Tall Forwards

[Maverick]

Have read a number of articles on the Lions website over the pre-season re our Tall Forwards structure and the tall players vying for a position.

From all reports the plan is to play 3 talls, and those competing for a spot are listed to be:
Brown
Retzlaff
Ace
Lisle
Karnezis
Lester

I have read that players have trained according to their likely position i.e. the above mentioned players have trained with Harvey, and appear to be pigeonholed as only forwards. Is this the case?

This concerns me somewhat.

I would have thought Brown, Ace, Karnezis and Lester would all be in our Round 1 team, and possibly Lisle.

But if all are considered forwards, only 3 may make the cut.

I consider Lisle could play CHB and Lester potentially half back. This would allow Brown, Ace & Karnezis to play as the 3 talls.

I hope the coaches are not so narrow minded as to consider the above mentioned 6 as forwards only?

 

[Lace Out]

I don't think they will be pigeon holed so much but you probably need to have some sort of initial plan to enact and play it by ear.
I dare say there won't be alot of success in the first ten weeks and then we will see some player experimentation/movement and of course we will have injuries that will also force new positioning.

 

[Nick Lions]

I'd imagine, given that Lisle moved to Brisbane on the assumption that he would get more opportunity and has since said that was the case, that he would be getting a crack reasonably early on in the piece. It would be a kick in the guts to move interstate, give your all at training and be left out of the side come round 1. Brown is probably a lock if fit which probably leaves 1 spot which will most probably go to either Ace or Karnezis. Retzy looks to be a bit behind in the pecking order and Lester is probably more of a utility, rather than a true forward

FWIW I also think there are too many guys in contention for forward spots and 2 of those guys may have to shift to defence. Lisle may see himself as a forward but from what I have seen is more than capable in defence and Lester also looks to be well suited to a defensive role.

I suppose the dilemma of having too many talls in the side isn't terrible but all of these guys seem highly talented and I'd hate to see us lose any of them to another club.

 

[weevil]

Some of our ‘tall forwards’ other clubs call ‘midfielders’.

 

[PattyKwasagun]

Karnezis would have to have a shocker of a NAB cup to miss out on round 1 surely. Has done miles more than Ace (in matches, at least) to earn his spot in the side. I think it'd be a massive surprise if he was left out.

I reckon Ace and Retzy will be starting the year in the reserves. Lester might grab himself a bench spot, or play somewhere else on the field. But I'd be quite surprised to see anyone by Lisle, Browny and Patty K as our three tall forward for round one.

 

[POBT]

Karnezis would have to have a shocker of a NAB cup to miss out on round 1 surely. Has done miles more than Ace (in matches, at least) to earn his spot in the side. I think it'd be a massive surprise if he was left out.

I reckon Ace and Retzy will be starting the year in the reserves. Lester might grab himself a bench spot, or play somewhere else on the field. But I'd be quite surprised to see anyone by Lisle, Browny and Patty K as our three tall forward for round one.

That's my view too although I am less certain now than I was a few weeks ago. Lester training as a forward and A-Corn playing a lead up role makes things interesting. Retzy shouldn't be disregarded either.

I don't think Karnezis is a lay down misere just yet. He got away with a lot last year, partly due to the fact that it was his first year, partly due to his obvious talent and partly due to the fact that we didn't have a lot of other options. His defensive game was pretty poor and he really would only contribute for a quarter or so. Lester, in his limited game time, looked a more complete player who was better equipped to play senior footy. Despite Karnezis's obvious talent, I could definitely see Voss starting him in the reserves if he doesn't get the team things right.

Every young player needs to improve but the expectations on Karnezis are sky high at the moment - and I think he needs quite a significant improvement to match those expectations. I can see Lester, a quiet achiever who gets the basics right, leapfrogging him with a quality pre-season.

 

[Ironmonger]

POBT once again the voice of reason.

It sounds like there's a lot of people around the club who are just as excited about Karnezis as us wide-eyed supporters. It's probably a good thing if the club isn't taking it as a given that he'll become a fixture in the forwardline in 2012. I always want to see the Lions making decisions for solid, objective reasons rather than emotion.

That said, I actually had some similar thoughts to the OP. I was quite surprised when I heard Lester say he was training to play mostly in the forwardline. Perhaps Voss is just trying to turn him into a genuine utility, or perhaps one of the players listed in the OP is working with the backs? We have a pretty good history when it comes to turning forwards into quality defenders.

 

[Quigley]

That's my view too although I am less certain now than I was a few weeks ago. Lester training as a forward and A-Corn playing a lead up role makes things interesting. Retzy shouldn't be disregarded either.

I don't think Karnezis is a lay down misere just yet. He got away with a lot last year, partly due to the fact that it was his first year, partly due to his obvious talent and partly due to the fact that we didn't have a lot of other options. His defensive game was pretty poor and he really would only contribute for a quarter or so. Lester, in his limited game time, looked a more complete player who was better equipped to play senior footy. Despite Karnezis's obvious talent, I could definitely see Voss starting him in the reserves if he doesn't get the team things right.

Every young player needs to improve but the expectations on Karnezis are sky high at the moment - and I think he needs quite a significant improvement to match those expectations. I can see Lester, a quiet achiever who gets the basics right, leapfrogging him with a quality pre-season.

I disagree with you on one very important aspect POBT and that is in goal kicking ability. Lester worked hard both ways and seemed pretty ready for AFL football even as a first year player but he did not look like a goal scoring threat. He was not played as a defensive forward although he was expected to contribute in that regard. His inability to be a goal kicking threat is a major hole in the "more complete player" argument I think.

Karnezis came in as a very skinny kid and in comparison was always a threat. He averaged 1.55 goals per game whereas Lester averaged 0.67 goals per game. In a team that ranked 13th in points scored last year the ability to put goals on the board has to be a significant factor.

Both will be more developed physically this year but for me that is going to help Karnezis more given his game style. He needs to work on his endurance as well and improve his defensive game but I can see him more easily closing that gap on Lester than Lester closing the gap on Karnezis on scoreboard impact.

Really though I see them as two fairly different players. Karnezis has more flair and I would be hoping he could develop along the Steve Johnson lines. With Lester I think he should be developed as a tall runner like Joel Corey who could play anywhere on the park. With round 1 in mind though there is no way I would be dropping Karnezis to make way for Lester. Karnezis showed great potential last year and the best way for him to improve is to play him in the firsts. Lester coming back from most of the year on the sidelines could get a lot of benefit from teh ressies.

 

[POBT]

I disagree with you on one very important aspect POBT and that is in goal kicking ability. Lester worked hard both ways and seemed pretty ready for AFL football even as a first year player but he did not look like a goal scoring threat. He was not played as a defensive forward although he was expected to contribute in that regard. His inability to be a goal kicking threat is a major hole in the "more complete player" argument I think.

Agree although I didn't say that Lester was a complete player. I said he was more complete that Karnezis. He tackled, chased, hit in at contests etc. Karnezis is clearly the bigger scoreboard threat but last season he was limited in some pretty critical areas of the game.

Karnezis came in as a very skinny kid and in comparison was always a threat. He averaged 1.55 goals per game whereas Lester averaged 0.67 goals per game.

Hardly a great sample size for Lester though, particularly when he played significant minutes of one game as a backman.

Both will be more developed physically this year but for me that is going to help Karnezis more given his game style. He needs to work on his endurance as well and improve his defensive game but I can see him more easily closing that gap on Lester than Lester closing the gap on Karnezis on scoreboard impact.

I probably agree - I am just making the point that it is nowhere near a foregone conclusion yet. Karnezis is a long way off the complete package. Forward defensive pressure is absolutely critical these days. Put simply, Karnezis was a defensive liability last year. I will make a prediction that we will not carry Karnezis in the ones if he does not significantly improve this part of his game.

However, my expectation is that he will. I didn't see a lack of desire holding Karnezis back - he was just too weak and lacked the engine. Extra weight and another pre-season running program will hold him in good stead.

With round 1 in mind though there is no way I would be dropping Karnezis to make way for Lester.

To be honest, I am not sure how you can be so definitive on this point. Sure, he's in my side for round 1 but he's no rolled gold certainty. He's a second year player - with all the uncertainty that brings.

Karnezis showed great potential last year and the best way for him to improve is to play him in the firsts. Lester coming back from most of the year on the sidelines could get a lot of benefit from teh ressies.

You and I have had this debate before with respect to Proud and Cornelius. My belief is that the non-negotiables must be in place before a player is given a run in the top grade - tackling, defensive pressure and team acts like shepherding are top of the list. And, FWIW, I reckon that the evidence demonstrates that Voss is of the same view. This is the Lethal school of coaching but I also think that it is the view of Malthouse, the Scott brothers and several others too.

In the modern game, one-way footy is a surefire way to find yourself playing reserves. Coaches demand that players meet the benchmarks in defensive effort and gut running. Players who don't get dropped.

It is particularly true in the early part of the season where standards must be set. If 21 players are expected to run hard, chase and tackle, then Karnezis must do the same. If during the NAB Cup he shows only incremental improvement in the defensive parts of his game, then my view is that Voss won't put him in the side. But, as I said, I am quite confident that Karnezis will improve enough in this critical area to mean that he won't be a defensive liability. And that's all that I think Voss will ask.

 

[POBT]

That said, I actually had some similar thoughts to the OP. I was quite surprised when I heard Lester say he was training to play mostly in the forwardline. Perhaps Voss is just trying to turn him into a genuine utility, or perhaps one of the players listed in the OP is working with the backs? We have a pretty good history when it comes to turning forwards into quality defenders.

If I am looking at the Lions list and have a swingman type like Lester, defence is the area that I'd be looking to shore up. I was just as surprised as others to see him train forward. In the forwards, we have 4 players who are somewhat similarly experienced - Karnezis, Lisle, Cornelius and Retzlaff. Lester makes 5 for probably 2 positions. Unless we are going to adopt Blynd Freddie's land of the giants approach, at least a couple of young forwards are going to miss.

The only think I can think of is that the club is quite comfortable with Lester as a backman but, if he is to perform the Staker role, need him to learn more about forward play.

 

[Lets Roar like '44]

Id like to see Lisle and Lester in the back line.

Maguire is on his last legs
Patfull is serviceable but wouldn't think a guaranteed player
Drummond is Drummond- wont play half the year
Staker is just about cooked and not getting any younger

We need some new key defenders with the potential of 10 years of quality down there, not just fill the position because it needs to be filled, fill it because you are a very good player in that position.

I think we can definitely do it with Lisle, Lester I am not convinced what he can bring to the table, but he has the height and can build on strength where he could suit the 2nd and 3rd forwards if he can progress.

 

[Quigley]

Agree although I didn't say that Lester was a complete player. I said he was more complete that Karnezis. He tackled, chased, hit in at contests etc. Karnezis is clearly the bigger scoreboard threat but last season he was limited in some pretty critical areas of the game.



Hardly a great sample size for Lester though, particularly when he played significant minutes of one game as a backman.



I probably agree - I am just making the point that it is nowhere near a foregone conclusion yet. Karnezis is a long way off the complete package. Forward defensive pressure is absolutely critical these days. Put simply, Karnezis was a defensive liability last year. I will make a prediction that we will not carry Karnezis in the ones if he does not significantly improve this part of his game.

However, my expectation is that he will. I didn't see a lack of desire holding Karnezis back - he was just too weak and lacked the engine. Extra weight and another pre-season running program will hold him in good stead.



To be honest, I am not sure how you can be so definitive on this point. Sure, he's in my side for round 1 but he's no rolled gold certainty. He's a second year player - with all the uncertainty that brings.




You and I have had this debate before with respect to Proud and Cornelius. My belief is that the non-negotiables must be in place before a player is given a run in the top grade - tackling, defensive pressure and team acts like shepherding are top of the list. And, FWIW, I reckon that the evidence demonstrates that Voss is of the same view. This is the Lethal school of coaching but I also think that it is the view of Malthouse, the Scott brothers and several others too.

In the modern game, one-way footy is a surefire way to find yourself playing reserves. Coaches demand that players meet the benchmarks in defensive effort and gut running. Players who don't get dropped.

It is particularly true in the early part of the season where standards must be set. If 21 players are expected to run hard, chase and tackle, then Karnezis must do the same. If during the NAB Cup he shows only incremental improvement in the defensive parts of his game, then my view is that Voss won't put him in the side. But, as I said, I am quite confident that Karnezis will improve enough in this critical area to mean that he won't be a defensive liability. And that's all that I think Voss will ask.

I think you might have your rose coloured glasses on when thinking of Lester's game impact particularly his tackling. He managed 1 solitary tackle across his three games. That is poor even for a third tall type. Karnezis for all of his lack of endurance and defensive skills managed to average 1.3 tackles per game. Still nothing to write home about but a full tackle more per game than Lester.

Karnezis I don't think was a liability defensively but it certainly was not his strength. He was not helped by the fact that we had some genuinely poor defensive talls in Brown (has to be said), Cornelius and Clark. Karnezis lacked endurance to consistently work back but I also thought he looked a little lost on occasions about what he was supposed to be doing. Another preseason with a big focus on that area will help his positioning a huge amount I think.

Karnezis did not just wander around sulking like Clark and neither was he out on his feet like Cornelius a lot of the time. He worked to his capabilities.

Ideally every player on the park will be a two way player. One of the problems we had last year was that we were carrying too many one way players and more often than not they were defensive players who had no scoreboard impact. Lester despite his tackling stats was the better defensively but he was certainly the poorer offensively. If you are evaluating them as "complete players" how do you come to that conclusion unless your definition of complete player is restricted purely to the defensive end. Karnezis the the bigger goal threat, better marking target, creates more chances for his teammates and does those little magical things that lift the team as a whole.

I think you need to consider team balance a lot more than you are doing. It would be fine to discount Karnezis' offensive impact if we were an offensive juggernaut but that is not the case. The team needs a goal scorer in that slot and that person is Karnezis rather than Lester who I think is better suited to other roles.

For all of Voss' supposed preferences it is worth noting that this defensive liability was selected for the final 11 games of last season despite being a first year tall. He was not simply blooded and then sent back to the reserves to improve his defensive work. He was played in every game from the middle of the year on. I am thinking that probably gives us a better indication of how Voss rates him than importing supposed non-negotiables into the equation.

I did not say with absolute certainty that he would be picked merely that I would pick him. I can be pretty definative in regards to knowing what I personally would do.

 

[POBT]

I think you might have your rose coloured glasses on when thinking of Lester's game impact particularly his tackling.

Not sure about rose coloured glasses. I actually prefer Karnezis to Lester as a footballer.

Karnezis I don't think was a liability defensively but it certainly was not his strength.

I disagree with this. If I had to rank Karnezis's football in 2011, his defensive work would have got a D minus. The only reason he escaped an E is for the effort he put in. He missed way too many tackles, lacked the engine to put in repeat chasing efforts and was regularly out of position when the opposition had the ball. I saw numerous occasions where our opposition played through Karnezis's opponent to the detriment of the side. He was a liability IMO. I was willing to excuse that in a first year player who showed many promising signs. I am not willing to be so forgiving in 2012, particularly if other players are pressuring his spot in the side.

He was not helped by the fact that we had some genuinely poor defensive talls in Brown (has to be said), Cornelius and Clark.

And he'll likely be playing alongside Brown, Cornelius/Lisle and even a resting ruckman this year. For the sake of the side's balance, Karnezis needs to lift his defensive game significantly. That goes for Cornelius and Lisle too.

Karnezis lacked endurance to consistently work back but I also thought he looked a little lost on occasions about what he was supposed to be doing. Another preseason with a big focus on that area will help his positioning a huge amount I think.

Sure. I am not denying the improvements that he will make over the off-season. The point I made is that it had to be more than incremental improvement.

Karnezis did not just wander around sulking like Clark and neither was he out on his feet like Cornelius a lot of the time. He worked to his capabilities.

Which I acknowledged. Attitude was not an issue - as it was for Clark and was for Cornelius prior to last year. If the attitude is right, then the other stuff will follow if it is a focus of his preparation. The question is how much is how much his capability has improved. If it has not improved, or the improvement is incremental, I would think seriously about not playing him in round 1 if others are stepping up.

If you are evaluating them as "complete players" how do you come to that conclusion unless your definition of complete player is restricted purely to the defensive end.

A complete player surely has to be one that can do all things required of a modern footballer, to an average standard or better. I believe Lester is closer to that in more areas than Karnezis. There is no one part of Lester's game where I look and think "geez, that really holds him back". There are at least a few areas of Karnezis's game which I think not only hold him back but have the potential of impacting the side as a whole (unless he improves them). That is not to discount his strengths which are fantastic.

Karnezis the the bigger goal threat, better marking target, creates more chances for his teammates and does those little magical things that lift the team as a whole.

I believe Lester is a very good mark and I think he brings teammates into the game. I'd rank Lester as Karnezis' equal in marking, at least. I also think that Lester does as many "little things" that benefit the team, it is just that they aren't "magical".

I think you need to consider team balance a lot more than you are doing. It would be fine to discount Karnezis' offensive impact if we were an offensive juggernaut but that is not the case. The team needs a goal scorer in that slot and that person is Karnezis rather than Lester who I think is better suited to other roles.

I think I am considering team balance. I think that the forward line absolutely needs a third tall who contributes at least adequately in the defensive parts of the game. Every side in the comp now builds its game on the pressure it applies in the front half of the ground. Defence is effectively a form of offence in this regard.

Every side also looks to target the weaknesses in the opposition's front half pressure. One player falling off a tackle or failing to make position leads to fast break footy which almost inevitably leads to goals. You disagree with me that Karnezis is a defensive liablity so this is a circular conversation. But if I am correct and Karnezis has major weaknesses which remain unresolved then team structure, if not balance, dictates that we cannot afford defensive liabilities in the front half, particularly, as you say, with the rest of the tall forwards also being quite poor in this regard.

Put it this way, Brown earns the right to be a poor chaser because of the work he puts in in attack. But with him as a relative non-chaser, we can't afford too many more. Sides will kill us on the rebound if we do.

For all of Voss' supposed preferences it is worth noting that this defensive liability was selected for the final 11 games of last season despite being a first year tall. He was not simply blooded and then sent back to the reserves to improve his defensive work. He was played in every game from the middle of the year on. I am thinking that probably gives us a better indication of how Voss rates him than importing supposed non-negotiables into the equation.

We were hardly flushed with other options. Moreover, Voss made him the sub on several occasions and that had to be partly due to the fact that he ran out of legs far too easily which impacts the side most when chasing/tackling is required. Lester was selected for round 1 - when we had just about every tall player on the list available. What does that say about how he was rated by the club?

I am surprised that you don't agree with my proposition that Voss has minimum standards in these areas that are non-negotiable. We've seen evidence of this at the selection table for a fair while now. The only player that I can think of who survived failing to do the team things is Clark and there were clearly extenuating circumstances there.

I did not say with absolute certainty that he would be picked merely that I would pick him. I can be pretty definative in regards to knowing what I personally would do.

Fair enough. What if Lester brains the pre-season and Karny plays like a dog?

I've seen enough of Karnezis to be convinced that he will be a very good footballer, at a bare minimum. He's got so much talent and looks like he will have that ability to really hurt the opposition offensively. But there is a difference between what I think he will become and what I saw last year. Last year, I saw tremendously promising glimpses. But he needs to follow up on that, as well as rectify his weaknesses. I don't see any problem with wanting to see some improvement in his game before considering him a lock in our best 22.

 

[Ironmonger]

Man, this is an awesome debate! Keep it coming, boys!

Although was Karny really a substitute more than once, POBT?

 

[Tassie4ever]

A few remarks re POBT's very well-balanced comments above:

First, I don't really think we can take too much from who was selected and where from last season. To my mind, we had reached pretty much rock-bottom, as our results [reminder- 4 wins] attest. So Karnezis getting a regular game doesn't necessarily put him in front of Lester, although I honestly hope their early performances put them both in the best 22.

Karnezis: surprised me on his first team performances last season. I honestly didn't see a great deal in his reserves games to suggest he would do as well as he did. I now rate him as having serious potential. However, it is fair to say he fell away as the season progressed, and developed a bad habit of far too readily going to ground. However, good signs can be taken from his off-season physical development.

Cornelius: you can take it from me first hand that he is well aware of the widespread [and accurate, IMHO] adverse comments regarding his off-the-ball contributions, and intends to do something about redressing this. Whether he can do so will tell the tale. Personally, although I didn't tell him so, I have my doubts.

##Patfull: his team contribution has fallen away since his serious facial injury. No longer the force he was.

##Drummond: well,what can you say?- 79 games in 7 seasons I read somewhere, which says it all really. And no real sign so far of this year being any different.

##Maguire: at this point of his career realistically isn't going to improve much you'd suggest. A good kick, but too slow in a side that already lacks pace.

##all of which means we need to develop alternative backline options. Lester? Hawksley [who showed a bit towards the end of the season IIRC]? Polkinghorne [who has been promising so much for so long]. Suggestions?

 

[Quigley]

Personally POBT I think you are looking at things wrongly. To me you win a premiership not so much by having players who are even across the board. It's more about having players who excel in particular areas. You want to restrict their weaknesses sure but its the strengths rather than the weaknesses which make great teams.

You can build a game style to compensate for weaknesses. Collingwood and St Kilda have a lot of really pretty poor one of one defenders yet were very successful because they built their game around upfield pressure that allowed the defenders to sag off and cut out the long balls. Having guys with complementary skills also helps.

When comparing Karnezis and Lester I am looking at strengths rather than weaknesses because that is where I see games being won. Karnezis is a game winner in the forward half. He has skills already that will win us games. He has weaknesses sure but with effort by him, good game design by the coaches and puting complementary players aroud him that can be overcome. Lester on the other hand has not shown me anything to suggest that he will be an above average player. He has less weaknesses sure but what does he offer that gives him a position in a premiership side? Now I am being completely unfair given that this is a second year player but in a comparison of the two the strengths of Karnezis stand out a lot more than Lester's do and if I have a premiership as my aim I play the guy with the higher ceiling and work on bringing the weaknesses up.

 

[POBT]

Although was Karny really a substitute more than once, POBT?

I don't have the facts but he was sub on debut and he definitely was against West Coast. I thought he was subbed off at least once too.

No more than any other youngster, granted but that's probably my point - he's just a youngster who has a lot of work to do.

 

[POBT]

Personally POBT I think you are looking at things wrongly. To me you win a premiership not so much by having players who are even across the board. It's more about having players who excel in particular areas. You want to restrict their weaknesses sure but its the strengths rather than the weaknesses which make great teams.

You can build a game style to compensate for weaknesses. Collingwood and St Kilda have a lot of really pretty poor one of one defenders yet were very successful because they built their game around upfield pressure that allowed the defenders to sag off and cut out the long balls. Having guys with complementary skills also helps.

When comparing Karnezis and Lester I am looking at strengths rather than weaknesses because that is where I see games being won. Karnezis is a game winner in the forward half. He has skills already that will win us games. He has weaknesses sure but with effort by him, good game design by the coaches and puting complementary players aroud him that can be overcome. Lester on the other hand has not shown me anything to suggest that he will be an above average player. He has less weaknesses sure but what does he offer that gives him a position in a premiership side? Now I am being completely unfair given that this is a second year player but in a comparison of the two the strengths of Karnezis stand out a lot more than Lester's do and if I have a premiership as my aim I play the guy with the higher ceiling and work on bringing the weaknesses up.

I fully expect Karnezis to be a member of our side when it pushes for a premiership. But this is a development year, a time to set standards and make players meet those standards. If Karnezis fails to meet certain standards, as I believe he did last year, then I find it more difficult to justify his selection than last year when he was a bright spark in a pretty dismal season. Every year in the system means less grace is granted for the weaknesses in a game.

If Karnezis is to be that magical, game winning half forward that we all hope, then he can't let the side down in other areas. Steve Johnson isn't an outstanding defensive player but he doesn't let his side down. But it took Johnson over 5 years for the penny to drop that he had to do more than the flashy stuff. Sure, Johnson's off-field issues and preparation left a lot to be desired, which clearly isn't the case for Karnezis. But SJ is a prime example of getting the little stuff right. And Geelong, under Thompson and now Scott, are a classic case of setting non-negotiables that must be met before senior selection is earned and maintained. The team rules become sacrosanct.

I will repeat though that I expect Karnezis to play round 1. I expect him to be at least a 20% better player without the ball which will be enough IMO to warrant his spot in the side. But that expectation is contingent on the improvement. Without the improvement, I wouldn't play him and I expect Voss wouldn't either.

 

[chopperduck]

He will cop extra attention over the next few years as well, as he will be a known goal kicker. How he responds to this will be a big factor in his form as well i think for Karny.

I really liked how Lester played, but with a nearly full squad, you just can't fit every body in. If we have an outstanding run with injuries, i'm sure we will probably give some sort of rotation policy a go. With so many young players, if enough of them push for a spot, they need to be rewarded, and if that means giving someone a rest for a week or two, it won't be the end of the world. Being how young so many of the players are, it would probably help to keep some of them a bit fresh, and also help with any niggles or injuries they might pick up during the year anyway.

I don't think we need to worry about something like a Karny/Lester decision just yet.

 

[Leuy LongerCombo]

I fully expect Karnezis to be a member of our side when it pushes for a premiership. But this is a development year, a time to set standards and make players meet those standards. If Karnezis fails to meet certain standards, as I believe he did last year, then I find it more difficult to justify his selection than last year when he was a bright spark in a pretty dismal season. Every year in the system means less grace is granted for the weaknesses in a game.

Agree with you on this POBT, a standard for all player needs to be set especially for team orientated tasks such as tackling, running the other way etc.

I can remember a few years ago Nick Dal Santo got dropped from the saints line-up for similar reasons. His stats weren't too bad at that stage and on skill and performance alone he wouldn't have got dropped. But it set a precedent not only for Dal Santo but the whole team, and in the long run the team will benefit from it.

On Lester i prefer him in the back, I also like Brown/Lisle/Karnezis as the 3 talls.

Out of the 2 structure there would be a lot more involved in the forward line then back (should be easier to transition to a third tall back then third tall forward.) . I hope its a case of Lester training with the forwards to know the structure of the forward line if hes required to play up there.

 

[lion_in_the_sand]

what are we going to do with our resting ruckmen?

I read somewhere that vossy wants to have two ruckmen in the team splitting the workload 60/40, as opposed to having leuy spending 80% of gametime in the ruck like last year.

Does this mean we will have 4 talls in our fowardline?

 

[chopperduck]

what are we going to do with our resting ruckmen?

I read somewhere that vossy wants to have two ruckmen in the team splitting the workload 60/40, as opposed to having leuy spending 80% of gametime in the ruck like last year.

Does this mean we will have 4 talls in our fowardline?

That is one of the big questions everyone is waiting an answer for. Hopefully we will get an idea come NAB Cup.