Stats questions

[footyfan1978]

Why did North Melbourne play 2 away games in Perth against West Coast in 1987?

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1987/121819870503.html
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1987/121819870807.html

Bloody good question.
That is really weird and should not happen. Would have to ask North people that followed club very closely at time, why that happened. It never should where another club gets 12 home games and it is meant to be limited to 11. Thankfully it did not screw with positions on ladder but is a head scratcher. I can only guess maybe there was some issue with MCG in winter and the league shifted North game out West at North's approval to reduce some further damage to MCG and West Coast paid North a bundle of money to help their financial cause. Bob Ansett was powerful figure at North at time, he would have had to agree with it, along with Ron Casey whom was head of World of Sport and channel 7 and another North head honcho.
North would have had game televised live too. The problem I have with this is, even if North agree to it, all other club's in league competing on same ladder with Eagles would rightly feel Eagles have advantage over them and if you missed an important spot to make finals or double chance it is complete at odds with integrity of ladder. Same this year when Fremantle played 12 home games.

That was Eagles first season too. If you find the answer please pass on as it really is something that should have never been allowed.

 

[red+black]

What is odd is not so much that North played in Perth twice but that if North sold one of the games they should have been the home team for one of them.

 

[the croucher]

North Melbourne playing both games vs West Coast in Perth in 1987 certainly is a strange outcome,
but apparently it was at the club's request !!

via newspapers.com site we have snippet from The Age 12 Nov 1986 page 44

“West Coast will have 12 games in Perth because North Melbourne, at its own request, will play there twice.

North chief executive Ron Joseph said last night his club had offered to play twice in Perth as long as it was allocated nine home games at the MCG.”

The 1987 fixtures were released the day before and the article was a general look at the season ahead and range of outcomes for various clubs.

 

[35Daicos]

Just a quick one.

Noticed in the 4th Qtr of the Richmond Collingwood PF, Collingwood kicked 3.0 and Richmond kicked 2.0.

I have no idea if these are common occurrences or not.

a) Neither team scoring a behind in the same quarter.

Can anyone check those?

There's been 132 times (in 131 matches) where both teams have failed to score a behind in the same quarter:

1st Qtr. - 33
2nd Qtr. - 27
3rd Qtr. - 34
4th Qtr. - 38
*******132

In one game this happened in two quarters: https://afltables.com/afl/seas/1980.html#14


The previous occurrence of a quarter without behinds being scored was 2017 Rd. 15: https://afltables.com/afl/seas/2017.html#15


The most (aggregate) goals scored in a "behind-less" quarter is 15: https://afltables.com/afl/seas/1996.html#2


There's been one case of both teams failing to score either a goal or a behind in the same quarter: https://afltables.com/afl/seas/1901.html#13

 

[footyfan1978]

North Melbourne playing both games vs West Coast in Perth in 1987 certainly is a strange outcome,
but apparently it was at the club's request !!

via newspapers.com site we have snippet from The Age 12 Nov 1986 page 44

“West Coast will have 12 games in Perth because North Melbourne, at its own request, will play there twice.

North chief executive Ron Joseph said last night his club had offered to play twice in Perth as long as it was allocated nine home games at the MCG.”

The 1987 fixtures were released the day before and the article was a general look at the season ahead and range of outcomes for various clubs.

Fitzroy also played a home game at MCG the same weekend North played Eagles over there.
1987 Fitzroy, Carlton and Hawthorn were co-tenants at Princes Park so Fitzroy playing home game at MCG was a bit weird too. Melbourne, Richmond and North co-tenants at MCG. given there were reserves game on those grounds back then and the centre were cricket pitches in summer the work load on both grounds would have been more than MCG has in winter now.

I suspect North were in such need of money it is why they played another game in Perth and got good money for it as it would have been televised live back here as all interstate game were back then. No games in Victoria televised live.

 

[35Daicos]

Fitzroy also played a home game at MCG the same weekend North played Eagles over there.
1987 Fitzroy, Carlton and Hawthorn were co-tenants at Princes Park so Fitzroy playing home game at MCG was a bit weird too. Melbourne, Richmond and North co-tenants at MCG. given there were reserves game on those grounds back then and the centre were cricket pitches in summer the work load on both grounds would have been more than MCG has in winter now.

I suspect North were in such need of money it is why they played another game in Perth and got good money for it as it would have been televised live back here as all interstate game were back then. No games in Victoria televised live.

From the book Every Game Ever Played: (1987) Ground notes

• Fitzroy moved back to Princes Park, their 1967-69 venue, for home matches, sharing the ground with Carlton and Hawthorn.
• Both West Coast-North Melbourne matches were played in Perth.
• MCG as home ground: Fitz. v Haw., Carl. v Coll., Ess. v Coll.

 

[red+black]

Just watching Rise of the Baby Bombers, the story of Essendon's premiership year in 1993.

Essendon had 7 players under 21yo. Is that a record for a premiership?

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1993/030519930925.html#p0

 

[footyfan1978]

Just watching Rise of the Baby Bombers, the story of Essendon's premiership year in 1993.

Essendon had 7 players under 21yo. Is that a record for a premiership?

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1993/030519930925.html#p0

Doubt it. Some of teams in 60's pretty young,

 

[red+black]

checked a few years:

1958 - Collingwood (6 players in GF win < 21yo)
1961 - Footscray (9 players in GF loss < 21yo)
1966 - St Kilda (7), Collingwood (7)
1967 - Richmond (6)
1978 - Hawthorn (6)

 

[iluvparis]

And to quote the bleeding obvious - the GF was one of the best games we've seen for the last 10+ years.

Low scoring does not equal boring footy. Leave the bloody rules alone.

Not always but there would generally be a positive correlation between excitement and scoring.

 

[North park]

What amount (and percentage) of game time was West Coast in the lead in the 2018 Grand Final?

How does this compare to previous years? Is it the lowest ever recorded by a Grand Final winner?

 

[35Daicos]

What amount (and percentage) of game time was West Coast in the lead in the 2018 Grand Final?

How does this compare to previous years? Is it the lowest ever recorded by a Grand Final winner?

Checking this page on AFL Tables I make it that West Coast led for 9m 4s (3m 34s/Q1 Kennedy behind>Varcoe goal + 2m 5s/Q3 Yeo goal>Rushed behind + 3m 25s/Q4 Sheed goal>end of game) of 122m 58s, which is 7.37% of game time (544s/7378s), IF I've got everything correct!!

AFL Tables shows scoring progression in games from recent years, but I don't know of anywhere that has "all the sums done", so I'm not sure how this year's figures compare to those from previous years' Grand Finals!

 

[footyfan1978]

What amount (and percentage) of game time was West Coast in the lead in the 2018 Grand Final?

How does this compare to previous years? Is it the lowest ever recorded by a Grand Final winner?

Nope. Read up how you lost the 1918 grand final in last minute of the day to the Swans.

 

[footyfan1978]

Carlton's Fred Stafford kicked the winning goal with 44 seconds remaining in 1947 grand final over Essendon.
I suspect that is the smallest amount of time a team that won the premiership, has led.

 

[McCrann]

What amount (and percentage) of game time was West Coast in the lead in the 2018 Grand Final?

How does this compare to previous years? Is it the lowest ever recorded by a Grand Final winner?

Geelong weren't in front for much of the 2009 Grand Final! Believe me - I remember that quite well!

 

[North park]

Nope. Read up how you lost the 1918 grand final in last minute of the day to the Swans.

Found some information on the 1918 and 1947 Grand Finals.

http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/2017-09-26/grand-final-flashback-1918

http://www.blueseum.org/Grand+Final,+1947

Both had last minute goals for the winning team. Both also had close first quarters (2.5 v 3.3 and 4.0 v 3.7) so South Melbourne and Carlton may well have lead for some time early in the game before falling behind. I doubt there were any scoring progression records kept in those days.

 

[35Daicos]

Carlton's Fred Stafford kicked the winning goal with 44 seconds remaining in 1947 grand final over Essendon.
I suspect that is the smallest amount of time a team that won the premiership, has led.

Found some information on the 1918 and 1947 Grand Finals.

http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/2017-09-26/grand-final-flashback-1918

http://www.blueseum.org/Grand+Final,+1947

Both had last minute goals for the winning team. Both also had close first quarters (2.5 v 3.3 and 4.0 v 3.7) so South Melbourne and Carlton may well have lead for some time early in the game before falling behind. I doubt there were any scoring progression records kept in those days.

According to The Sporting Globe match report on the 1947 Grand Final, Carlton took the lead in the first quarter with an early goal against Essendon and held it for most of the way through the quarter: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/178140982

 

[35Daicos]

Nope. Read up how you lost the 1918 grand final in last minute of the day to the Swans.

Found some information on the 1918 and 1947 Grand Finals.

http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/2017-09-26/grand-final-flashback-1918

http://www.blueseum.org/Grand+Final,+1947

Both had last minute goals for the winning team. Both also had close first quarters (2.5 v 3.3 and 4.0 v 3.7) so South Melbourne and Carlton may well have lead for some time early in the game before falling behind. I doubt there were any scoring progression records kept in those days.

According to match reports, South Melbourne did score the first goal of the game, but Collingwood soon drew level, then took the lead and kept it (except when South briefly were level in the last quarter) until the game's dying moments.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/155140681
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1442192

 

[footyfan1978]

Found some information on the 1918 and 1947 Grand Finals.

http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/2017-09-26/grand-final-flashback-1918

http://www.blueseum.org/Grand+Final,+1947

Both had last minute goals for the winning team. Both also had close first quarters (2.5 v 3.3 and 4.0 v 3.7) so South Melbourne and Carlton may well have lead for some time early in the game before falling behind. I doubt there were any scoring progression records kept in those days.

Yes, well looks like Daicos done some good work to follow up if can find those teams ever had lead in first quarter and sounds like they have now. So it still could be one of these games but we probably going to struggle to find how long either side had a temporary lead in opening quarter. I did not check much beyond 1947 grand final as assumed that would be the one but now it still open might need to check some other close finishing grand finals in 50's, 60's and 70's.

 

[North park]

Yes, well looks like Daicos done some good work to follow up if can find those teams ever had lead in first quarter and sounds like they have now. So it still could be one of these games but we probably going to struggle to find how long either side had a temporary lead in opening quarter. I did not check much beyond 1947 grand final as assumed that would be the one but now it still open might need to check some other close finishing grand finals in 50's, 60's and 70's.

Thanks to you and 35Daicos for your work on this question. I think the most likely answer is that the 2018 Grand Final saw the winner in the lead for the lowest amount of game time since 1918 (another coincidence between the two matches).

I am fairly certain the 1964, 1966 and 1968 Grand Finals saw both teams in the lead for certain periods, despite the close finishes. Same goes for more recent Grand Finals in 2002, 2005, 2006 and 2012.

Even where teams came from behind in the last quarter (Carlton in 1970, Hawthorn in 1971 and Essendon in 1984), they got to the lead earlier than the last couple of minutes.

 

[red+black]

Given that Collingwood have been in 36.7% of all grand finals, good chance they hold many of the Grand Final records.

(Essendon 24.6%, Carlton 24.2%, West Coast 21.9%, Hawthorn 20.2%, Richmond 20.0%)

 

[footyfan1978]

Given that Collingwood have been in 36.7% of all grand finals, good chance they hold many of the Grand Final records.

The bad ones yes...lol...
Most drawn grand finals. Narrowest losing margin. Losing with biggest margin in front in a grand final. Lost most grand finals. Biggest run of grand finals without a win. Probably lost to most number of different clubs too. I am sure there are heaps. The good one that comes to mind is 4 grand final wins in a row in 1920's. The challenge system back then meant some were not named grand final at the time.

 

[Cuzz09]

Given that Collingwood have been in 36.7% of all grand finals, good chance they hold many of the Grand Final records.

(Essendon 24.6%, Carlton 24.2%, West Coast 21.9%, Hawthorn 20.2%, Richmond 20.0%)

Huh? So Eagles have been in 20% ?

On [device_name] using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Cuzz09]

West Coast in 1992 had 4 goal kickers in their GF win.

Sumich 6
Matera 5
Evans 3
Wilson 2

Total: 16

Is this the lowest amount of goalkickers for a winning GF side??

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[red+black]

Huh? So Eagles have been in 20% ?

West Coast have played from 1987 to 2018, or 32 seasons.

They have made 7 grand finals: 1991, 1992, 1994, 2005, 2006, 2015, 2018.

7 / 32 = 21.875%