect M Gardiner to find a new home for "any" pick.

You are further asking for Gehrig, Harvey, Hudghton and King to retire.

Finally, you are saying that Fiora (will not go for sub 45 pick) and possibly Rix (not sure if anyone would trade for him - possibly those needing a backup ruckman) should be delisted.

Well done, in essence you are giving away our currently best player (I can't think of any other word than "stupid" - even for your standards - in that context), will delist two players and will rely on four other players retiring. Not really a "full rebuild", is it ?

Next year will not be the right time to start for a "full rebuild" (very limited trading available), but certainly a possibility to develop the good young players we have (and picked up with our own draft picks next year).

The "full rebuild" would, in my opinion, whether we (and Riewoldt himself) like it or not, probably require trading Queensland's Nick Riewoldt (and possibly Armitage if he continues to improve) to the Gold Coast for a number of their low draft picks and reshape the team with some serious delistings of players who would not fit into the "new St Kilda".

 

[NeXus_Helen]

Some of Thommo's best work in that list.

You really think Blake and Raph are worth a pick under 30? Ditto Fiora under 45?

Other clubs would want a super deal to part with any picks under 50 this year. I think it's going to be a quiet year at the table.

Trading Michael Gardiner for any pick is just dumb logic. The bloke is just hitting his straps.

I think they have good security, so I am comforted you will be no-where near the trading rooms during draft week.

Trading Michael Gardner is not dumb Squizzy1970, I'll tell you why. He is almost 29 and by the time St kilda will be a serious challenger again Gardiner will be retired. A full re-build means that you are planning and putting together a team that will be ready to challenge in 4 to 5 years. In the mean time you either trade or de-list players who will not be around in 5 years time and replace them with the highest possible draft picks. You also try to trade/de-list players who are either not good enough or too injury prone.

Lenny Hayes is a sensational player, I'm not denying that, but at the start of the 2009 season he will be 29. If he was traded at the end of this year for pick 18 for example, that would be a great result for the team, and probably for him too.

If Ross Lyon does't make these tough calls and only makes minor changes at the end of this season we will continue to finish around the 9th - 12th mark for another 3 or 4 years. That would be the worst result possible. We need to bottom out so we can get in some high draf picks in and get 75 senior games into them asap while Roo and Kosi and Dal and Goddard and Fisher and etc etc are still playing and near their peak.

 

[Sainters66]

Trading Michael Gardner is not dumb Squizzy1970, I'll tell you why. He is almost 29 and by the time St kilda will be a serious challenger again Gardiner will be retired. A full re-build means that you are planning and putting together a team that will be ready to challenge in 4 to 5 years. In the mean time you either trade or de-list players who will not be around in 5 years time and replace them with the highest possible draft picks. You also try to trade/de-list players who are either not good enough or too injury prone.

Lenny Hayes is a sensational player, I'm not denying that, but at the start of the 2009 season he will be 29. If he was traded at the end of this year for pick 18 for example, that would be a great result for the team, and probably for him too.

If Ross Lyon does't make these tough calls and only makes minor changes at the end of this season we will continue to finish around the 9th - 12th mark for another 3 or 4 years. That would be the worst result possible. We need to bottom out so we can get in some high draf picks in and get 75 senior games into them asap while Roo and Kosi and Dal and Goddard and Fisher and etc etc are still playing and near their peak.

You're a god damn fool wom,an. get off................

 

[siamang]

Trade Lenny? That's probably the dumbest thing i've ever read on here, you ____wit.

 

[subanwallan]

if hayes gets traded i will change clubs because then i know i am going for the wrong club because at the moment Lenny is my tip for the B & F this year trade lenny hayes wat a stupid idea he is a star and who knows he could be a bit like robert harvey end up playing till his 35-36

 

[ChrisFooty]

Very dumb. You do realise no club would trade pick 30 or under for Jason Blake and Milne. Likewise for Fiora, not even worth pick 50.

Trading away Lenny Hayes or Micheal Gardner is dumb. Two players actually pulling their weight currently.

No one will offer pick 25 or under for Xavier Clarke. Far too injury prone. Only the Gold Coast and Western Sydney sides would consider it (as they do need senior players) They are not coming in the competition yet.

 

[NeXus_Helen]

So if most of you think my idea is stupid then you must be happy with the way the Sants are going?

 

[NeilElvis]

I understand your thinking Nexus but Lenny is untouchable IMO & one of those blokes that by trading you were severely effect the 'fabric' of the club.

I think we need to start planning for 2009/2010/2011 now by getting games into the kids & leaving those who have had their chance at Casey.

I do agree that we need to trade into the upper reaches of the draft & hopefully have a couple of top 10 picks and maybe another two inside the top 25. To do this we need to roll the dice & take a risk.

Outside of the following group, I'd entertain any offer;

Hayes
Ball
Dal Santo
Riewoldt
Goddard
S.Fisher
Gilbert
Armitage & the rest of the 'kids'. I'd be inclined to keep Gram as well as I still think he has a huge upside if the coach finally wakes up & realises that Gram is not a backman's plumber's crack.

That leaves blokes like Kosi & Montagna to headline a group of players who would be traded for the right price.

Who knows an Essendon may like the idea of Kosi amongst their fleet of quick mids & we may be able to add a Daniel Rich straight into the midfield. I love the bloke but he's just not come on.

We can rejuvenate this list pretty quickly through the acquisition of youth and lots of it. The core is there but the back ups are ordinary, lack skill, slow or all of the above.

Trade astutely, draft intelligently and this can turn around quickly. As for the coach, well if he's here to stay then he needs to new supporting cast urgently.

 

[ChrisFooty]

Kosi on the trading table. Clubs will offer something worthwhile, as big man are not easy to find. Just is not playing anywhere near his potential at St.kilda. Very sad to see.

 

[The Punter]

That would be ripping out the heart and soul of the side. It wouldn't matter who you replaced them with, because the other players wouldn't know if they were Arthur or Martha. The club would be decimated, and we would probably begin the slow plunge towards death.

While I certainly think there are some needs that need to be filled at the end of the year, and maybe some players who could have some currency at the trade table (even this year), we just need to draft 5-6 quality players and inject some youth and speed. Hopefully Brad Howard, Jack Steven & Elijay Connors will provide some of this as well, being further developed.

 

[HoldenMCaulfield]

So if most of you think my idea is stupid then you must be happy with the way the Sants are going?

The world is not that black and white !

Yes - your idea to trade two of our current best players (Hayes / M Gardiner) is stupid and your idea to further delist just two players (Fiora / Rix) and to retire four players (Harvey, Gehrig, Hudghton, King) is not very spectacular and just more or less describes the natural course of things to come in the next years.

No - I am not happy with the way the Saints are going at the moment, but your idea would not change anything but possibly increase our collection of wooden spoons and make us the laughing stock of the league by unnecessarily trading our best player for very little in return.

Btw : I am not saying in my earlier post that we must trade Riewoldt. All I am saying is that if we really want the "full rebuild" during the next years with the two new teams coming in, this would possibly be our only alternative to obtain low draft picks. My personal belief is that the current team is a lot better than it performs at the moment and that it lacks confidence and spirit (Geelong were similarily slow and underperforming just two years ago - they still have the same core team and the same coach and are, with only the Bulldogs and possibly Hawthorn coming in close at the moment, the best team in the AFL today).

 

[Sir Robert]

A full re-build is not necessary. I hope you can see this Nexus and stop bringing it up. A turnover of underperforming players (similar to the Pies) however is definitely going to happen. Lyon has already indicated this. ANd it started last year with Brooks, Watts, Sweeney and Raymond.

Most of the players you mentioned are not tradeable... Either because they are too important to us going forward (remember we need to at least be competitive to attract members and sponsors), or because they are worth nothing.

Hayes, King, M Gardiner, and Hudghton must stay even tho they are over 28 at seasons end. These blokes are probably in our top 10 in the B&F this year, and two of them are the heart and soul of the team.

R Clarke, X Clarke, Blake, L Fish, Howard (has been underperforming for such a high pick in a superdraft), Fiora and Rix all should be worried come years end, as I can only see Harvey (sob) and Gehrig retiring. And Attard, Eddy and McQalter are really pushing for a spot on the senior list.

Montagna (passenger) and Kosi (great bloke) are our two best tradeable options, and hopefully could snag a top 20 and top 10 pick respectively.

 

[Atomboy]

A full re-build is not necessary. I hope you can see this Nexus and stop bringing it up. A turnover of underperforming players (similar to the Pies) however is definitely going to happen. Lyon has already indicated this. ANd it started last year with Brooks, Watts, Sweeney and Raymond.

Most of the players you mentioned are not tradeable... Either because they are too important to us going forward (remember we need to at least be competitive to attract members and sponsors), or because they are worth nothing.

Hayes, King, M Gardiner, and Hudghton must stay even tho they are over 28 at seasons end. These blokes are probably in our top 10 in the B&F this year, and two of them are the heart and soul of the team.

R Clarke, X Clarke, Blake, L Fish, Howard (has been underperforming for such a high pick in a superdraft), Fiora and Rix all should be worried come years end, as I can only see Harvey (sob) and Gehrig retiring. And Attard, Eddy and McQalter are really pushing for a spot on the senior list.

Montagna (passenger) and Kosi (great bloke) are our two best tradeable options, and hopefully could snag a top 20 and top 10 pick respectively.

Nope, I actually agree with Hells Bells on this one. We need to turn-over the list quite significantly in the next 2 years to take advantage of the drafts before the Gold Coast and West Sydney teams come in.

From 2010-2012, there will be NOTHING on offer in these drafts due to the concessions the new clubs will get. NOTHING !!!.

If you are finishing down the bottom of the ladder in these years, you are effectively consigning your club to being there for 3-5 years.

Given there will be 1-2 Melbourne teams up for the chop at this time, we do not want to be in the cross-sights as an underperforming side. Anyone think the current list will be getting us in the finals in 3 years time ?

While Kosi and Montie would be the only players we have with trade value, I think we also need to get rid of the dead wood that just won't cut it at AFL level.

This includes:

Fiora
R Clarke
Ferguson
L Fisher
C Gardiner

These guys are taking up space on our list and salary cap and are giving precious little in return. If we can get picks for them, all well and good, but I would prefer to get a bunch of youngsters with fresh enthusiasm.

In all likelihood, the above guys will be chopped in 2-3 years time and we will be trying to re-draft for them in possibly the worst drafts in AFL history. We need to be trying to get adequate replacements for them now while we are in a reasonable draft !!.

Players like Gardiner, King and Max should be allowed to see out the course of their careers because they are costing us minimal cash, and in all reality we don't have any current replacements for them.

I really fear for the future of our club if we can't get the next 2 drafting periods right. There are bigger issues than challenging for a flag in the next 5 years facing our club.....

 

[Sir Robert]

Nope, I actually agree with Hells Bells on this one. We need to turn-over the list quite significantly in the next 2 years to take advantage of the drafts before the Gold Coast and West Sydney teams come in.

From 2010-2012, there will be NOTHING on offer in these drafts due to the concessions the new clubs will get. NOTHING !!!.

If you are finishing down the bottom of the ladder in these years, you are effectively consigning your club to being there for 3-5 years.

Given there will be 1-2 Melbourne teams up for the chop at this time, we do not want to be in the cross-sights as an underperforming side. Anyone think the current list will be getting us in the finals in 3 years time ?

While Kosi and Montie would be the only players we have with trade value, I think we also need to get rid of the dead wood that just won't cut it at AFL level.

This includes:

Fiora
R Clarke
Ferguson
L Fisher
C Gardiner

These guys are taking up space on our list and salary cap and are giving precious little in return. If we can get picks for them, all well and good, but I would prefer to get a bunch of youngsters with fresh enthusiasm.

In all likelihood, the above guys will be chopped in 2-3 years time and we will be trying to re-draft for them in possibly the worst drafts in AFL history. We need to be trying to get adequate replacements for them now while we are in a reasonable draft !!.

Players like Gardiner, King and Max should be allowed to see out the course of their careers because they are costing us minimal cash, and in all reality we don't have any current replacements for them.

I really fear for the future of our club if we can't get the next 2 drafting periods right. There are bigger issues than challenging for a flag in the next 5 years facing our club.....

You have mentioned cutting the same guys I mentioned... However getting rid of these players isn't what I would call a full rebuild. It's effectively just culling the list.

Nexus's first post was more like a full rebuild and that would cripple us as we'd get nothing for all those players bar Lenny Hayes who is irreplaceable!

 

[NeXus_Helen]

A full re-build is not necessary. I hope you can see this Nexus and stop bringing it up. A turnover of underperforming players (similar to the Pies) however is definitely going to happen. Lyon has already indicated this. ANd it started last year with Brooks, Watts, Sweeney and Raymond.

Most of the players you mentioned are not tradeable... Either because they are too important to us going forward (remember we need to at least be competitive to attract members and sponsors), or because they are worth nothing.

Hayes, King, M Gardiner, and Hudghton must stay even tho they are over 28 at seasons end. These blokes are probably in our top 10 in the B&F this year, and two of them are the heart and soul of the team.

R Clarke, X Clarke, Blake, L Fish, Howard (has been underperforming for such a high pick in a superdraft), Fiora and Rix all should be worried come years end, as I can only see Harvey (sob) and Gehrig retiring. And Attard, Eddy and McQalter are really pushing for a spot on the senior list.

Montagna (passenger) and Kosi (great bloke) are our two best tradeable options, and hopefully could snag a top 20 and top 10 pick respectively.

I hear what you're saying, but I don't agree. We need to be ruthless and if that means we plunge down to the bottom for 3 years, so be it. What's the point of taking the softly softly approach and finishing 12th, 13th and 14th over the next 3 years. We may as well finish 12th, last and last, get the best young kids and get heaps of games into the kids we have. Lenny Hayes is a great player but unfortunately he will never play in a premiership for St kilda.

 

[Atomboy]

You have mentioned cutting the same guys I mentioned... However getting rid of these players isn't what I would call a full rebuild. It's effectively just culling the list.

Nexus's first post was more like a full rebuild and that would cripple us as we'd get nothing for all those players bar Lenny Hayes who is irreplaceable!

Well when you look at what we would be turning over this year in players according to my approach it is pretty much a rebuild:

Kosi
Montie
G-Train (ret)
Harvs (ret)
Fiora
R Clarke
Ferguson
L Fisher
C Gardiner

It's 9 senior players which is almost 25% of our list. Pretty major.

When you look further ahead in 2 years time, you've also probably got the likes of Baker, Max and King retiring.

We can't reaplce all these guys in 1 year, so the process has to start pretty early.

But yes, trading Hayes is dumb and no-one will touch M Gardiner with a barge-pole at age 30.

 

[NeXus_Helen]

You have mentioned cutting the same guys I mentioned... However getting rid of these players isn't what I would call a full rebuild. It's effectively just culling the list.

Nexus's first post was more like a full rebuild and that would cripple us as we'd get nothing for all those players bar Lenny Hayes who is irreplaceable!

If you had read my post correctly you would have seen that I said if we did not get what we wanted then we would keep or de-list that particular player!!!!! Read the whole post Sir Robert!!!!!!

 

[SaintsSeptember]

So if most of you think my idea is stupid then you must be happy with the way the Sants are going?

This is an excellent example of flawed logic, probably inflated by an overactive ego. Just because YOU have and idea does not mean it is the best idea.

I am not happy with the way the Saints are going. You have a solution.
I don't think that your solution is the only solution.

a) It only makes sense to retire Harvey and Max before they are ready, if all of your other trades come about and we need room on the list.
There are plenty of passengers on the team that cannot be traded and can be delisted before we need these two spots.

b) You assume that StKilda will be able to develope a good team from the young players. I have serious concerns about the current coaching staff to give the correct training to a young side. They don't even be able to maintain the skills of a group of players in their prime.

I agree that the recruitment needs to focus on young players with potential. I also agree that trades offers for good players should be considered on their merits.

If we had enough new recruits I would not be unhappy to see the following players de-listed to make space. ( Or traded - as if )
Fiora, R Clarke, Dempster, C Gardner, L Fisher, McGuire, Blake, Gwilt and probably ( although I haven't seen much of them ) McQualter, Fergasus, and Allen. If you can find more than 11 recruits feel free to push the oldies into retirement.

 

[NeXus_Helen]

This is an excellent example of flawed logic, probably inflated by an overactive ego. Just because YOU have and idea does not mean it is the best idea.

I am not happy with the way the Saints are going. You have a solution.
I don't think that your solution is the only solution.

a) It only makes sense to retire Harvey and Max before they are ready, if all of your other trades come about and we need room on the list.
There are plenty of passengers on the team that cannot be traded and can be delisted before we need these two spots.

b) You assume that StKilda will be able to develope a good team from the young players. I have serious concerns about the current coaching staff to give the correct training to a young side. They don't even be able to maintain the skills of a group of players in their prime.

I agree that the recruitment needs to focus on young players with potential. I also agree that trades offers for good players should be considered on their merits.

If we had enough new recruits I would not be unhappy to see the following players de-listed to make space. ( Or traded - as if )
Fiora, R Clarke, Dempster, C Gardner, L Fisher, McGuire, Blake, Gwilt and probably ( although I haven't seen much of them ) McQualter, Fergasus, and Allen. If you can find more than 11 recruits feel free to push the oldies into retirement.

It's only my opinion SaintsSeptember, which I have formed after watching our team fail for 37 years!!!! That's right, my earliest memory of St kilda is the 1971 Grand Final... I was 8. I've seen 5 year plans come and go and quite frankly I am sick and tired of watching us fail. If it means burning a few players and or upsetting some of them, bad luck. I want to see a premiership just like all.....repeat ALL my friends have. The time has come to make all the harsh decisions because if we don't then I reckon our club is gone!!!!! It will only be a matter of time before they start on the Saints as a relocation candidate again. If we have to be in the bottom 4 for the next 4 years to grab the best available draft picks then so be it. Do it now while we are not in debt because later will be too late.