Support Base Spreadsheet - Where do the 18 AFL clubs sit

[Hawkk]

In regards to Geelong and St Kilda (not sure how old you are) I remember them being considered just as big as Essendon and Richmond around 80's early 90's. Geelong would bring so many supporters to games and be in the majority a few come to mind:
queen's birthday 89
89 finals series apart from the Demons final
91 finals series apart from the Saints final
Remarkable to think that now that games at waverley the crowd was pro Geelong.

I wasn’t there (I was born in the mid 1980s) but finals crowds don’t check out for me. Here is a clip from the 1986 Preliminary Final where Fitzroy had the overwhelming support at Waverley Park - and they were dead 10 years later. Ditto the 1981 finals series where they played Essendon (?)



(5 minutes in)

People say St Kilda had a massive fan base but I don’t think that checks out. Apart from a small window in the 1960s (where they had a Moorabbin honeymoon) the Saints crowds and membership hasn’t moved much, even in the 1990s or 2000s where they made Grand Finals.

They are sort of like the opposition of Melbourne who have much better crowds but most assume the Saints have more fans (they are probably both very similar)

You’re not wrong about Essendon though, they really grew in the 1990s.

 

[What else we can do]

I wasn’t there (I was born in the mid 1980s) but finals crowds don’t check out for me. Here is a clip from the 1986 Preliminary Final where Fitzroy had the overwhelming support at Waverley Park - and they were dead 10 years later. Ditto the 1981 finals series where they played Essendon (?)



(5 minutes in)

People say St Kilda had a massive fan base but I don’t think that checks out. Apart from a small window in the 1960s (where they had a Moorabbin honeymoon) the Saints crowds and membership hasn’t moved much, even in the 1990s or 2000s where they made Grand Finals.

They are sort of like the opposition of Melbourne who have much better crowds but most assume the Saints have more fans (they are probably both very similar)

You’re not wrong about Essendon though, they really grew in the 1990s.

Fitzroy had a good following i'd say more than the Roos and similar to the Bulldogs and Hawks at the time. They did pull some great finals and home/away crowds right up to 1989 were I think they had 42,000 against the Pies and 31,000 against the Saints.

 

[Roylion]

Fitzroy had a good following i'd say more than the Roos and similar to the Bulldogs and Hawks at the time.

A Roy Morgan poll conducted in the eighties suggested Fitzroy had a supporter base of 200,000. In 1984 they had the fourth highest membership in the VFL, behind Collingwood, Carlton and Essendon.

 

[Walshawk]

The Herald Sun has a detailed two part article analysing all of this. Part 2 today is ranking the clubs. Anyone got access?

 

[What else we can do]

A Roy Morgan poll conducted in the eighties suggested Fitzroy had a supporter base of 200,000. In 1984 they had the fourth highest membership in the VFL, behind Collingwood, Carlton and Essendon.

In 1986 the VFL conducted it's own poll and it had Fitzroy at 200,000.

 

[Hawkk]

The Herald Sun has a detailed two part article analysing all of this. Part 2 today is ranking the clubs. Anyone got access?

https://archive.is/NwcbT

The big flaw with this is that 65% of the rating is membership, ticket income and revenue. That and they’ve got Richmond #1 despite ranking them 9th for ‘soft support’ (which is just the Roy Morgan survey)

 

[Walshawk]

https://archive.is/NwcbT

The big flaw with this is that 65% of the rating is membership, ticket income and revenue. That and they’ve got Richmond #1 despite ranking them 9th for ‘soft support’ (which is just the Roy Morgan survey)

Ticketing and Membership revenue is counted twice then. Strange.

 

[Hawkk]

In 1986 the VFL conducted it's own poll and it had Fitzroy at 200,000.

Do have these numbers across all clubs?

 

[Bjo187]

https://archive.is/NwcbT

The big flaw with this is that 65% of the rating is membership, ticket income and revenue. That and they’ve got Richmond #1 despite ranking them 9th for ‘soft support’ (which is just the Roy Morgan survey)

It's a strange weighting, what's the point of that huge revenue if they're bringing in a measly profit off it exactly?

 

[What else we can do]

Do have these numbers across all clubs?

No unfortunatly the historical article in the Age online was only refering to Fitzroy and not any other club.

 

[blaisee]

The Herald Sun has a detailed two part article analysing all of this. Part 2 today is ranking the clubs. Anyone got access?

I would not open this article if I was you, what you find inside will be your worst nightmare

 

[blaisee]

It's a strange weighting, what's the point of that huge revenue if they're bringing in a measly profit off it exactly?

The aligned leisure business is a $60m operation in an expansion phase

In this business, the profits will be posted as the organisation matures

Huge comparative advantage for Richmond, not that any one on this board would understand that, but you will see.

 

[Hawkk]

It's a strange weighting, what's the point of that huge revenue if they're bringing in a measly profit off it exactly?

It makes good click bait

I would not open this article if I was you, what you find inside will be your worst nightmare

Why exactly?

The aligned leisure business is a $60m operation in an expansion phase

In this business, the profits will be posted as the organisation matures

Huge comparative advantage for Richmond, not that any one on this board would understand that, but you will see.

That’s fine - and good for Richmond. I hope it helps them with the Jack Dyer Stand refurbishment. That said, it’s a bit like the Penrith Panthers in the NRL — huge revenue which may or may not result into profit in the long term but doesn’t directly translate to size of supporter base (as it didn’t with Hawthorn when we had massive pokies casinos we eventually sold)

As an aside, and to prove I’m not beyond criticising my own team, I think the Dingley development is a really stupid way for Hawthorn to spend exorbitant amounts of its own money — and it could easily come back and hurt them in the long run.

But whether Hawthorn has a $130m facility on a scrap heap or is still at Glenferrie Oval it will make no difference to its supporter or membership base - making it a moot point for this thread. Richmond has a much bigger support base than the Herald Sun article (which had the Tigers at 9th, they are easily top 4 as this thread clearly shows)

 

[Rob]

The aligned leisure business is a $60m operation in an expansion phase

In this business, the profits will be posted as the organisation matures

Huge comparative advantage for Richmond, not that any one on this board would understand that, but you will see.

Maybe, but it also comes with risk. Like any business really. You could easily be looking back in 10 years time wondering why the club got involved in such a disastrous venture.

If it was so easy to make money, every club would be investing in something similar.

 

[blaisee]

Maybe, but it also comes with risk. Like any business really. You could easily be looking back in 10 years time wondering why the club got involved in such a disastrous venture.

If it was so easy to make money, every club would be investing in something similar.

Oh dear

This probably the dumbest thing anyone has written on this forum, and that really is quite an achievement

Someone mentioned the Penrith Panthers earlier, maybe look into how it has worked out for them before you embarrass yourself further.

 

[Rob]

Oh dear

This probably the dumbest thing anyone has written on this forum, and that really is quite an achievement

Someone mentioned the Penrith Panthers earlier, maybe look into how it has worked out for them before you embarrass yourself further.

Yeah no business venture has ever gone under....what an idiot I must be

Apologies for spreading such misinformation

 

[blaisee]

Yeah no business venture has ever gone under....what an idiot I must be

Apologies for spreading such misinformation

nah all good mate

Creating a side business that turns over $60m and growing is a bad idea, obviously

and like you say, every club other has chosen not to do it, otherwise they would all have it, and if they had the choice of having it, and diversifying the club, they would knock it back, obviously, even though the same model for Penrith has ended up in an $80m business and 4 flags in a row, but what would they know, I mean, one thing has nothing to do with the other, must be a coincidence, what was I thinking?

Welcome to my ignore list, you have earned it

 

[Rob]

nah all good mate

Creating a side business that turns over $60m and growing is a bad idea, obviously

and like you say, every club other has chosen not to do it, otherwise they would all have it, and if they had the choice of having it, and diversifying the club, they would knock it back, obviously, even though the same model for Penrith has ended up in an $80m business and 4 flags in a row, but what would they know, I mean, one thing has nothing to do with the other, must be a coincidence, what was I thinking?

Welcome to my ignore list, you have earned it

Yeah one sporting club has made a mint, so that means every business that every other sporting club gets into is going to end exactly the same way.

****en hell there are some precious snowflakes that get a red mist when anyone suggests that their club might not be all cookies and cream.

 

[Bjo187]

Yeah one sporting club has made a mint, so that means every business that every other sporting club gets into is going to end exactly the same way.

****en hell there are some precious snowflakes that get a red mist when anyone suggests that their club might not be all cookies and cream.

The full nuffies you find in fan forums that will defend their club at any cost and always think their 'club management know best', even when they're sitting bottom of the ladder and in severe debt (as an example).

 

[gopies1981]

Update. I feel this is a much more accurate representation too -

Take Collingwood out and every club has 1 or 2 metrics that either out perform or are far lower than the others.


Tier 1

1. Collingwood (1, 1, 1, 1, 3, 1, 3, 1, 1, 1- 14)

Tier 2

2. Essendon (2, 7, 3, 4, 5, 3, 6, 5, 3, 4 - 41)
3. Richmond (6, 5, 6, 13, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 3 - 44)
4. Carlton (5, 11, 4, 6, 4, 4, 4, 3, 2, 2 - 45)

Tier 3

5. Hawthorn (3, 2, 7, 2, 9, 7, 5, 4, 9, 7 - 56)
6. West Coast (4, 18, 9, 5, 6, 6, 1, 6, 5, 5 - 65)

Tier 4

7. Geelong (9, 3, 11, 9, 13, 5, 7, 7, 8, 6 - 78)
8. Adelaide (7, 9, 2, 7, 11, 9, 8, 11, 6, 9 - 79)
9. Sydney Swans (8, 6, 8, 14, 1, 11, 10, 8, 7, 11 - 86)

Tier 5
10. Melbourne (15, 13, 16, 12, 6, 8, 9, 14, 11, 8 - 112)
11. Brisbane (11, 8, 10, 11, 8, 15, 16, 12, 15, 10 - 116)
12. Port Adelaide (13, 14, 13, 3, 15, 12, 11, 13, 13, 13 - 120)
13. Fremantle (10, 16, 12, 10, 16, 10, 13, 12, 12, 12 - 123)
13. St Kilda (14, 4, 12, 16, 11, 16, 12, 16, 10, 10 - 123)

Tier 6

15. W Bulldogs (12, 10, 15, 15, 14, 13, 14, 13, 14, 14 - 134)
16. North Melbourne (16, 15, 14, 8, 10, 16, 15, 17, 15, 16 - 141)

Expansion Tier

17. GWS Giants (17, 12, 17, 17, 16, 17, 17, 15, 17, 18 - 163)
18. Gold Coast (18, 17, 18, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 17 - 176)

You could probably combine tier 3 and 4 together (and tier 1 and 2)

I’m sure gopies1981 will love this

I’m excited mate. Pies clearly the biggest club in Australia. No one is close

 

[Bjo187]

I’m excited mate. Pies clearly the biggest club in Australia. No one is close

As an Essendon fan I reckon in the 90s and early 2000s, we were about 85 to 90 percent the size of the pies fanbase.

Eddie, 20 years towards the top and 20 years of us towards the bottom, I reckon we're about 70 to 75 percent the size now.

 

[gopies1981]

As an Essendon fan I reckon in the 90s and early 2000s, we were about 85 to 90 percent the size of the pies fanbase.

Eddie, 20 years towards the top and 20 years of us towards the bottom, I reckon we're about 70 to 75 percent the size now.

Well you could be right. If you take into account Roy Morgan poll from last year Collingwood is at 908,000 fans around Australia while Essendon who is second is at 668,000

 

[Peacock]

"Popular clubs like Carlton, Essendon, Collingwood and Geelong"

Was still the big 3 in 1952.

 

[dave10]

Well you could be right. If you take into account Roy Morgan poll from last year Collingwood is at 908,000 fans around Australia while Essendon who is second is at 668,000

I seriously don’t think Essendon is only 70-75% of Collingwood’s size now. I mean, seriously. Essendon are shite and have been for years and as a result their fans are disengaged and the statistics reflect this to an extent. But they still drew a club record 47K in round two against the Crows (after losing round 1 & expecting shite year) which reinforces the fact they have larger support than many newbies around here will remember, no disrespect intended .

The day will come when this club starts being footy relevant again. I mean winning a final. Just one!! And when it does, I can assure you the footy world will know it. They’re asleep yet still right up there in terms of crowd drawing capability whenever they’re within any ear shot of looking like a finals aspirant (not finals winner!).

Let’s all just relax. The Tiger bandwagon was big. The Blues bandwagon has been big. Essendon’s will be as big as them too. And all the instagram likes will come, 1 game GA memberships will be added and the home crowds will include every hanger on that these other winning teams pull along. I promise you!

 

[Hawkk]

"Popular clubs like Carlton, Essendon, Collingwood and Geelong"

Was still the big 3 in 1952.

Well, really a big 4 as Geelong were a big club all through the 1920s, 30s and 40s. Even in the early 1960s, Geelong finals crowds at the MCG were outdrawing Carlton and Essendon games — if that counts.

These days they are very much a middle of the road club (across basically all metrics) despite being a fantastically run and almost always successful club.

Carlton is the other - who was quite clearly the biggest club before the Second World War but are now far behind Collingwood and arguably Essendon.

I seriously don’t think Essendon is only 70-75% of Collingwood’s size now. I mean, seriously. Essendon are shite and have been for years and as a result their fans are disengaged and the statistics reflect this to an extent. But they still drew a club record 47K in round two against the Crows (after losing round 1 & expecting shite year) which reinforces the fact they have larger support than many newbies around here will remember, no disrespect intended .

The day will come when this club starts being footy relevant again. I mean winning a final. Just one!! And when it does, I can assure you the footy world will know it. They’re asleep yet still right up there in terms of crowd drawing capability whenever they’re within any ear shot of looking like a finals aspirant (not finals winner!).

Let’s all just relax. The Tiger bandwagon was big. The Blues bandwagon has been big. Essendon’s will be as big as them too. And all the instagram likes will come, 1 game GA memberships will be added and the home crowds will include every hanger on that these other winning teams pull along. I promise you!

That being said, if you look at bigfooty posts from the early 2000s the status quo really hasn’t changed irrespective of on field performance. Even with Carlton and Essendon flying back then and Collingwood in the wildnerness.

To me it suggests that there was a lot of change in club support from WWII right through to the early 1990s and not much since - despite some of the bigger clubs have very different levels of success.