Syria 2012 - the year of blood

[rowie343]

Yes and no.

First he called peaceful protestors terrorists.

Then he called armed opposition terrorists - getting closer to the mark but still ...

Then he went and found himself some actual real life terrorists.

Garbage. This has never been a civil war, it's a proxy war carried out by foreign countries.

 

[little graham]

Why we're bombing Syria.

 

[MaddAdam]

Garbage. This has never been a civil war, it's a proxy war carried out by foreign countries.

Actually, its always been an internal sectarian fight of which foreign proxies took advantage of.

It started as the Sunni trying to overthrow the Alawite regime by civil protests, quickly descended into Sunni militia fighting the Alawite/Christian regime forces and then rapidly descended into all out sectarian cleansing and warfare.

 

[Long Live HFC]

Garbage. This has never been a civil war, it's a proxy war carried out by foreign countries.

lol. I bet you think the US caused the arab spring too

 

[Lebbo73]

lol. I bet you think the US caused the arab spring too

Obama is a big fan of the Muslim Brotherhood!

 

[carnthemlions]

http://www.rt.com/news/315431-assad-interview-refugee-terrorists/



His message has been consistent for nearly 4 years.

What- that the terrorists are the problem?
It's not like the Assad regime has been the root cause of all the problems in Syria, right?

Yes and no.

First he called peaceful protestors terrorists.

Then he called armed opposition terrorists - getting closer to the mark but still ...

Then he went and found himself some actual real life terrorists.

Some of those terrorists even conveniently escaped from Assad regime's prisons.

 

[little graham]

The trolls have arrived.

 

[MaddAdam]

Some of those terrorists even conveniently escaped from Assad regime's prisons.

Very much so.

But also let's not forget that "The Christians to Beirut and the Alawites to the grave" was a slogan among the rebels from day one as well.

 

[Power Raid]

So what needs to happen from here to stabilise the area? Do you divide the nation up, do you continue to drop bombs, do you walk away?

I think we can all say what is not working but what is the solution?

 

[MaddAdam]

This is must read from Chulov. blackcat carnthemlions

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/17/why-isis-fight-syria-Iraq

By the time another young jihadi, Abu Issa, was freed from Aleppo’s central prison in late 2011, the Trojan horse act that was Isis was well under way – fuelled by Turkey’s porous borders, the savagery of the Syrian regime, feckless attempts to organise opposition fighters into a cohesive force, and the release of militant prisoners like himself. A Syrian with historical links to the group’s earliest incarnation, al-Qaida in Iraq, Abu Issa was released along with dozens of men like him as part of an amnesty given by Assad to Islamist detainees, which was touted by the regime as a reconciliation with men who had long fought against them.

Most of the accused al-Qaida men had been in the infamous Syrian prison system for many years before the uprising against Assad began. “We were in the worst dungeons in Syria,” said Abu Issa, who was a member of the various forerunners of Isis, and fought against the US army in 2004 and 2005 before fleeing Baghdad in 2006. “If you were charged with our crimes, you were sent to Political Security prison, Saydnaya in Damascus or Air Force Intelligence in Aleppo. You could not even speak to the guards there. It was just brutality and fear.”

But several months before Abu Issa was released, he and a large group of other jihadis were moved from their isolation cells elsewhere in the country and flown to Aleppo’s main prison, where they enjoyed a more communal and comfortable life. “It was like a hotel,” he said. “We couldn’t believe it. There were cigarettes, blankets, anything you wanted. You could even get girls.” Soon the detainees were puzzled by another prison oddity, the arrival of university students who had been arrested in Aleppo for protesting against the Assad regime.

“They were kids with posters and they were being sent to prison with the jihadis,” he said. “One of them was a communist and he talked about his views to everyone. There was a guy from al-Qaida in the prison and he was usually very polite but he got angry with this guy. He said if he saw him again he would kill him.” Abu Issa and the other Islamist detainees soon formed the view that they had been moved to the Aleppo prison for a reason – to instil a harder ideological line into the university students, who back then were at the vanguard of the uprising in Syria’s largest city.

On the same day that Abu Issa and many of his friends were released, the Lebanese government, which is supported by Damascus, also freed more than 70 jihadis, many of whom had been convicted of terrorism offences and were serving lengthy terms. The release puzzled western officials in Beirut who had been monitoring the fates of many of the accused jihadis in Lebanon’s jails for more than four years. Some had been directly linked to a deadly jihadi uprising in the Nahr al-Bared Palestinian refugee camp in July 2007, which led to 190 Lebanese soldiers being killed in battle and much of the camp destroyed. The claim that the Syrian regime aided the rise of extremism to splinter the opposition and reaffirm its own narrative that the war was all about terrorism in the first place has been widely repeated throughout the past five years. It is a central grievance of the mainstream opposition in Syria’s north, which says it lost more than 1,500 of its men ousting Isis from Idlib and Aleppo in early 2014. At the same time as the opposition was fighting the jihadis, the Syrian regime, which did not intervene, was able to advance around the city for the first time in the war. “There was no other reason for Salafi jihadis to be in that jail, and for the students to be with us,” said Abu Issa, who now lives in exile in Turkey. “They wanted them to be radicalised. If this stayed as a street protest, it would have toppled [the regime] within months, and they knew it.”

 

[ameen_ssnp]

Lol "Alawite regime" "Alawite/Christian regime forces " people do realize the majority of people in the Syrian Arab Army are Sunnis and the Majority of those in Government positions are Sunnis. Sure the opposition are sectarians made of mostly Sunnis but the government is not, I have many family members fighting for SAA and NDF and we are Sunnis.

 

[MaddAdam]

Lol "Alawite regime" "Alawite/Christian regime forces " people do realize the majority of people in the Syrian Arab Army are Sunnis and the Majority of those in Government positions are Sunnis. Sure the opposition are sectarians made of mostly Sunnis but the government is not, I have many family members fighting for SAA and NDF and we are Sunnis.

This is true and should not be overlooked. There's not wild love for jihadis among the Sunni.

 

[little graham]

 

[blackcat]

they dont need american money, they have their Saud and Emirati backers.

 

[blackcat]

Lol "Alawite regime" "Alawite/Christian regime forces " people do realize the majority of people in the Syrian Arab Army are Sunnis and the Majority of those in Government positions are Sunnis. Sure the opposition are sectarians made of mostly Sunnis but the government is not, I have many family members fighting for SAA and NDF and we are Sunnis.

i was not aware for one

 

[little graham]

they dont need american money, they have their Saud and Emirati backers.

In Syria you have this death cult, that iran, syria, russia, turkey, NATO, England, America, Canada and Australia have been at war with for ages. This death cult continues to make ground against us. They have no industry, no allies and are completely surrounded. But they don't touch isreal or help the Palestinians in way, nor do they attack american interests.

its spring, you cant not smell the roses, even if you're asheep

 

[blackcat]

In Syria you have this death cult, that iran, syria, russia, turkey, NATO, England, America, Canada and Australia have been at war with for ages. This death cult continues to make ground against us. They have no industry, no allies and are completely surrounded. But they don't touch isreal or help the Palestinians in way, nor do they attack american interests.

its spring, you cant not smell the roses, even if you're asheep

but we did have a relationship with Assad and his special branch, remember the line

torture them in damascus
make them talk in riyadh
disappear them in cairo

its extraordinary rendition. there were australians who were rendered by the american program under howards watch.
So no, we already had a relationship with Assad when it suited us.

 

[little graham]

The report broke down “possible actions” the US could have taken in Syria, including encouraging “rumors and signals of external plotting,” using the media to cause “Bashar personal angst and may lead him to act irrationally” and “highlighting failures of reform.” The strategies all seem to have in common a disregard for the Syrian people and their quality of life.One proposed action in particular should raise a few eyebrows: “play on Sunni fears of Iranian influence.” If the US proceeded with this plan, it could have played a role in the rise of ISIS.

http://www.ryot.org/new-wikileaks-d...y-have-played-role-in-creation-of-isis/943170

What alot of people with firm opinions have been saying for awhile.

WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange in his new book, “The WikiLeaks Files,” delves into the US empire and its involvement in Syria. He suggests America intended to overthrow the Syrian government long before the civil uprising began in 2011,

 

[blackcat]

http://www.ryot.org/new-wikileaks-d...y-have-played-role-in-creation-of-isis/943170

What alot of people with firm opinions have been saying for awhile.

its putsch 101. i could come up with the same talking points in 5 seconds, half cut, in a dark corner at Men's Gallery, sharing a dozen crownies the bogans upper tier beer with Robbo, and getting comp'ed private dances at Mens Gallery whilst MaddAdam snipes from roped off pleb section.

 

[medusala]

its putsch 101. i could come up with the same talking points in 5 seconds, half cut, in a dark corner at Men's Gallery

With Robbo adding his thoughts on the geo-political situation? He would be good for a few Sun Tzu quotes.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

http://www.ryot.org/new-wikileaks-d...y-have-played-role-in-creation-of-isis/943170

What alot of people with firm opinions have been saying for awhile.

Here come the (Russian) cavalry?

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...-russia-deploys-combat-planes-syria/72575214/

NOTE: I'm no fan of how the current Syrian government goes about things. If it is to survive, things HAVE to change on the ground over there. But, there are no good answers from the opposition sides. There ARE no Syrian 'moderates' ready to step in. The so-called 'vetted' groups that the U.S is handing weapons to - what will they do with power? What will their revenge on those holding power now be like?

Remove Bashar al-Assad now, and will Syria become even more of an open-air abattoir than it is currently? We only have to look over to gratefully liberated Libya now, gutted with the dismembered parts ruled over by rival warlords with no real accountability and with a growing branch of Islamic State there to boot.

 

[medusala]

There ARE no Syrian 'moderates' ready to step in.

But Rodham insists the Arab spring will result in freedom and democracy.

 

[blackcat]

just stop selling the arabs our oil, we wont need to give them our guns and migs.

#guns_migs_and_oil #ouroil

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

But Rodham insists the Arab spring will result in freedom and democracy.

For mine, the jury's still well out on what the 'Arab spring' has actually achieved. Maybe Tunisia's better off, but that's about it as far as I can see.

 

[blackcat]

For mine, the jury's still well out on what the 'Arab spring' has actually achieved. Maybe Tunisia's better off, but that's about it as far as I can see.

be interested with MaddAdam 's opinion on my theory.
i) organic combustion just like america had no idea on the demise of USSR and berlin wall, these things only can be discerned with the vantage of history, not predicted, that stupid talking point - tipping point, is only confirmation bias. yes the self immolation of the dude in tunisia by a street merchant, but this happens in tibet and other places where a tyranny prevails in other states across the world *organic combustion prolly poor metaphor

"achieved" this is the qu to MA.
my theory, it achieves some space in western media as the confirmation bias to entrench the ignorance and misperception we have on the region. When ABC and SBS still give us pretty stupid lens, and all outside the academy and foreign correspondents really have zero touchstone on the region. plus expats, no, i mean immigrants, and refugees. not all refugees, but some from a particular tier and stratum of political life in these regions.
America still have the power to maintain stability thru police states, and foment instability to weaken states. All states in this region have the political tinderbox conditions that leave them all too susceptible to outside influence.
*the devil's advocate is, do these states have the civil institutions that will be the underpinning of the democratic state? ofcourse they dont. so merely pointing finger of allegation to US is the ignorance i have been potting^above.

so, p'raps it did not "achieve" anything, but p'raps this is the incorrect question. It became resonant in the West, so it was validated in success and failure on this meta level, completely divorced from facts on the political ground. It may have highlighted the American doctrine of freedom and democracy, are not a linear progression and can be developed with a whitepaper from the state department or pentagon. perhaps freedom and democracy, is not the ultimate priority for some under repression from the state, the priority is merely to revoke the yoke of oppression. i dont think this is the same thing, its a spectrum. same spectrum, but not the same. And America do indeed have considerable influence here. But ofcourse this is not their priority, even tho we hear about Syria and you will get idiots like Barnaby Joyce raising his head to speak about bombing and intervention with no appreciation of potential counter-factuals, this "right-to-protect" doctrine, the RTP is still the trojan cloak of western intervention.