Stats questions

[maskmcgee]

Does anyone know both the coaches with
a) the most games coached without ever achieving, or
b) the most games coached before achieving;

- Making the finals
- Winning a final
- Reaching a prelim
- Reaching a grand final
- Winning a premiership?

Brad Scott would have to be getting close to the grand final record, surely?

 

[red+black]

Does anyone know both the coaches with
a) the most games coached without ever
- Making the finals
- Winning a final
- Reaching a prelim
- Reaching a grand final
- Winning a premiership?

Never made finals - 137 games coached, Alec Hall (1906-1925, SK ME RI HW)
Never won a final - 137, Bob McCaskill (1941-1951, NM HW)
Never reached a PF - 258, Bill Stephen (1955-1980, FI ES)
Never reached a GF - 258, Bill Stephen (1955-1980, FI ES)
Never won a GF - 377, Rodney Eade (1996-2017, SY WB GC)

Most games coached, never reached a Grand Final:
258 - Bill Stephen (1955-1980, FI ES)
247 - Terry Wallace (1996-2009, WB RI)
201 - Brad Scott (2010-2018, NM)
177 - Neil Craig (2004-2013, AD ME)
174 - Jack Hale (1948-1959, SM HW)
158 - Nathan Buckley (2012-2018, CO)

You would have to think Brad Scott is nearing the end of his coaching stint at North Melbourne. The problem for the club is that apart from 2017, they have won 10-14 H&A games each year. They have never bottomed out but they have also never reached any great heights. You could say that a pair of underdog semi-final wins in 2014 and 2015 has flattered the club and made them think that ultimate success might be closer than it really is.

 

[maskmcgee]

Well then I guess Hardwick must have coached about 170 games without a finals win then

 

[red+black]

I'm working on the other part of your question

 

[red+black]

Does anyone know the coaches with
b) the most games coached before achieving;
- Making the finals
- Winning a final
- Reaching a prelim
- Reaching a grand final
- Winning a premiership?

NOTES:
Prior to 1931 it was possible to make a Grand Final without winning a Final (Minor Premier Challenge)
Prior to 1991 it was possible to make a Preliminary Final without winning a final (Minor Premier loses 2nd Semi Final)
Prior to 1994 it was possible to make a Grand Final without playing a Preliminary Final (Minor Premier wins 2nd Semi Final)
In 1920, Dan Minogue did not coach the semi final which they lost. He returned to coach the winning (Challenge) Grand Final.
Games coached before making finals does not include that final.
Games coached before winning a final does include that final.
Games coached before making a PF does not include that PF.
Games coached before making a GF does not include that GF.
Games coached before winning a GF does include that GF.

 

[red+black]

Interesting to note that so far, the coaching career of Nathan Buckley has been better than that of Mick Malthouse.

Nathan will need to make and win a grand final though within 2-3 years.

 

[Fizzler]

Anyone know what the most current coaches playing in a match is?
Surely the 04 GF has the record with the Scott brothers playing for Brisbane and Port Adelaide having Hardwick and Dew. There may have even been more.

 

[X_box_X]

What have been the longest winning streaks to finish a season for teams who don't play finals?

I recall Hawthorn not making the finals in 1999 and ending the season very well.

I am guessing the record will be in the olden days of the final four, so I would also like to see what the best winning streaks are to end a season for a non finalist under the top eight system.

 

[the croucher]

Anyone know what the most current coaches playing in a match is?
Surely the 04 GF has the record with the Scott brothers playing for Brisbane and Port Adelaide having Hardwick and Dew. There may have even been more.

I think there would be a few in the early/mid-1990s where North Melb played West Coast:

Pyke & Worsfold v Clarkson & Longmire or Simpson & Longmire

 

[red+black]

What have been the longest winning streaks to finish a season for teams who don't play finals?

I recall Hawthorn not making the finals in 1999 and ending the season very well.

Won Last 3+ Games But Missed Finals Under A Final 6 or 8 System:
5 - GE ‘93, HW ‘98, HW ‘99
4 - FI ‘93, SY ‘02, HW ‘03, HW ‘06, PA ‘15
3 - SK‘94, RI‘97, CA‘98, ME‘01, RI‘08, PA‘10, BR‘12

If WB > RI on Saturday, 4 - WB ‘18

Won Last 4+ Games But Missed Finals Under A Final 5 System:
4 - ME ‘76

FI ‘82 went WWWWWWL, would have still missed finals if they won R22 (7 straight wins).

WC ‘89 went WWWLWWL, would have still missed finals if they won R19 and R22 (7 straight wins).

SY ‘89 went WWWLWW, would have still missed finals if they won R20 (6 straight wins).

Won Last 4+ Games But Missed Finals Under A Final 4 System:
8 - CA ‘42
7 - FO ‘31
6 - GE ‘36, FI ‘50, RI ‘55, HW ‘60, RI ‘68
5 - FI ‘25, CA ‘37, CA ‘40
4 - CO ‘33, GE ‘47, ME ‘47, FO ‘64, FI ‘71

SM ‘26 won 10 of their last 11 games but missed finals.

CA ‘55 went WWWWLWW, would have still missed finals if they won R16 (7 straight wins).

FI ‘71 went WWLWWWW, would have still missed finals if they won R18 (7 straight wins).

 

[X_box_X]

3+ Under A Final 6 or 8 System
5 - GE ‘93, HW ‘98, HW ‘99
4 - FI ‘93, SY ‘02, HW ‘03, HW ‘06, PA ‘15
3 - SK‘94, RI‘97, CA‘98, ME‘01, RI‘08, PA‘10, BR‘12

If WB > RI on Saturday, 4 - WB ‘18

4+ Under A Final 5 System
4 - ME ‘76

FI ‘82 went WWWWWWL, would have still missed finals if they won R22 (7 straight wins).

WC ‘89 went WWWLWWL, would have still missed finals if they won R19 and R22 (7 straight wins).

SY ‘89 went WWWLWW, would have still missed finals if they won R20 (6 straight wins).

4+ Under A Final 4 System
8 - CA ‘42
7 - FO ‘31
6 - GE ‘36, FI ‘50, RI ‘55, HW ‘60, RI ‘68
5 - FI ‘25, CA ‘37, CA ‘40
4 - CO ‘33, GE ‘47, ME ‘47, FO ‘64, FI ‘71

SM ‘26 won 10 of their last 11 games but missed finals.

CA ‘55 went WWWWLWW, would have still missed finals if they won R16 (7 straight wins).

FI ‘71 went WWLWWWW, would have still missed finals if they won R18 (7 straight wins).

This is sensational. Carlton in '42, wowwweee.

 

[Lana]

Are shots on goal included in the calculation of effective disposals?

Are behinds considered effective?

 

[CJApples87]

Are shots on goal included in the calculation of effective disposals?

Are behinds considered effective?

First question: yes they are.

Second question: a behind is an ineffective disposal.

 

[red+black]

Second question: a behind is an ineffective disposal.

this one wasn't, and I was there

 

[red+black]

Tony McGuinness played at least 100 games for 3 clubs at the highest level. Anyone else do that?

1981–85, 1998 - Glenelg (SANFL) - 103 games
1986–90 - Footscray (VFL/AFL) - 109 games
1991–96 - Adelaide (AFL) - 113 games

If you were to argue that the SANFL was not the highest level of football in 1998, the only information I have is that Tony may have only played one game that year, thus he still played at least 100 games in 1981-85.

 

[ThePezDispenser]

Tony McGuinness played at least 100 games for 3 clubs at the highest level. Anyone else do that?

1981–85, 1998 - Glenelg (SANFL) - 103 games
1986–90 - Footscray (VFL/AFL) - 109 games
1991–96 - Adelaide (AFL) - 113 games

If you were to argue that the SANFL was not the highest level of football in 1998, the only information I have is that Tony may have only played one game that year, thus he still played at least 100 games in 1981-85.

Excellent disclaimer.

Pretty decent stat if that’s the case.

Hunt might have got close if he stuck around for long enough?

 

[Underarm]

Tony McGuinness played at least 100 games for 3 clubs at the highest level. Anyone else do that?

1981–85, 1998 - Glenelg (SANFL) - 103 games
1986–90 - Footscray (VFL/AFL) - 109 games
1991–96 - Adelaide (AFL) - 113 games

If you were to argue that the SANFL was not the highest level of football in 1998, the only information I have is that Tony may have only played one game that year, thus he still played at least 100 games in 1981-85.

don't sanfl records include pre season games?
Pretty cool stat nonetheless.

 

[35Daicos]

don't sanfl records include pre season games?
Pretty cool stat nonetheless.

The numbers shown on Wikipedia don't take those games into account:
Years Club Games (Goals)
1981–85, 1998 Glenelg (SANFL) 103 (174)

They do include them in the figures here: http://sanfl.com.au/halloffame/a-b-tony-mcguinness/
PLAYING RECORD:
• 113 games and 187 goals for Glenelg, 1981 – 1985

The Glenelg games figure included by red+black matches the Wikipedia figure (it probably came from that source?), so should not include pre-season games.

 

[worbod]

Tony McGuinness played at least 100 games for 3 clubs at the highest level. Anyone else do that?

1981–85, 1998 - Glenelg (SANFL) - 103 games
1986–90 - Footscray (VFL/AFL) - 109 games
1991–96 - Adelaide (AFL) - 113 games

If you were to argue that the SANFL was not the highest level of football in 1998, the only information I have is that Tony may have only played one game that year, thus he still played at least 100 games in 1981-85.

Barry Round

1969-1975 - Footscray (VFL) - 135 games
1976-1985 - South Melb/Sydney (VFL) - 193 games
1986-1991 - Williamstown (VFA) - 110 games

Darren Jarman

1985-1990 - North Adelaide (SANFL) - 117 games
1991-1995 - Hawthorn (AFL) - 109 games
1996-2001 - Adelaide (AFL) - 121 games

 

[red+black]

Very nice. I'm guessing no one matches McGuiness for top flight football but anyone that plays 100 games for any 3 clubs has achieved something very rare.

 

[X_box_X]

when was the last time a team went into finals with four consecutive wins under 12 points?

 

[Rourke]

this one wasn't, and I was there

This is actually called The Plugger Exception at CD. If the player only has to score to win the game after the siren, a behind is considered effective.

 

[BlueBen]

In last night's Carlton vs. Adelaide game, Carlton won the inside 50 count (61-54) despite losing by 104 points.

I would guess that this has to be a statistical first, where a team could lose by such a big margin yet still have more inside 50s than their opposition?

 

[RedmanWasHere]

In last night's Carlton vs. Adelaide game, Carlton won the inside 50 count (61-54) despite losing by 104 points.

I would guess that this has to be a statistical first, where a team could lose by such a big margin yet still have more inside 50s than their opposition?

From Twitter.

 

[red+black]

This is actually called The Plugger Exception at CD. If the player only has to score to win the game after the siren, a behind is considered effective.

Yeah, I'd say Barry Breen's point would not be considered ineffective.

James Hird scored the behind in this game to tie the scores. A goal would have been better but I felt the behind was effective because it was raining and without knowing how long was left he just booted it from the square to at least give us a chance of not losing.

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1996/051619960503.html

In other news, are you coming to see Michy on Monday night?