Stats questions

[35Daicos]

Most VFL/AFL premierships as a player and/or coach. Have I got this right?

Barassi 10
McHale 9
Matthews 8
Sheedy 8

Norm Smith 10
Ron Barassi 10
Jock McHale 9
Leigh Matthews 8
Frank 'Checker' Hughes 7
Kevin Sheedy 7
Michael Tuck 7 (player only).

 

[footyfan1978]

Wow, so the legend equalled by the Fox.
I don't think there is a football person I admire more than Ron Barassi.

 

[emuboy]

To date, there has never been an AFL/VFL player with a surname starting with X.

Does anyone know of any players from the VFA/VFL, TAC Cup, SANFL, WAFL, TFL or NEAFL who had a surname beginning with X?

 

[Goggin Our Best]

More of a trivia one

Has there been a situation where 2 players playing in the same era for 2 different teams have the identical name

I can remember in the 1960s there was Don McKenzie of Essendon ( a ruckman) and there was Don McKenzie of Footscray ( half forward flanker )

 

[Gibbsy]

More of a trivia one

Has there been a situation where 2 players playing in the same era for 2 different teams have the identical name

I can remember in the 1960s there was Don McKenzie of Essendon ( a ruckman) and there was Don McKenzie of Footscray ( half forward flanker )

Tom Lynch right now

 

[35Daicos]

There's two Josh Kennedy's also at the moment. Two Mitchell/Mitch Brown's. Two Sam Reid's.

Nathan D. Brown (Melbourne) and Nathan G. Brown (Richmond) both played in 2007. Nathan J. Brown (Collingwood) only debuted in 2008, but was on the list in 2007. I'm sure there's plenty of other examples.

There's the two Scott Thompson's currently playing as well, with Scott D. of North Melbourne, Scott of Adelaide doesn't seem to have a middle name!

 

[RedmanWasHere]

There's also 2 Sam Reid's and once upon a time, there were 2 John Murphy's and 2 Ian Nankervis's.

Not sure what the record is though.

 

[emuboy]

There were two Michael Gardiners playing in the late 1990s and both were recruited from the WAFL. There was the Michael Gardiner from the Claremont Tigers who played for the West Coast Eagles and later St Kilda, and another Michael Gardiner who was recruited from the Subiaco Lions by Collingwood and who played for the Magpies in 1998 & 1999.

 

[worbod]

There were two Peter Welsh's during the 1970s; one at Hawthorn and one at Footscray.

 

[35Daicos]

Mark M. Williams (Collingwood/Brisbane) and Mark P. Williams (Carlton/Footscray) played at the same time, two Don Williams' played in 1959.

Probably the most 'famous' example in recent times would be the two Mark Dwyer's. Both played for Fitzroy and St Kilda, adding to the fun. Mark 'Mick' Dwyer played for St Kilda (1986-1995) and Fitzroy (1996), Mark Dwyer for Fitzroy (1986-1987) and St Kilda (1988). The two even played one game together at St Kilda in 1988. The one who played most of his career with the Saints was usually referred to as Mick.

There's obviously quite a lot of these cases. It would be handy to see an actual list of such names.

 

[Rourke]

Not exactly the same, but North Melbourne had both Benjamin Warren and Warren Benjamin on its list for the 2009 & 2010 seasons. Precursor to Ray Farren confusion

 

[emuboy]

Mark M. Williams (Collingwood/Brisbane) and Mark P. Williams (Carlton/Footscray) played at the same time, two Don Williams' played in 1959.

Probably the most 'famous' example in recent times would be the two Mark Dwyer's. Both played for Fitzroy and St Kilda, adding to the fun. Mark 'Mick' Dwyer played for St Kilda (1986-1995) and Fitzroy (1996), Mark Dwyer for Fitzroy (1986-1987) and St Kilda (1988). The two even played one game together at St Kilda in 1988. The one who played most of his career with the Saints was usually referred to as Mick.

There's obviously quite a lot of these cases. It would be handy to see an actual list of such names.

One interesting stat about the two Mark Dwyers is that Mark Dwyer played for Fitzroy in a Round 19 1986 game against St Kilda in which the Lions trounced the Saints 24.16-160 to 11.9-75, while in Round 4 1996 Mark 'Mick' Dwyer played for Fitzroy against St Kilda in a game that saw the Saints have a big 24.16-160 to 11.9-75 win over the Lions.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

One interesting stat about the two Mark Dwyers is that Mark Dwyer played for Fitzroy in a Round 19 1986 game against St Kilda in which the Lions trounced the Saints 24.16-160 to 11.9-75, while in Round 4 1996 Mark 'Mick' Dwyer played for Fitzroy against St Kilda in a game that saw the Saints have a big 24.16-160 to 11.9-75 win over the Lions.

Ripping numerical get.

Here's what I like also.

2 pairs of:

24 goals.
16 behinds.
A score of 160.

11 goals.
9 behinds.
A score of 75.

IIRC those 2 games are the only games where there's been a final score of 160-75.

 

[the croucher]

Anyone know when the "consecutive games" figure for Jack Titus was reduced from the oft-quoted 204 to the correct total of 202 ?

 

[35Daicos]

Anyone know when the "consecutive games" figure for Jack Titus was reduced from the oft-quoted 204 to the correct total of 202 ?

The 2007 AFL Record Season Guide shows 204. The 2008 edition of the book (like the 2015 one) shows 202.

The most recent edition (2014) of Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers still says he once held the record with 204 consecutive games.

 

[the croucher]

The 2007 AFL Record Season Guide shows 204. The 2008 edition of the book (like the 2015 one) shows 202.

The most recent edition (2014) of Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers still says he once held the record with 204 consecutive games.

Thanks.

Pity the Season Guide has so many (30+) errors in the rest of the "100+ consecutive games" list, of which the 169 claimed for John Schultz is the most laughable. Most consec he played for Footscray is high-30s I think, certainly less than 40 anyway.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

What's the average height of current players per guernsey number?

One would assume that No. 12 would be very tall.
Likewise No. 20.

 

[35Daicos]

Thanks.

Pity the Season Guide has so many (30+) errors in the rest of the "100+ consecutive games" list, of which the 169 claimed for John Schultz is the most laughable. Most consec he played for Footscray is high-30s I think, certainly less than 40 anyway.

This probably doesn't tell you anything you aren't aware of (I assumed the discrepancies related mostly to players missing club games due to state games), but some may find it interesting, nonetheless:-

http://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2014-04-30/murphys-rein-in-richardson-clan

Footnote: In December 2012, The AFL, in its wisdom, officially declared its Team of the 20th Century half-back Bruce Doull the keeper of Carlton’s consecutive games record of 162, despite the fact that two matches in that block were Victorian state games.

A ruling was first sought from the League the previous July when Kade Simpson’s run of 158 matches for the Blues was abruptly ended at the MCG by way of a vicious shirtfront, which left him with concussion and a broken jaw.

At the time the Editor of the AFL Record Season Guide Michael Lovett was quoted as saying that with the planning for next season’s publication looming, “we’ll take it to football operations to get a determination”.

“There’s more than 20 players affected across the board in terms of state representation,” Lovett said at the time. “They include Footscray’s John Schulz, who played more than 100 consecutive games, eight of which included Victorian games.”

Back then, Lovett did not want to pre-empt the ruling, but appreciated the argument “that if you were good enough to represent your state you obviously would have been good enough to represent your club”.

And so it has come to bear for Doull, the Blues’ four-time premiership player, four-time best and fairest and Norm Smith Medallist, who was unavailable for club games against Melbourne in Round 4, 1976 and Fitzroy in the 13th Round of 1977.

Lovett said that in consultation with League operations, Doull’s consecutive club games record would stand because the aforementioned matches were staged on the same weekend as the respective state fixtures, both involving the Big V and WA at Subiaco Oval.

John Murphy indicated this week that his “lost” games were yet to be returned.

 

[Gibbsy]

I don't know what side of the fence you guys stand on for that issue, but to me counting games that weren't actually played is just ridiculous, no matter the argument.

 

[worbod]

I don't know what side of the fence you guys stand on for that issue, but to me counting games that weren't actually played is just ridiculous, no matter the argument.

How can the interstate games be counted in the consecutive games records when they no longer count in the players' overall games totals? It's a bizarre as a kick-in after a behind from fullback not being registered as a kick.

 

[worbod]

I have another question for one of the stats geniuses on this board; how many examples are there of a team beating its opponent by the same margin in successive matches played between the two, whether in the same season or the next season?

I am aware of two. In the 2006 Grand Final, the West Coast Eagles defeated the Sydney Swans by 1 point, and the Eagles again defeated the Swans by a point in Round 1 2007. Years earlier, Fitzroy thrashed Richmond by 59 points at the MCG in Round 20 1991, and in the next meeting between the Tigers and Lions in Round 8 1992, Fitzroy again won by 59 points.

I make it 144 instances to the end of 2015 where a team beat its opponent by the same margin in successive matches played between the two, whether in the same season or the next season. In addition, there are 3 instances of two teams playing draws in successive matches. This involves Essendon and Fitzroy doing it twice, and Brisbane Lions and Port Adelaide doing it the other time.

Among the 144 instances, there are three occasions of one team beating its opponent by the same margin in three successive matches.

Hawthorn d Collingwood by 22 points: round 9, 1982; round 19, 1982; round 5, 1983
West Coast d Collingwood by 36 points: round 3, 1999; round 18, 1999; round 11, 2000
Port Adelaide d Adelaide by 8 points: round 18, 2001; round 5, 2002; round 20, 2002


The highest margin repeated in two successive matches between the same two teams is:

Hawthorn d South Melbourne by 79 points: round 3, 1974; round 15, 1974

There are only two other instances of a 10 goal margin being repeated.

 

[worbod]

Some other notes on one team beating its opponent by the same margin in successive matches:

• In round 5, 1980, Carlton defeated Melbourne by 29 points and Collingwood defeated Essendon by 4 points. Later, in round 15, 1980, Carlton again defeated Melbourne by 29 points and Collingwood again defeated Essendon by 4 points.
• Geelong defeated Melbourne by 33 points in rounds 2 and 13 of 1967. Next season in 1968, Geelong defeated Melbourne by 7 points in rounds 5 and 16. In 1969 one straight kick was the difference between Geelong completing a unique hat trick over Melbourne. They defeated Melbourne by 27 points in round 1 and then by 21 points in round 12.
• Hawthorn defeated Fitzroy by 56 points in both matches they played in 1977. Then in 1978 Fitzroy defeated Hawthorn by 1 point in both their matches. Hawthorn and Fitzroy played each other in rounds 5 and 16 in both 1977 and 1978.
• In round 12, 1904 and round 2, 1905 South Melbourne defeated Melbourne by 6 points with identical scores: firstly 11.7 (73) to 9.13 (67) and then 11.7 (73) to 10.7 (67).
• A similar thing occurred in round 16, 1954 and round 9, 1955. Melbourne defeated Richmond by 16 points with identical scores: firstly 15.4 (94) to 10.18 (78) and then 13.16 (94) to 11.12 (78).
• During their short history, University were never involved in experiencing the same margin in successive matches against the same opponent.

 

[M Malice]

with the lions having the youngest and least experienced team in the competition for 2016. i was wondering.
1. what is the best performance in a season for the youngest team in the comp?
2. what is the best performance in a season for the least experienced team in the comp?
3. how do 2016 averages for the lions compare to the giants and suns in their start up year?

might help put into perspective the expectations on the lions in 2016 and the inevitable pressure on leppa if they don't perform as well as some pundits might expect.

posted this a few weeks ago, i have been searching for these figures, can not find them. thought i would bump it, somebody with more knowledge than me might not have seen it before.

 

[the croucher]

I don't know what side of the fence you guys stand on for that issue, but to me counting games that weren't actually played is just ridiculous, no matter the argument.

What is extraordinary is the fact that the game is included in the list to falsely maintain a set of consecutive games for a particular player, yet the game quite rightly is not included in the player's career record as a club game. Nor are any goals he kicked included in his career record for the club. This game in 1963 is a classic example of how the AFL is being two-faced about these records. http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1963/060919630706.html
Firstly, from playing point of view Kevin Murray is not in Fitzroy side as he was playing for Vic interstate, yet game is counted in his consec club games set of 110 1959-1964 (see page 666 of 2015 Season Guide). Note that Fitzroy won that 1963 match.
Secondly, on page 667 of the Season Guide there is a list of "Most Consecutive Losses." Kevin Murray is shown with a tally of 42 from 1962 to 1967. The Fitzroy win in 1963 of course occurs within that span, but the AFL do not consider that Murray played in that match - well not on page 667, but they do think he "played" in the game on page 666 !!!

 

[the croucher]

This probably doesn't tell you anything you aren't aware of (I assumed the discrepancies related mostly to players missing club games due to state games), but some may find it interesting, nonetheless:-

<snip>

John Murphy indicated this week that his “lost” games were yet to be returned.

Just a clarification -
was the Murphy ref to the time of the 2014 article,
or do you mean that John Murphy "indicated this week" being a comment from him at end of December 2015 ?
If latter, can you direct me to source please.
Thanks.